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Rob331

Another viewpoint on Howie

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Let's get it straight, I understand I have a viewpoint that is not in the mainstream but here's my take. 

The problem with prior Eagles drafts hasn't been Howie, it's been the coaching staff. Except for offensive linemen like Mailata and Herbig, name an Eagle who got better under Pederson and his staff.  Still waiting.  Here are some glaring examples of good players floundering under bad coaching. Wentz - he regressed. Sanders - he regressed, Goedert - he regressed. Maddox - he regressed. Rasul never developed, Sidney never developed, Barnett never got better, and it goes on. JJAW - a consensus good pick until Doug's coaches got hold of him. Fulgham - worse as time went on. Gerry never got better. Even our kicker got worse over time. 

This actually goes back to the Chip Kelly days and the fact that Doug kept so many of Chip's assistant coaches doomed the young players.  They might have been good with vets, but terrible with young guys. 

So even if we disagree, let's at least acknowledge that a good draft pick can be stifled or even ruined by a lack of good coaching and that lack of good coaching except for Stout has been here for all of Doug's tenure. 

 

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Totally agree on the lack of player development, but Howie has been an issue at times.

Howie's Issues

On ITB, they talked about last year's draft how he went off script and took Reagor and Hurts even though there were other players higher on their board and disregarded the input from the other organizational groups. So that type of situation is all on him. Also, as a GM he has to create a functional system that integrates the various parts of the organization. In the podcast, they discussed how his interpersonal skills sometimes sows discord amongst the groups and creates a situation where the parts are working against each other versus with each other. I think after Doug was fired, he is trying to make a concerted effort to fix this issue. Which is why in his press conferences, you will hear him drop catch phrases about "pulling in the same direction."

It is his responsibility to get the coaching, scouting, and analytic staff heading the a similar direction. Doesn't mean they all agree, but they should have a shared vision for the team and communicate effectively on how to get there. Maybe he's learning to improve in this area. Only time will tell.

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Howie suffers from "The smartest man in the room" syndrome. We used to be able to say well at least he's good with the cap but we can't say that anymore. What is Howie really good at? Preserving his own hide.

 

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I think that’s the main reason Doug got fired. Can’t expect to rebuild a young team with a coaching staff that struggles with player development. Certainly Howie is also at fault, but you’re right that our last coaching staff struggled in that area.

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3 hours ago, Rob331 said:

Except for offensive linemen like Mailata and Herbig, name an Eagle who got better under Pederson and his staff.  Still waiting. 

I think an argument could be made for:

 

 

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Player development had been a really sore spot under the previous coaching regime for sure.  But Howie’s drafts have also been pretty bad overall.  It doesn’t have to be one or the other ... it is both.  ;)

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/agree its both.  I am excited to see a new young staff, with new ideas and energy.  Regardless of the record this year I enjoy watching fun football and seeing players emerge and progress.

That was seriously lacking the last few years (especially last year) and it made watching the Eagles painful.  No more old retreads please.  I would rather see a young guy make mistakes and grow vs some old dude with a capped ceiling getting reps.

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I wonder if Howie is going to be picking the game day roster again this year

 

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18 hours ago, Rob331 said:

So even if we disagree, let's at least acknowledge that a good draft pick can be stifled or even ruined by a lack of good coaching and that lack of good coaching except for Stout has been here for all of Doug's tenure. 

So you're right and I agree with you to an extent. Bad coaching absolutely stifles a players development.

However, what players have left the Eagles and gone on to be good nfl players? How many players are now essentially out of the league? And how many players were actually potentially good players but weren't scheme fits? I mean Douglas was a bad pick because he didn't fit the scheme. 

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18 hours ago, Rob331 said:

Sanders - he regressed

Total BS.

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While player development is a vital part of building a winning organization, two huge factors as well are drafting players that mesh with and fit the schemes of the coaching staff and trusting the scouts you have working all year on your draft board.            We'll see how this draft pans out, but Roseman's M.O. and his biggest problem has been his belief that he knows better and picking players based on his own 'feeling', or that of the owner.         

'Smartest guy in the room' syndrome has infected this organization since Lurie hired Reid and Banner, which is where Roseman cut his teeth.        Combined with his own arrogance, that has been what has marked his tenure as GM here, and with the blessing of the owner has been what has run the franchise into the ditch where it currently resides.

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Howie's drafting problem is that they make bad decisions.  I don't think there's a one-size fits all there. They've made bad decisions on productive players, athletic players, players the coaches wanted, players analytics liked etc. I know people like to glorify the scouts but they've been making bad recommendations for years in most organizations. It's why hit rates were never that high across the league to begin with. Sometimes they are right, sometimes they are not. 

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59 minutes ago, Perforator said:

I wonder if Howie is going to be picking the game day roster again this year

 

Outside of bonus considerations it's absurd to have the GM determine the game day roster.

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Whoa, whoa, whoa... Sanders certainly did not regress. He went from 4.6 yards per carry as a rookie to 5.3 YPC last season.
 

