Carson Wentz discussion: no new topics about Wentz.

[NYEagle]

Just now, E-A-G-L-E-S Eagles said:

That's accurate, but it won't be a popular take.  

And...in no way shape or form am I saying Wentz is perfect....a lot of points are true, doesn't get rid of the ball, holds it too long, misses the safe dump off going for the long ball, etc......

[UK_EaglesFan89]

1 minute ago, E-A-G-L-E-S Eagles said:

That's accurate, but it won't be a popular take.  

No it won't be a popular take because Carson is taking most flak for this loss. But that's what I saw too. I don't put those entirely on Carson. 

[EagleJoe8]

5 minutes ago, UK_EaglesFan89 said:

And I think it's clear that he hasn't right? So I think we are approaching a very difficult decision. 

I can’t say it’s clear in all fairness. I don’t like to make an absolute statement about what’s in another person’s head. I should be clear that I’m speaking hypothetically as if it is the case. 

[E-A-G-L-E-S Eagles]

2 minutes ago, NYEagle said:

And...in no way shape or form am I saying Wentz is perfect....a lot of points are true, doesn't get rid of the ball, holds it too long, misses the safe dump off going for the long ball, etc......

He has to be better and more consistent, for sure.  He needs some help, too.

[E-A-G-L-E-S Eagles]

3 minutes ago, UK_EaglesFan89 said:

No it won't be a popular take because Carson is taking most flak for this loss. But that's what I saw too. I don't put those entirely on Carson. 

Franchis QBs take the flak and I am sure that he is.  It just doesn't take too much review to see the flaming pile of dog ish that was around him for a large stretch of the game.  I know you see that, too.

[UK_EaglesFan89]

2 minutes ago, EagleJoe8 said:

I can’t say it’s clear in all fairness. I don’t like to make an absolute statement about what’s in another person’s head. I should be clear that I’m speaking hypothetically as if it is the case. 

Perhaps not but what we do know is Wentz is not the same QB he was when he went down in LA 3 years ago. He's really streaky and has been ever since. And he's not making adjustments to improve areas of his game. 

Just now, E-A-G-L-E-S Eagles said:

Franchis QBs take the flak and I am sure that he is.  It just doesn't take too much review to see the flaming pile of dog ish that was around him for a large stretch of the game.  I know you see that, too.

Oh I absolutely see that and I'm not arguing that. Wentz was a big issue yesterday but he wasn't the only big issue.

[time2rock]

22 minutes ago, NYEagle said:

Actually, my first impression on both of the Int's were motherf'er.....Wentz, then in looking at the replays.....both were good plays by the DB, but.....both were thrown to rookie WR's that did not come back to the ball.  It really is easy to blame Wentz, but the WR's were mostly at fault on both Int's.  

In both cases they were poorly placed throws.  He continues to struggle with accuracy and touch, not just sailing the ball over the heads of receivers like he did with Hightower on that screen but throws low or behind receivers on crossing routes, etc.  

[UK_EaglesFan89]

3 minutes ago, time2rock said:

In both cases they were poorly placed throws.  He continues to struggle with accuracy and touch, not just sailing the ball over the heads of receivers like he did with Hightower on that screen but throws low or behind receivers on crossing routes, etc.  

And he's not improving on any of those things! And he's not improving on the fumbles either. 

[nipples]

Here is where I stand on Wentz. I think he’s a good QB, but wildly inconsistent with his accuracy. He still has the same glaring weaknesses since day 1: sailing throws high far too often, holding the ball too long, taking bad sacks trying to make a play instead of just getting the ball out. Being that he still hasn’t fixed those huge holes in his game after 5 years, I have to say that I no longer believe he is the guy. 
 

I’m not saying to bench him, because Hurts clearly isn’t ready and Suds definitely isn’t the answer. But I just don’t have much hope for him figuring it out anymore, and unless he magically fixes his glaring weaknesses throughout the season, I think an open competition in camp next year between him and Hurts would be justified. 

