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Kelce Must Be Replaced on Short Yardage

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14 minutes ago, stine said:

  Teams use "Gimmicks" All the time. Reasoning is to lighten up the locker room. Make it fun for the players. I am not saying use a gimmick all the time. I was suggesting that they might try that instead of another that was tried multiple times before and most likely will not work again. Teams use these plays occasionally. I am just saying to put it in the p[lay book and try it once sometime down the road. You are right. Don't do this on a regular basis. The dude is too valuable as the LT. But I see no harm letting him have some fun and possibly help the team at the same time. Your view is teams should NEVER use Gimmicks. They are all absurd. Sure let's take all the fun from the team..... I am sure they would love you as a coach.

You know what's fun.... scoring a TD.   

I didn't say that teams should never use gimmicks... I said that they shouldn't rely on gimmicks.   The answer to the question: Why did the team fail from short yardage last week is not, "Put Mailata at FB".  That's a gimmick.  The answer to the short yardage question needs to be more sustainable than that.  The solution needs to be possible with the base personnel in their base positions.  Throwing in a gimmick on occasion is totally different from that.  Generally, gimmicks like the Philly Special are reserved for when a particular opponent has tipped a tendency that leaves them especially vulnerable to it, not because it seemed like a fun play to try at the time.  

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1 minute ago, Iggles_Phan said:

You know what's fun.... scoring a TD.   

I didn't say that teams should never use gimmicks... I said that they shouldn't rely on gimmicks.   The answer to the question: Why did the team fail from short yardage last week is not, "Put Mailata at FB".  That's a gimmick.  The answer to the short yardage question needs to be more sustainable than that.  The solution needs to be possible with the base personnel in their base positions.  Throwing in a gimmick on occasion is totally different from that.  Generally, gimmicks like the Philly Special are reserved for when a particular opponent has tipped a tendency that leaves them especially vulnerable to it, not because it seemed like a fun play to try at the time.  

  Then we agree. Teams should not use gimmicks all the time. But to put in a play for anyone to try at some point is not a bad thing. I for one, wanted them to do a QB sneak before trying anything else. Use a quick count to try and get a jump on the defense. My thought process for Mailata was to do that instead of the Philly Philly IF they were going to do any gimmick at all.

   We may never see it, but I think it would be fun to see one time down the road is all..... Another idea would be to place Mailata next to Johnson and run the rock behind them. If those two cannot move people off the line of scrimmage, no one can.....

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9 minutes ago, stine said:

  Then we agree. Teams should not use gimmicks all the time. But to put in a play for anyone to try at some point is not a bad thing. I for one, wanted them to do a QB sneak before trying anything else. Use a quick count to try and get a jump on the defense. My thought process for Mailata was to do that instead of the Philly Philly IF they were going to do any gimmick at all.

   We may never see it, but I think it would be fun to see one time down the road is all..... Another idea would be to place Mailata next to Johnson and run the rock behind them. If those two cannot move people off the line of scrimmage, no one can.....

First year coach should be working on the fundamentals and installing his offense.   Game 2.  He should have an arsenal of short yardage plays available to him that aren't on tape yet that he can pull from to get 1 yard.  No need for a gimmick at this stage.  He hasn't developed enough of a history for tendencies to exist.  So, you don't need a gimmick play to break tendencies yet.  And the best gimmicks are plays that don't appear to be gimmicks at all when lining up.  They become gimmicks as the play unfolds.  Line your LT up at FB, and you've created a massive alert to the defense.  

But, I am very against a gimmick in the 2nd game of a coach's tenure.  Almost seemed like he was grasping at straws rather than having a plan.

Now, going unbalanced line... that's another thing altogether.   

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22 hours ago, 4for4EaglesNest said:

Bring back Peters to play LG.    Dickerson at center.  Mailata at QB and Lane Johnson at RG.  Put Fletcher Cox at RB and who cares who plays WR and TE at that point.  

 

 

I think you're onto something.  

Like the Ravens did against the Chiefs.   4th and 1,  the Ravens didn't want to punt to the Chiefs.   It was Lamar + a whole bunch of oline, and Lamar ran, and he got 2 yards and won the game.  Unbalanced line.  I'm not locked into any specific players.  Maybe Mailata.  But the general concept is not new.   I didn't make up JUMBO PACKAGE.  And JUMBO PACKAGE is what you use when it's 1 and goal from the 1.  Hurts is one of the best runners.   The alternative the Eagles used to the Jumbo, was not Jumbo, and the Eagles failed to score and lost the game.

 

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1 hour ago, stine said:

  Not taking Kelce out. That was never on my mind. However, Using a Rugby player to carry a ball is not absurd. When the dude has proven it takes 3-4 people to get him down. Chicago did it with a Defensive tackle. I guess that is absurd also? Even though it worked almost every time? Oh, but to use an offensive Tackle that is used to running with a ball is stupid... I get it.

