DBW Posted June 12, 2022 Share Posted June 12, 2022 1 hour ago, Iggles_Phan said: Look what the Phillies have done since Girardi was fired. Maybe that was the right move. They won 8 games in a row before today since firing Girardi. Is that a coincidence? Maybe. Hard to prove that right now though. Time will tell. For the record I wasn’t impressed with girardi either but he a WS winning coach with a strong record. Granted the Yankees bought a lot of wins but it wasn’t like he was garbage. The local media was yes Charlie Manuel fired for a while too and now arguably he’s the beloved coach in the city. Moreso than doug, who the media never wanted as a coach to begin with and quickly turned on him again as he struggled to return to the SB. Every flyers coach feels the wrath and the media here doesn’t even know or understand hockey. Like I said. Worst sports media in the nation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThinkGreen Posted June 12, 2022 Share Posted June 12, 2022 7 minutes ago, eagle45 said: Drew Brees is a HOF qb who was unquestionably not a big talent. He succeeded despite natural talent. In his prime, Brees was a passing threat, as a qb should be. https://youtu.be/lSf8EQzK-AU Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shalodeep Posted June 12, 2022 Share Posted June 12, 2022 19 minutes ago, brkmsn said: He was a "phenom" in college. Plenty of football fans were talking him up during his career. There were questions about his size coming into the NFL, just like with Wilson. This time, I'll actually ask you, how old were you when Brees was drafted? We can absolutely compare stats from different eras --- especially something as recent as Brees and McNabb. Dan Marino was passing for 5000 yards before 5000 yards was cool. You guys act like it wasn't there for the taking. If Andy Reid had been a head coach in the 80s, the NFL would have had at least 1 more team that didn't believe you needed to balance the run and pass. When considering a guy like Jalen Hurts, explain why we can't compare him to players of an older era, since in your mind he doesn't resemble today's "elite" passing QBs. I was 14 I believe and had actively watched college and NFL for about 6 years. Was I as involved as I am now? No, but I remember Vick getting drafted #1 overall and no other QB was drafted in the first round. Brees size was a problem, the spread offense was the question and his deep ball. Doesn't change the fact his short to mid field accuracy was the selling point and mobility was a bonus. Now comparing stats from different eras....you obviously lack any understanding of context. What Marino did in 84 wasn't done again for 24 years after all the rules began to change to favor offenses. Brees has the record for the most 5k seasons so comparing to him is adorable. The rules are so lenient Winston has one....you can't honestly compare anything from the early 2000s to now, let alone the 80s. You are good at making points on the surface, but it's paper thin to anyone who can use Google. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brkmsn Posted June 13, 2022 Share Posted June 13, 2022 4 minutes ago, Shalodeep said: Now comparing stats from different eras....you obviously lack any understanding of context. No, I just don't believe in every cliche fans want to use in arguments. The reason Marino passed for 5000 yards was because his defense sucked and they had no balance on offense during a time when balanced offenses and strong defenses were what everybody else strived for. Other teams could have emulated the Dolphins offensively, but why would they when the Dolphins weren't a model of Super Bowl champs? Another high volume passing team from the old days was the Chargers (Air Coryell) who also have nothing to show for it. There has been innovation on both offense and defense over the years. Most of the infractions haven't changed, but emphasis on enforcement has varied from year to year. The biggest changes in the NFL over the last 3 decades have been those made in regard to player safety. College football has had more drastic changes as the coaching has advanced and teams are relying more on the pass than they did a couple decades ago. I believe the NFL has seen an influx of good prospects for passing offenses and that has led to more passing in the NFL as well. It used to be rare for a team to have more than one good WR. Now it's rare for a team to have only one good WR. Through all the change, one thing remains the same --- QBs tend to get better over time. Rookies usually look like rookies and seasoned veterans aren't usually making rookie mistakes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iggles_Phan Posted June 13, 2022 Share Posted June 13, 2022 1 hour ago, brkmsn said: He was a "phenom" in college. Plenty of football fans were talking him up during his (college) career. There were questions about his size coming into the NFL, just like with Wilson. This time, I'll actually ask you, how old were you when Brees was drafted? We can absolutely compare stats from different eras --- especially something as recent as Brees and McNabb. Dan Marino was passing for 5000 yards before 5000 yards was cool. You guys act like it wasn't there for the taking. If Andy Reid had been a head coach in the 80s, the NFL would have had at least 1 more team that didn't believe you needed to balance the run and pass. When considering a guy like Jalen Hurts, explain why we can't compare him to players of an older era, since in your mind he doesn't resemble today's "elite" passing QBs. Recent? That was 20 years ago. In the NFL, that's an eternity. Marino threw for 5000 yards once. Never sniffed it again, nor did anyone else for a very long time (NFL time spans). Get out of here with this nonsense. Here's the thing... if you don't understand why comparing Hurts' aggregate stats now to stats for players from an era before ALL THE RULES were skewed in the direction of making it much much easier to pad stats, I can't explain it to you. It is pretty much self-evident. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shalodeep Posted June 13, 2022 Share Posted June 13, 2022 20 minutes ago, brkmsn said: No, I just don't believe in every cliche fans want to use in arguments. The reason Marino passed for 5000 yards was because his defense sucked and they had no balance on offense during a time when balanced offenses and strong defenses were what everybody else strived for. Other teams could have emulated the Dolphins offensively, but why would they when the Dolphins weren't a model of Super Bowl champs? Another high volume passing team from the old days was the Chargers (Air Coryell) who also have nothing to show for it. There has been innovation on both offense and defense over the years. Most of the infractions haven't changed, but emphasis on enforcement has varied from year to year. The biggest changes in the NFL over the last 3 decades have been those made in regard to player safety. College football has had more drastic changes as the coaching has advanced and teams are relying more on the pass than they did a couple decades ago. I believe the NFL has seen an influx of good prospects for passing offenses and that has led to more passing in the NFL as well. It used to be rare for a team to have more than one good WR. Now it's rare for a team to have only one good WR. Through all the change, one thing remains the same --- QBs tend to get better over time. Rookies usually look like rookies and seasoned veterans aren't usually making rookie mistakes. And you believe the rule changes haven't allowed for the influx of numbers we've seen? That wide receivers not being touched hasn't created the perfect environment for passing offenses to flourish? And you are right! QBs do get better over time....and the basement for QBs had climbed significantly higher....hence why in the early 2000s Hurts numbers would of made him a star....but they now make him very very replaceable...hell by someone on the bench. Your unwillingness to see the difference from the early 2000s to now is how you can continue to defend a guy who averages in the 20s in all passing rankings this year Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iggles_Phan Posted June 13, 2022 Share Posted June 13, 2022 1 hour ago, DBW said: Time will tell. For the record I wasn’t impressed with girardi either but he a WS winning coach with a strong record. Granted the Yankees bought a lot of wins but it wasn’t like he was garbage. The local media was yes Charlie Manuel fired for a while too and now arguably he’s the beloved coach in the city. Moreso than doug, who the media never wanted as a coach to begin with and quickly turned on him again as he struggled to return to the SB. Every flyers coach feels the wrath and the media here doesn’t even know or understand hockey. Like I said. Worst sports media in the nation. It is always easier when you have a massive talent advantage. It is likely sacrilege to say for some folks to see it, but Nick Saban doesn't strike me as the GOAT college coach, because he's ALWAYS got a talent advantage on just about anyone he faces. Ultimately, if he loses a 5 star recruit to an injury, he's got a younger 5 star recruit right behind him to fill the gap. Coaching the Yankees back when Girardi did, they always had an advantage over the competition. An average chef can turn out a great meal if he has the best ingredients. BUT, the best chefs can turn out a great meal, even with average ingredients. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brkmsn Posted June 13, 2022 Share Posted June 13, 2022 26 minutes ago, Shalodeep said: And you believe the rule changes haven't allowed for the influx of numbers we've seen? That wide receivers not being touched hasn't created the perfect environment for passing offenses to flourish? And you are right! QBs do get better over time....and the basement for QBs had climbed significantly higher....hence why in the early 2000s Hurts numbers would of made him a star....but they now make him very very replaceable...hell by someone on the bench 27 minutes ago, Iggles_Phan said: from an era before ALL THE RULES were skewed in the direction of making it much much easier to pad stats All the rules, eh? In 2003, the NFL was allowing the players to play --- specifically, they allowed Carolina's DBs to get away with a lot. This was not how the NFL enforced rules in the 80s or 90s. But in 2003 a conscious decision was made before the season to not slow the games down with too many penalties. After reviewing complaints from several teams, an emphasis was placed back on calling the blatant infractions the next season. When I watch games today and compare them to games from older eras, what I see today are a bunch of DBs that never turn their