[time2rock]

28 minutes ago, nipples said:

Here is where I stand on Wentz. I think he’s a good QB, but wildly inconsistent with his accuracy. He still has the same glaring weaknesses since day 1: sailing throws high far too often, holding the ball too long, taking bad sacks trying to make a play instead of just getting the ball out. Being that he still hasn’t fixed those huge holes in his game after 5 years, I have to say that I no longer believe he is the guy. 

That's pretty much exactly where I am with Wentz as well.  It's extremely unfortunate ... I've been a big fan since we drafted him, but entering year 5 (minor correction to your post, he has only played 4 years thus far) he should have a lot of those issues corrected.  I, too, am losing any faith I once had in him.

[nicks]

Clearly Rams made right move! Better front office...Wentz is static-same mistakes year in and year out...WHEN he isn't hurt  He is a good QB that occasionally

 makes the great play

[birdman#12]

10 hours ago, T-1000 said:

He isn't an elite QB, he's just a good QB who can be very good for stretches. 2017 was an outlier. I realize the OL was horrendous today and the running game didn't exist. That being said, Wentz missed several throws badly when he had opportunities. He also didn't see a lot of open guys down field. These are the same things he has been doing for years, and things a 5th year QB shouldn't be doing. Hopefully he has a good enough year that they can trade him for some value to a QB starved team in the offseason, and that Hurts can be coached up and developed over the next 12 months.

LMAO......again, the lack of understanding a QB and QB play is hilarious.......

[Walkdawalk]

I love the Eagles and believe in Dougie P but there was a reason they took Hurts in the second round...if im honest i am really starting to sour on Wentz dude holds on to the ball way to long and when he does throw it he throws wildly high. Tbh he has about 2 or 3 good throws a game and if they win everyone will hype up those throws like crazy....eh just pissed I guess long season ahead. 

[nicks]

Fly Enablers Fly on the Road to 7-9(not bad enough to get Lawrence)

[EaglesRocker97]

There are several things at play here, but they seem glaringly obvious to me.

First, he's clearly been coddled by the organization. He's been anointed the starter from day one, and despite Foles' success in his absence, Wentz never had to feel like he had to fight for his job. It's never been contingent on performance, and they've created a situation where it seems established that the starting job is owed to him, rather than having to earn it.

Secondly, there has never seemed to be much of an internal effort to challenge Wentz from a football standpoint and coach him up to his potential. I believe it was only two years ago that we heard Wentz was not getting along with his QB coach (DeFelippo) over trying to fix his mechanics and, more generally, that he has a history of getting into arguments with his coaches. At the end of season, they lost two coaches (DeFelippo and Reich) with the stature and cajones to challenge Wentz  to be better, as well as the skill needed to gameplan around him. Rather than hire on new coaches with a similar willingness and ability to challenge Wentz, the FO opted to promote internally, elevating guys who lacked the reputation and qualifications (Groh and Taylor) to coach an NFL QB and command the respect of a seemingly entitled prospect like Wentz.

Finally, Wentz just seems to lack the composure and wherewithal to handle the exigencies of being a starting QB in the NFL. His on-field awareness at times is terrible, and that's not something you really can teach. Beyond that, though, it's his attitude that I find most concerning. I said this is the GDT yesterday, but Wentz just has some of the worst body language I've ever seen in a franchise QB. He does not handle disappointment well on the field. After every poor drive, it seems that Wentz is always visibly frustrated, then he walks over dejectedly to the bench, isolates himself, throws a towel over his head, and stares at a tablet until the next series. There's no communication with coaches or teammates about how to fix things, no high-fiving guys and lifting their spirits. To the contrary, it seems that Wentz's teammates have to come find him sulking on the bench to try to lift him up, and the coaches seem to content to just let him figure things out on his own. God forbid one of them ask Wentz "What the hell were you thinking out there?" when he makes a boneheaded play. God forbid they actually make their first-round pick earn a massive contract extension instead of just giving him $30m/yr. like it's nothing.