William Perry carried the ball a total of 8 times in his entire 11 year career. He scored 2 times in the first year he started it. 

So no it didn't work everytime and they basically stopped doing it once teams realized after the first 2 times what he was in there for. 

So fine put Mailata in a couple times and maybe he will get the touchdown or maybe another 300 lb lineman will blow.his.knee up and we lose our left tackle for an entire year. A much more important position then. DT. 

Australian football players don't wear pads which is why they are tackling Mailata up by his arms so of course he is gonna have no problems running through them

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16 minutes ago, Random Reglar said:

Like the Ravens did against the Chiefs.   4th and 1,  the Ravens didn't want to punt to the Chiefs.   It was Lamar + a whole bunch of oline, and Lamar ran, and he got 2 yards and won the game.  Unbalanced line.  I'm not locked into any specific players.  Maybe Mailata.  But the general concept is not new.   I didn't make up JUMBO PACKAGE.  And JUMBO PACKAGE is what you use when it's 1 and goal from the 1.  Hurts is one of the best runners.   The alternative the Eagles used to the Jumbo, was not Jumbo, and the Eagles failed to score and lost the game.

 

Jumbo package is one thing, and is standard in the NFL.  Replacing the center, and moving the LT into the back field makes the play entirely to obvious, and I do not care how big the players are, NFL defenses can stop it if they know exactly what is happening.

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1 hour ago, Iggles_Phan said:

You know what's fun.... scoring a TD.   

I didn't say that teams should never use gimmicks... I said that they shouldn't rely on gimmicks.   The answer to the question: Why did the team fail from short yardage last week is not, "Put Mailata at FB".  That's a gimmick.  The answer to the short yardage question needs to be more sustainable than that.  The solution needs to be possible with the base personnel in their base positions.  Throwing in a gimmick on occasion is totally different from that.  Generally, gimmicks like the Philly Special are reserved for when a particular opponent has tipped a tendency that leaves them especially vulnerable to it, not because it seemed like a fun play to try at the time.  

No,  in short situations,  you do what NFL teams have been doing for many years.  You put in a JUMBO PACKAGE.   It's not a gimmick.  You take out the smaller faster players and you put in the bigger more powerful players.   All responsible teams do that.  The success of this package is not based at all on trickery.  It's pure power.  And it's completely normal, and if a team doesn't do it,  it's negligence.     It's pathetic if you can't score a TD with first and goal from the 1.  It's like the coaching staff was either negligent by not having a jumbo package or was putting ideology first before winning.

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2 minutes ago, Bwestbrook36 said:

William Perry carried the ball a total of 8 times in his entire 11 year career. He scored 2 times in the first year he started it. 

Yep, 8 carries for 5 yards with a long of 2 yards.  So doing the math, that means taking away his long of 2, 7 carries for 3 yards.  So that means 4 times, or half the time, he got zero yards.

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1 minute ago, downundermike said:

Yep, 8 carries for 5 yards with a long of 2 yards.  So doing the math, that means taking away his long of 2, 7 carries for 3 yards.  So that means 4 times, or half the time, he got zero yards.

That guy isn't even an eagles fan he is only here to peddle is running ideas on us cause we have big mobile players. Tell the effing eagles coaches not us we don't control the game plans. 

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5 minutes ago, Bwestbrook36 said:

William Perry carried the ball a total of 8 times in his entire 11 year career. He scored 2 times in the first year he started it. 

So no it didn't work everytime and they basically stopped doing it once teams realized after the first 2 times what he was in there for. 

So fine put Mailata in a couple times and maybe he will get the touchdown or maybe another 300 lb lineman will blow.his.knee up and we lose our left tackle for an entire year. A much more important position then. DT. 

Australian football players don't wear pads which is why they are tackling Mailata up by his arms so of course he is gonna have no problems running through them

LOL, It is illegal to tackle high in Rugby. They typically tackle below the waist... It is for safety as they do not wear helmets... Chances of someone blowing out his knee moving a pile ahead of him 2 yards is next to nil.... Sorry, I have never seen it happen on that type of a run near the goal line. At least not to the RB. I have seen OT's get their knee taken out though.....

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4 minutes ago, downundermike said:

Jumbo package is one thing, and is standard in the NFL.  Replacing the center, and moving the LT into the back field makes the play entirely to obvious, and I do not care how big the players are, NFL defenses can stop it if they know exactly what is happening.

But they don't know exactly what is going to happen,  all they know is a run.  And if you put in your big players,  you should be able to get 1 yard in 4 tries.  Defenses will not be able to stop that.