 Goedert didn’t "regress” either, he just had some injuries and struggled with garbage QB play last year. 
 

I also take issue with JJAW being a "consensus” good pick. A LOT of people questioned drafting JJAW because he struggled with getting separation even at the college level. 
 

I also disagree that Barnett hasn’t gotten better. He’s added more variety to his pass rush and overall has improved. He’s not a star, but has certainly shown improvement in his game IMO. Injuries have slowed him down. 
 

I think you’re reaching big time in an effort to take the blame off of Howie, for some reason. 
 

 

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Howie is not really a football guy.  He understands value (think he may be an accountant by training).  So he manages the cap, acquires guys cheap, flips picks, etc.  Pretty good at it.  But when it comes to judging players, he needs help.  Someone who is trained to be an evaluator.  Thankfully, in this draft, he finally realized his limitations and left the drafting to his guys who are pretty good as it turns out.  Still inserted himself where he could and made some moves which fortunately worked out.  A little lucky there that Dallas was willing to trade down.

 

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5 minutes ago, Miami said:

Howie is not really a football guy.  He understands value (think he may be an accountant by training).  So he manages the cap, acquires guys cheap, flips picks, etc.  Pretty good at it.  But when it comes to judging players, he needs help.  Someone who is trained to be an evaluator.  Thankfully, in this draft, he finally realized his limitations and left the drafting to his guys who are pretty good as it turns out.  Still inserted himself where he could and made some moves which fortunately worked out.  A little lucky there that Dallas was willing to trade down.

 

Howie is actually a lawyer by trade. Banner was the accountant. 

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Very strong points made by the OP.  I agree, player development has been a MUCH bigger issue than drafting.  Young players can have NFL level talent, but with the wrong coaching and development success is near impossible.  Thats a large reason why Doug was fired, rightfully so.

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5 minutes ago, Miami said:

Howie is not really a football guy.  He understands value (think he may be an accountant by training).  So he manages the cap, acquires guys cheap, flips picks, etc.  Pretty good at it.  But when it comes to judging players, he needs help.  Someone who is trained to be an evaluator.  Thankfully, in this draft, he finally realized his limitations and left the drafting to his guys who are pretty good as it turns out.  Still inserted himself where he could and made some moves which fortunately worked out.  A little lucky there that Dallas was willing to trade down.

 

Howie needs to pair up with a scout-background personnel guy, and/or he take the inputs from the coaches.  He still has the urges to go bargain hunting and trading picks.  In the draft just completed, Howie maybe under the instruction from Lurie to go with the talents and not play the trading games.

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Ugh, the not a football guy is the laziest argument out there. Howie's worked 20 years for an NFL team. I'm sure he understands football and all the nuances. He's just making bad picks as I said before. And that's not me defending him, I've wanted him gone for a while but I just reject any notion that these 'football guy' scouts somehow have some great insight that you can't replicate unless you played backup OL on a DIII college football team.

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26 minutes ago, pgcd3 said:

Howie's worked 20 years for an NFL team.

Doing what? Scouting? Coaching?

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Player development was bad, and player selection was bad. Both things can be true. 

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20 hours ago, Rob331 said:

 

The problem with prior Eagles drafts hasn't been Howie, it's been the coaching staff. Except for offensive linemen like Mailata and Herbig, name an Eagle who got better under Pederson and his staff.  Still waiting.  

 

Fletcher Cox, Brandon Graham, Zach Ertz, Nick Foles, JASON KELCE, Mychal Kendricks was actually finally good toward the end of his tenure with Doug/Schwartz

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3 hours ago, pgcd3 said:

Ugh, the not a football guy is the laziest argument out there. Howie's worked 20 years for an NFL team. I'm sure he understands football and all the nuances. He's just making bad picks as I said before. And that's not me defending him, I've wanted him gone for a while but I just reject any notion that these 'football guy' scouts somehow have some great insight that you can't replicate unless you played backup OL on a DIII college football team.

If you can’t beat (or in Howie’s case fire) him,  join him.   
 

go howie!

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Do not forget that the drafting process has been described as a "collaborative" process between the coaches and the front office types by Lurie, Howie, Joe Douglas and others repeatedly over the years.  The coaches tell the front office people what characteristics they are looking for and work with them to identify the types of players, and ultimate the specific players, they want.  So aside from player development issues, the coaches have a major opportunity to screw up the actual draft selections as well.

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5 minutes ago, BayAreaLennie said:

Do not forget that the drafting process has been described as a "collaborative" process between the coaches and the front office types by Lurie, Howie, Joe Douglas and others repeatedly over the years.  The coaches tell the front office people what characteristics they are looking for and work with them to identify the types of players, and ultimate the specific players, they want.  So aside from player development issues, the coaches have a major opportunity to screw up the actual draft selections as well.

Yes Lurie's philosophy has always been to rely heavily on input from the head coach/other coaches.  Traditional orgs in the past have the GM driving it more with less coach input.  You can find examples of successes and failures on both sides.  Lurie won't change imo. If anything if all this blows up I can see him luring a Lincoln Riley type and giving him full control. 

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