The problem is that this has never been about maximizing Went'z potential by instilling in him the knowledge and discipline needed to succeed at the position. It hasn't been about getting good ROI for your top prospect. Instead, it's been about protecting him, showing him love, and constantly reassuring him that he's the starter. At times, it's been an exercise in emotional support rather than athletic development. The truth is that, coming up through a small school in ND, Wentz never really had to work hard to be successful on the field; his god-given physical traits were enough for him to succeed playing with kids who were nowhere near the athletic specimen that he was. But the NFL is the great equalizer where everyone eventually finds out that they, too, need to constantly work on their craft to compete among the best of the best.

Like anyone else, Wentz needs to really put his nose to the grindstone to be great in the NFL, and the organization needs to challenge him to do so. He needs to be held accountable. But with Wentz, there seems to be this contentment within the organization to let him rest on his unearned laurels. The FO and coaching staff seem beholden to this aura of Wentz as the franchise QB, like they owe Wentz a job rather than Wentz owing the organization a commitment to excellence. Honestly, who could blame the guy for having a sense of entitlement by this point? It's practically been cultivated. This is how you breed complacency and aloofness in a young NFL star and squander prime talent.

I haven't given up on Wentz, but I'm very concerned.  The potential is there, but I just don't know if this organization has the common sense and chutzpah to get it out of him. They're not doing him any favors.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, NYEagle said:

Actually, my first impression on both of the Int's were motherf'er.....Wentz, then in looking at the replays.....both were good plays by the DB, but.....both were thrown to rookie WR's that did not come back to the ball.  It really is easy to blame Wentz, but the WR's were mostly at fault on both Int's.  

I said that in the game day thread   Rookie, gotta come back to the ball.

[Cochis_Calhoun]

2 hours ago, NYEagle said:

Actually, my first impression on both of the Int's were motherf'er.....Wentz, then in looking at the replays.....both were good plays by the DB, but.....both were thrown to rookie WR's that did not come back to the ball.  It really is easy to blame Wentz, but the WR's were mostly at fault on both Int's.  

On the Ints, the one to Reagor is one that if it was Foles, Kolb or Vick would have been called a slight underthrow, I think on both the WR's played it soft and let the DB take it.  I'd also make the same point the commentators made, on the second one especially the DB knew what was coming before the throw was made, now part of that is Wentz staring down receivers but another part of it is, like a lot of us were saying last year, it's getting to the point where I can make a fair guess at the play that's coming, if I can pro footballers  and d coordinators definitely can.

At this stage we probably owe an apology to the offensive coordinators since Reich left the building, because it's pretty clear at this point you could put Don Shula and Vince Lombardi in as joint offensive coordinators and Doug wouldn't listen to them either.

[nipples]

7 minutes ago, downundermike said:

I said that in the game day thread   Rookie, gotta come back to the ball.

Even if they come back to the ball, still a good chance they are picked, and best case is an incomplete in a near pick. They were both bad decisions, failing to read where the defender was. The one to Reagor, though a bad decision, had a SMALL chance at completion if he throws it out in front instead of under throwing. 

[ManchesterEagle]

1 hour ago, nipples said:

Here is where I stand on Wentz. I think he’s a good QB, but wildly inconsistent with his accuracy. He still has the same glaring weaknesses since day 1: sailing throws high far too often, holding the ball too long, taking bad sacks trying to make a play instead of just getting the ball out. Being that he still hasn’t fixed those huge holes in his game after 5 years, I have to say that I no longer believe he is the guy. 
 

I’m not saying to bench him, because Hurts clearly isn’t ready and Suds definitely isn’t the answer. But I just don’t have much hope for him figuring it out anymore, and unless he magically fixes his glaring weaknesses throughout the season, I think an open competition in camp next year between him and Hurts would be justified. 

 

41 minutes ago, time2rock said:

That's pretty much exactly where I am with Wentz as well.  It's extremely unfortunate ... I've been a big fan since we drafted him, but entering year 5 (minor correction to your post, he has only played 4 years thus far) he should have a lot of those issues corrected.  I, too, am losing any faith I once had in him.