The Eagles lost because they didn't do that.
 

https://forum.russellstreetreport.com/showthread.php?216168-Zeitler-with-the-key-block

 

there are 2 gifs of that play where the Ravens had 300 pound FB Ricard in the backfield,  and 9 big OL on the line of scrimmage.  it's not a gimmick, it's one team having bigger stronger players out there.  The Ravens picked it up on 4th and 1, and won the game. 

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Forget it!  I was just talking about possibly having it in the playbook and using it at some point down the road. I don't expect or want them to try it more than 1-2 times anyway. Geeze, Relax people!  This came up because the coach used the Philly Philly play which I thought was a bad call. I said this would have been better suited. Move Goddert to LT and Quickly line up Mailata as a FB. No chance for the Defense to react unless they call a TO.  Anyway, there are so many better options than that pass play. QB sneak on a quick count?

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Just now, stine said:

Forget it!  I was just talking about possibly having it in the playbook and using it at some point down the road. I don't expect or want them to try it more than 1-2 times anyway. Geeze, Relax people!  This came up because the coach used the Philly Philly play which I thought was a bad call. I said this would have been better suited. Move Goddert to LT and Quickly line up Mailata as a FB. No chance for the Defense to react unless they call a TO.  Anyway, there are so many better options than that pass play. QB sneak on a quick count?

I don't think that any specific one of those 4 plays was the bad one.  The bad part was not sending in a jumbo package and running forward.  4 chances to get a single yard and the Eagles failed.  Pound the rock with the most powerful players you have on the roster.  The Eagles have a running QB,  so it's not like Mailata needs to be the one who carries the ball,  but you don't leave a bunch of little fast guys on the field when they should be replaced by big powerful guys.

 

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13 minutes ago, stine said:

LOL, It is illegal to tackle high in Rugby. They typically tackle below the waist... It is for safety as they do not wear helmets... Chances of someone blowing out his knee moving a pile ahead of him 2 yards is next to nil.... Sorry, I have never seen it happen on that type of a run near the goal line. At least not to the RB. I have seen OT's get their knee taken out though.....

Did you watch the video? they all start grabbing at his arms and at the ball and around his waste to slow him down till more guys come and get a hold of his legs. 

 

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1 minute ago, Bwestbrook36 said:

Did you watch the video? they all start grabbing at his arms and at the ball and around his waste to slow him down till more guys come and get a hold of his legs. 

 

  At his arms, not at his shoulders. All around or below his waist. Rugby players are taught to tackle low, not high. Have you ever played Rugby?

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OP should be suspended for his trash talk towards the legend Kelce

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In August of 2019, World Rugby announced that reducing tackle height to waist level was one of several trial laws under consideration for implementation by the Rugby World Cup in 2023.[9][10] Under the new rule, any tackle above the waist would now be considered a high tackle. The rationale for this rule change offered by World Rugby is that "forcing players to tackle lower may reduce the risk of head injuries to both the tackler and tackled player," as well as encouraging more offloads and expansive play.[11] Initial trials of this rule change from the Fédération Française de Rugby (FFR) has had positive results, showing that reduction of permissible tackling to waist height reduces the number of head impacts and player injuries.[10]

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8 minutes ago, stine said:

  At his arms, not at his shoulders. All around or below his waist. Rugby players are taught to tackle low, not high. Have you ever played Rugby?

I just said at his arms you aren't being a guy at that size down grabbing at his arms and around his waste you have to get his legs. Like I just said the grabbed at his arms and around the ball till more guys came to slide down to his legs. I meant tackling high on him meaning tackling at his arms. 

 

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42 minutes ago, Random Reglar said:

No,  in short situations,  you do what NFL teams have been doing for many years.  You put in a JUMBO PACKAGE.   It's not a gimmick.  You take out the smaller faster players and you put in the bigger more powerful players.   All responsible teams do that.  The success of this package is not based at all on trickery.  It's pure power.  And it's completely normal, and if a team doesn't do it,  it's negligence.     It's pathetic if you can't score a TD with first and goal from the 1.  It's like the coaching staff was either negligent by not having a jumbo package or was putting ideology first before winning.

Moving your starting LT to FB in short yardage is a gimmick.   But, I'd like to know what team in the history of the NFL moved their starting LT to FB and handed him the ball in short yardage.  Is there even a single instance of that as a precedent?   

 

Having a jumbo package is completely different from moving Mailata to FB.   A jumbo package is something like 6 or even 7 OL.  3 TEs.  Maybe even putting a DT in as the FB to lead block, which is a bit of a gimmick, but is more traditional.   What you are describing isn't even close to a traditional 'jumbo package'.  