heads around and QBs throwing more 50/50 balls knowing this. I don't see the officiating having near the impact you are claiming. I just see more bad coverage in general and more teams that game plan to take advantage of it. Analytics have changed offensive philosophies much more than rule changes. Per my example (2003), I do believe that rule enforcement will vary from season to season, but it's not like a constant push in one direction. It goes back and forth. One year you would be flagged for having a hand on the receiver early ... currently it's allowed as long as it isn't impeding progress. If the NFL really is trying to pad passing stats, then why did we have 7 or 8 passing TDs called back due to penalty last season? Maybe because the argument is closer to myth than reality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eagle45 Posted June 13, 2022 Share Posted June 13, 2022 2 hours ago, ThinkGreen said: In his prime, Brees was a passing threat, as a qb should be. https://youtu.be/lSf8EQzK-AU He’s one of the greatest passing threats of all time. But he was short with an uninspiring arm, so his natural talent didn’t jump off the page. That’s why he was a 2nd round pick. And as with all other outstanding/great QBs compared to Hurts, they are united in their common weaknesses and have no common strenghts. Josh Allen…sucked in year 2. Just like Hurts. We leave out the raw 6’5” talent with a near historic arm that Hurts lacks. Brees…short, ordinary arm. Just like Hurts. We leave out the release, accuracy, and ability to read a defense that are all crippling weaknesses for Hurts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iggles_Phan Posted June 13, 2022 Share Posted June 13, 2022 36 minutes ago, brkmsn said: All the rules, eh? In 2003, the NFL was allowing the players to play --- specifically, they allowed Carolina's DBs to get away with a lot. This was not how the NFL enforced rules in the 80s or 90s. But in 2003 a conscious decision was made before the season to not slow the games down with too many penalties. After reviewing complaints from several teams, an emphasis was placed back on calling the blatant infractions the next season. When I watch games today and compare them to games from older eras, what I see today are a bunch of DBs that never turn their heads around and QBs throwing more 50/50 balls knowing this. I don't see the officiating having near the impact you are claiming. I just see more bad coverage in general and more teams that game plan to take advantage of it. Analytics have changed offensive philosophies much more than rule changes. Per my example (2003), I do believe that rule enforcement will vary from season to season, but it's not like a constant push in one direction. It goes back and forth. One year you would be flagged for having a hand on the receiver early ... currently it's allowed as long as it isn't impeding progress. If the NFL really is trying to pad passing stats, then why did we have 7 or 8 passing TDs called back due to penalty last season? Maybe because the argument is closer to myth than reality. . Ok. We're done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shalodeep Posted June 13, 2022 Share Posted June 13, 2022 36 minutes ago, 4for4EaglesNest said: You’re wasting your time. He’s as dense as they come. Yeah I think I'm done at this point. No point of being dragged down to his level just to be beat with experience. It's like arguing with a woman. Hard to fight someone without rationale Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eagle45 Posted June 13, 2022 Share Posted June 13, 2022 4 hours ago, DBW said: There are certainly some who are worse than others at their witch hunts. Angelo backed off after he realized knowledgeable nfl guys think highly of jalen. De camera has since changed his opinion as well and is now a "wait and see” guy despite crying for his benching most of last season. There are others I did not mention but those are the more widely followed I suppose. It’s Philly - the backup qbs and goaltenders are the favorites and every coach should be fired the second they don’t win every game by 40 pts or 5 goals. Look what they did to girardi after what they did to Kapler. Giants look pretty good right now don’t they? It’s just how it is around here. Worst sports media city to be in. How many times in the last 5 decades has Philly had a QB or goaltender who didn’t eventually need to be shown the door (while tread was still on the tires) for a fresh chance at the position? I’m going to go with never. The flame of the media burns hotter than in some cities, but it’s really no worse than NY, Boston, Chicago, Dallas (for football), or even a few others. If you’re not winning, you’ll get tough questions. If the team is winning and you aren’t playing well, you’ll get tough questions. If you are a starting QB, Flyers captain, top 2 featured player on the 76ers, paid to be a #1 starter or elite bat on the Phillies……and you are NOT elite…then you will be dogged for it and will be THE topic of every conversion. And that goes for a lot of cities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DBW Posted June 13, 2022 Share Posted June 13, 2022 2 hours ago, eagle45 said: How many times in the last 5 decades has Philly had a QB or goaltender who didn’t eventually need to be shown the door (while tread was still on the tires) for a fresh chance at the