Here’s where I am with Wentz:

1) He’s been elite for two stretches. 2017 and end of 2019. He’s been good at other times but inconsistent.

2) Interceptions have never been an issue with Wentz and I don’t expect them to be in the future. Those interceptions yesterday were dangerous throws, particularly given the game situation, but the receivers didn’t help him.

3) Sacks and fumbles are an issue. His pocket presence and awareness is not good and he holds on way too long a lot of the time. What is more frustrating is that I genuinely thought he had developed at the end of last year where he got the ball out early and often and let Sanders/Scott etc make plays after the catch. 
 

4) I actually think Jeffery will help if he can get back. Wentz trusts him, he runs proper routes and can put muscle DBs. Wentz clearly has no trust whatsoever in JJAW.

5) The O-Line was poor yesterday, but when you pay a franchise QB they need to overcome weaknesses around them. Rodgers, Wilson and Brady have for years.

6) People need to accept that Hurts was not drafted to be a back-up/gadget guy. He is an alternate plan. Wentz has this year to prove he can stay healthy and play like a franchise guy. I hope he turns it around.

 

[nipples]

24 minutes ago, nicks said:

Fly Enablers Fly on the Road to 7-9(not bad enough to get Lawrence)

Lawrence isn’t going to be  crap in the NFL, so I’m fine with that part of it. 

[nipples]

1 minute ago, ManchesterEagle said:

 

Here’s where I am with Wentz:

1) He’s been elite for two stretches. 2017 and end of 2019. He’s been good at other times but inconsistent.

2) Interceptions have never been an issue with Wentz and I don’t expect them to be in the future. Those interceptions yesterday were dangerous throws, particularly given the game situation, but the receivers didn’t help him.

3) Sacks and fumbles are an issue. His pocket presence and awareness is not good and he holds on way too long a lot of the time. What is more frustrating is that I genuinely thought he had developed at the end of last year where he got the ball out early and often and let Sanders/Scott etc make plays after the catch. 
 

4) I actually think Jeffery will help if he can get back. Wentz trusts him, he runs proper routes and can put muscle DBs. Wentz clearly has no trust whatsoever in JJAW.

5) The O-Line was poor yesterday, but when you pay a franchise QB they need to overcome weaknesses around them. Rodgers, Wilson and Brady have for years.

6) People need to accept that Hurts was not drafted to be a back-up/gadget guy. He is an alternate plan. Wentz has this year to prove he can stay healthy and play like a franchise guy. I hope he turns it around.

 

Agreed on all fronts. I think there is more to the Hurts pick than what they are saying. He’s plan B if Wentz doesn’t show improvement. 

[ManchesterEagle]

2 minutes ago, nipples said:

Agreed on all fronts. I think there is more to the Hurts pick than what they are saying. He’s plan B if Wentz doesn’t show improvement. 

Yeah, or if he gets hurt again. 

[EazyEaglez]

What some people don’t want to admit was what you saw yesterday from Carson was a lot of the same of what you saw last season but in reverse. He and the offense would have atrociously slow starts only to have breakneck second halves. You remember him fondly because his finishes were always better than his starts. This year in this game you had the reverse where he started fast and finished poorly. He’s been this erratic player for sometime now. It’s just magnified, because it’s not how you star, it’s how you finish. 

[nipples]

I’ll go one step further and say that I get the impression Wentz leash is getting short. I don’t think they will yank him unless he really plays like crap for a long stretch, but I also don’t think he automatically gets his job back when he is ready to go if he does get injured again. If he goes down, and Hurts come in playing good football for a few games... I think they take the opportunity to let it play out and stick with the "hot hand.”

[EazyEaglez]

2 hours ago, NYEagle said:

And...in no way shape or form am I saying Wentz is perfect....a lot of points are true, doesn't get rid of the ball, holds it too long, misses the safe dump off going for the long ball, etc......

I agree, but it’s also true his coach was just as horrible as he was and failed to do him any services in this game.