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1 minute ago, Iggles_Phan said:

Moving your starting LT to FB is a gimmick in short yardage is a gimmick.   But, I'd like to know what team in the history of the NFL moved their starting LT to FB and handed him the ball in short yardage.  Is there even a single instance of that as a precedent?   

 

Having a jumbo package is completely different from moving Mailata to FB.   A jumbo package is something like 6 or even 7 OL.  3 TEs.  Maybe even putting a DT in as the FB to lead block, which is a bit of a gimmick, but is more traditional.   What you are describing isn't even close to a traditional 'jumbo package'.  

That's why he is so innovative!!! He should be making millions being a play designer I don't know what he is doing just sitting on his couch coming up with these brilliant ideas!

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26 minutes ago, Bwestbrook36 said:

I just said at his arms you aren't being a guy at that size down grabbing at his arms and around his waste you have to get his legs. Like I just said the grabbed at his arms and around the ball till more guys came to slide down to his legs. I meant tackling high on him meaning tackling at his arms. 

 

OK, got it. I misread your comment... My bad

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8 hours ago, Bwestbrook36 said:

That's why he is so innovative!!! He should be making millions being a play designer I don't know what he is doing just sitting on his couch coming up with these brilliant ideas!

Huh?

What is wrong with you?

I'm talking about basic, basic football.   In short yardage and goal line situations you put big players in and you run the ball. This is something that has been done since the beginning of football.  Of course they didn't have substitutions early on,  but they were running the ball in short yardage situations.

Are you completely ignoring the fact that the coaches lost the game for the Eagles because they were, for some reason, not doing the one thing that football teams have known to do since the beginning of time,   put in big players and run straight ahead?

I'm pretty sure that I warned here or on the sbnation one that one attribute of the Chargers that I noticed a few years ago was that the Chargers had a very bad run game when the Chargers were in a "must run" or "should run" situation.  I noticed a number of times that they were sitting on a lead in the 4th, and they would have won if they just ran the clock out.   And the way to do that is to run and stay in bounds.  And the Chargers ended up with an inadequate run game for the task,  ended up throwing and having to punt, having ran almost no clock.  

It's a real problem,  it's not really a difficult problem to fix,  just do what most teams do, and put in a JUMBO PACKAGE.  Not a term I'm making up.  Basic football that somehow you don't know about.

It also should be obvious to all but the most stupid that Mailata is 100% perfect for a major role in short yardage situations.   That rugby video proves that he can run with the ball and otherwise handle the ball,  and hes massive.  This is really basic and should not be seen as particularly innovative.

Again,   I'll mention the key play at the end of the Ravens game where they Beat the Chiefs.   They had Lamar and their 300 pound FB Patrick Ricard in the backfield.  A WR split left.   2 TEs,  and 6 OL.  It was an unbalanced line,  A TE as a wingback,  LT, RT,  LG,  C, RG, TE

If the Eagles were to duplicate this,  in those short yardage situations,   they would put Mailata in the backfield (the Eagles version of Ricard) and add an extra OL.  And they can move the players around.  I think I'd go with Landon Dickerson at Center,   and I'd have Landon Dickerson practicing snapping to Mailata under center.    And doesn't Lane Johnson have a versatile resume?    He could go in the backfield.    Dillard could replace Mailata at LT or Lane Johnson at RT.  Any of Jalen Hurts,  Mailata or Lane could be taking the snaps or running the ball or pushing the ball carrier over the goal line.   See Patriots on Sunday for Mac Jones pushing Harris over the goal line.  These things are not that innovative, really.  Pretty basic stuff.

And again,  you know that the Eagles lost because they did not do these things.   You make a jumbo package and you run straight ahead.   1st and goal from the 1.   That should be automatic with a jumbo package and running.  The typical thing would be to have Jalen Hurts run, like Lamar Jackson runs.   Jalen Hurts is not as good a runner as Lamar Jackson,  but he's in the next tier,  he's heavier than all the Eagles running backs, and he's not too slow for RB, good size and speed for a running QB,  top sparq for a QB.  Jalen Hurts plus blockers. 

And which is better,  the Eagles failing to do the power run thing like they should and then not scoring and then losing,  or if the Eagles gave the ball to Mailata, then Lane, then Kelce, then Hurts,  and they all failed to get in.  Same result, but people got to see the OL carry the ball,  which is interesting.  The result,  if all the OL failed, would not be worse than what happened,  it would be the same.

These are specific suggestions for the Jumbo Package.    But, really,  all they need to do is have some sort of Jumbo Package, come up with a blocking plan,  and run the ball straight ahead with that Jumbo Package. 
 

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TL;DR

Why is this topic still being taken seriously? :roll:

 

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2 minutes ago, NOTW said:

TL;DR

Why is this topic still being taken seriously? :roll:

 

I have no idea, I just got schooled on jumbo packages... Lol

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