position? I’m going to go with never. The flame of the media burns hotter than in some cities, but it’s really no worse than NY, Boston, Chicago, Dallas (for football), or even a few others. If you’re not winning, you’ll get tough questions. If the team is winning and you aren’t playing well, you’ll get tough questions. If you are a starting QB, Flyers captain, top 2 featured player on the 76ers, paid to be a #1 starter or elite bat on the Phillies……and you are NOT elite…then you will be dogged for it and will be THE topic of every conversion. And that goes for a lot of cities. Bobrovsky while he hasn’t won a cup has had several solid seasons with other teams. He didn’t need to go anywhere. But the fans and media cried so much about the goaltender they signed bryz to a lifetime contract and they still pay him to go hunt bears in the woods. I could argue that Wentz was shown the door for that fresh start you mention. How many people didn’t want him gone? The media turned on him so hard the organization had no choice. it’s common place in philly for the media to witch hunt. philly loves the backups. Koy DEtmer, garcia, foles, etc. do you even live here? Have you not paid any attention? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iggles_Phan Posted June 13, 2022 Share Posted June 13, 2022 5 hours ago, DBW said: Bobrovsky while he hasn’t won a cup has had several solid seasons with other teams. He didn’t need to go anywhere. But the fans and media cried so much about the goaltender they signed bryz to a lifetime contract and they still pay him to go hunt bears in the woods. I could argue that Wentz was shown the door for that fresh start you mention. How many people didn’t want him gone? The media turned on him so hard the organization had no choice. it’s common place in philly for the media to witch hunt. philly loves the backups. Koy DEtmer, garcia, foles, etc. do you even live here? Have you not paid any attention? Bobrovsky would be the only goalie I can remember that they let go that they shouldn't have... BUT... was that driven by the media? No. Wentz? That was driven by the media? I'm pretty sure it was driven by the mismanagement by the team, and then Wentz wanted out, I don't remember the media being the one that pushed him out the door. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eagle45 Posted June 13, 2022 Share Posted June 13, 2022 6 hours ago, DBW said: Bobrovsky while he hasn’t won a cup has had several solid seasons with other teams. He didn’t need to go anywhere. But the fans and media cried so much about the goaltender they signed bryz to a lifetime contract and they still pay him to go hunt bears in the woods. I could argue that Wentz was shown the door for that fresh start you mention. How many people didn’t want him gone? The media turned on him so hard the organization had no choice. it’s common place in philly for the media to witch hunt. philly loves the backups. Koy DEtmer, garcia, foles, etc. do you even live here? Have you not paid any attention? I don't think anyone ever wanted Koy Detmer to start. I don't think anyone ever wanted Jeff Garcia as a solution. Patience with Mcnabb was wearing thin and his resume as a choker was getting pretty thick by the time Garcia had his little run, so that was a breath of fresh air. No one really wanted him. Foles? Well, Foles was a SB MVP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CouchKing Posted June 13, 2022 Share Posted June 13, 2022 The talk up of Jalen Hurts' training and development has me interested to see how he has developed. Combined with mostly radio silence on my favorite QBs (Minshew and Strong)... I await with anticipation the new 2022 version and always improving Jalen Hurts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eagle45 Posted June 13, 2022 Share Posted June 13, 2022 https://www.britannica.com/science/infinite-series Please read for a very crude and basic explanation of Jalen Hurts' improvement as he relentlessly approaches the designation of "still not good enough." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swoop Posted June 13, 2022 Share Posted June 13, 2022 To try and further demonstrate how foolish this argument is by comparing wildly different eras, I went back to 2005, when rules were starting to change slightly. There were two QBs with over 4,000 passing yards. There were only 11 QBs that had 20 or more passing TDs, with only one of those being in the 30s. There were 15 QBs above 60% completion percentage. Compared to this past season, that had: Ten QBs that tossed over 4,000 yards, two of which were over 5,000. There were 18 QBs that had 20 or more passing TDs, with several in the 30s and some being in the 40s. There were 29 QBs who had a completion percentage of higher than 60%. The data is there. If you can't see or understand why comparing two different eras is foolish or why it's wildly easier now you should probably stop watching football. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vileborg Posted June 13, 2022 Share Posted June 13, 2022 8 hours ago, DBW said: Bobrovsky while he hasn’t won a cup has had several solid seasons with other teams. He didn’t need to go anywhere. But the fans and media cried so much about the goaltender they signed bryz to a lifetime contract and they still pay him to go hunt bears in the woods. I could argue that Wentz was shown the door for that fresh start you mention. How many people didn’t want him gone? The media turned on him so hard the organization had no choice. it’s common place in philly for the media to witch hunt. philly loves the backups. Koy DEtmer, garcia, foles, etc. do you even live here? Have you not paid any attention? Do you guys forget how bad Wentz got? He couldn't even hit a target ten feet away without it being behind them. His accuracy dropped to 57% in 2020 so even at 59% Jalen was better. Jalen at least could also place the ball ten feet away so the player could get up field. Jalen had issues but they were better than Wentz issues. Sounds like Jalen is at least addressing his issues which was the biggest issue with Wentz. After 2017, his head got so big nobody could tell him nothing and he refused to fix his ish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThinkGreen Posted June 13, 2022 Share Posted June 13, 2022 17 hours ago, DBW said: There are certainly some who are worse than others at their witch hunts. Angelo backed off after he realized knowledgeable nfl guys think highly of jalen. De camera has since changed his opinion as well and is now a "wait and see” guy despite crying for his benching most of last season. There are others I did not mention but those are the more widely followed I suppose. It’s Philly - the backup qbs and goaltenders are the favorites and every coach should be fired the second they don’t win every game by 40 pts or 5 goals. Look what they did to girardi after what they did to Kapler. Giants look pretty good right now don’t they? It’s just how it is around here. Worst sports media city to be in. That is true. I recently said how much better Drew Brees was but he's had a lot of mediocre seasons, and they stuck with him. Romo in Dallas and D. Carr in Oakland/LV would've been on the chopping block in no time, had they been in Philly. Our only SB, we lucked into. The plan wasn't exactly to split the season between two QBs but that's what happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shalodeep Posted June 13, 2022 Share Posted June 13, 2022 1 hour ago, Vileborg said: Do you guys forget how bad Wentz got? He couldn't even hit a target ten feet away without it being behind them. His accuracy dropped to 57% in 2020 so even at 59% Jalen was better. Jalen at least could also place the ball ten feet away so the player could get up field. Jalen had issues but they were better than Wentz issues. Sounds like Jalen is at least addressing his issues which was the biggest issue with Wentz. After 2017, his head got so big nobody could tell him nothing and he refused to fix his ish. He was absolutely awful. One of the worst seasons a vet has had in my lifetime....we can all agree it was so damn bad..... Threw same amount of touchdowns as Hurts did last year in less games lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eagle45 Posted June 13, 2022 Share Posted June 13, 2022 18 hours ago, Iggles_Phan said: Look what the Phillies have done since Girardi was fired. Maybe that was the right move. They won 8 games in a row before today since firing Girardi. Is that a coincidence? Maybe. Hard to prove that right now though. The Phillies are who they are, which is also what they were. They are better than they looked earlier on this season and worse than they look right now. Firing Girardi definitely gave them a kick in the ass that spurred this hot streak…but with or without Girardi…they were always going to regress/climb to the same mean over the course of the season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iggles_Phan Posted June 13, 2022 Share Posted June 13, 2022 3 hours ago, eagle45 said: The Phillies are who they are, which is also what they were. They are better than they looked earlier on this season and worse than they look right now. Firing Girardi definitely gave them a kick in the ass that spurred this hot streak…but with or without Girardi…they were always going to regress/climb to the same mean over the course of the season. I don't disagree, but I also don't think Girardi got a raw deal here either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MF POON Posted June 14, 2022 Share Posted June 14, 2022 On 6/13/2022 at 7:53 AM, eagle45 said: I don't think anyone ever wanted Koy Detmer to start. I don't think anyone ever wanted Jeff Garcia as a solution. Patience with Mcnabb was wearing thin and his resume as a choker was getting pretty thick by the time Garcia had his little run, so that was a breath of fresh air. No one really wanted him. Foles? Well, Foles was a SB MVP. I didn't really view McNabb as a choker so much as Reid was just pitiful in big games. He's got one of the best QB's in the league now, and he barely won a SB and choked the championship game away last year. Fans know that JJ's defenses carried us because we had 0 receivers for McNabb to throw to. If Westbrook was hurt, we were done for, which I think legit happened a couple of playoff runs. Also, I seem to remember many fans wanting Garcia to take McNabb's place as the starting QB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talonblood Posted June 14, 2022 Share Posted June 14, 2022 Hurts gets 3/4 of this year to prove he isn't a fraud. If he proves he is an NFL QB, great. If not.... no more talk about him. Pooooof. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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