2 hours ago, ManchesterEagle said:

Agreed that Williams may get overpaid and that would take us out.

But in any event the fifth year option is interesting, particularly as Davis has in effect been the 4th DT for the last 8-10 games.

4th DT in number of snaps, but that is misleading because of (1) the nature of the snaps, and (2) the game score at the time of the snaps.  Davis is always in when the opposing team is likely to be calling a running play.  In those snaps the opponent is trying to impose its will on the Eagles … to dominate the trenches and wear down the Eagles.  Davis is a very effective counterbalance to that effort.  The result is a high proportion of 3rd and long situations either stalled drives.  When the opponents are plying catch up, the number of running plays diminishes, and pass rushing skills rather than run stuffing skills are needed.  Davis is still developing pass rushing skills.

I'd take Davis even at higher cost. We have proven that we can find DTs. Williams is great but Davis is very underrated. The things he does on defense are important yet not as flashy. Plus he just works well with Carter off and on the field.

You won't find a massive dude like him with that athleticism. 

I think it's silly to just compare stats and declare him a backup. Davis is key.

1 hour ago, pallidrone said:

I think that we are looking at these guys as the same thing, but they are completely different type of players.

Davis is a space eater. He is more out there on running downs taking out o-line men to allow others to come in and make the plays. He is a big reason why our running defense has been so good. People are expecting him to be a pass rusher, but that is not his game. Finding someone that size is hard.

Williams is more a pass rushing DT. That is why he is sticking out so much, especially this year with teams doubling up on Carter. He was able to eat a lot more then before. I believe his production will go down on whatever team he ends up on mainly because of Davis and Carter.

I think Williams is more replaceable then Davis is, especially in the run game.

I think the key is Ojomo. We already have a replacement for Williams on the roster. We don't currently have one for Davis and his role.

People seem to think snap count = how much faith the team has in a player, but when it comes to rotation, it's more indicative of what the other team is doing. Both Washington and KC abandoned the run early and we had more pass rushers out on the field. Despite playing considerably less snaps in the playoffs, Davis has the same number of sacks (2) this postseason as Williams. A case can be made that Williams may have more stamina and doesn't wear down as fast. But I'm not sold that is really the case. Williams is simply the more polished pass rusher and the Eagles just haven't trailed on the scoreboard all that much.

7 hours ago, Procus said:

This is a very hypothetical situation which I doubt very much would happen.  Williams is getting offered big money by another team, and I doubt that the Eagles match.  I also suspect that Williams' stats will take a hit after he has to play next to somebody other than Jalen Carter.  It's much easier to put up bigger numbers when your teammate playing next to you is constantly getting double and triple teamed.

I don't think Howie is keen on breaking up the Georgia Bulldog group on the defense.

 

I hope Howie doesn't have this mindset

26 minutes ago, Mike030270 said:

I hope Howie doesn't have this mindset

Why not? Might be a good way to convince them all to sign team-friendly contracts. I mean, they're all solid at worst, it's not like he'd be offering extensions to a bunch of bums. 

I think I get your point, there are many other things he should consider first. But it's not too bad if he also considers this at least a little bit.

5 hours ago, mattwill said:

4th DT in number of snaps, but that is misleading because of (1) the nature of the snaps, and (2) the game score at the time of the snaps.  Davis is always in when the opposing team is likely to be calling a running play.  In those snaps the opponent is trying to impose its will on the Eagles … to dominate the trenches and wear down the Eagles.  Davis is a very effective counterbalance to that effort.  The result is a high proportion of 3rd and long situations either stalled drives.  When the opponents are plying catch up, the number of running plays diminishes, and pass rushing skills rather than run stuffing skills are needed.  Davis is still developing pass rushing skills.

 

3 hours ago, brkmsn said:

I think the key is Ojomo. We already have a replacement for Williams on the roster. We don't currently have one for Davis and his role.

People seem to think snap count = how much faith the team has in a player, but when it comes to rotation, it's more indicative of what the other team is doing. Both Washington and KC abandoned the run early and we had more pass rushers out on the field. Despite playing considerably less snaps in the playoffs, Davis has the same number of sacks (2) this postseason as Williams. A case can be made that Williams may have more stamina and doesn't wear down as fast. But I'm not sold that is really the case. Williams is simply the more polished pass rusher and the Eagles just haven't trailed on the scoreboard all that much.

Okay I hear everyone on Davis and appreciate it’s not as simple as looking at snap count.

BUT there just aren’t many run first teams. Even against the Ravens with Henry he only played about 30% of snaps.

Also - quite simply the Eagles are a really good team at the moment. Teams will have to pass more often than not. Is it worth it to pay Davis 11 million to be good against the run on 30% of snaps. All the DTs are benefiting a lot from Carter being so dominant.

I’m talking myself into Davis’s 5th year, especially as i think Williams will cost a lot. But I just wonder whether he would be replaceable at a cheaper cost.

 

1 minute ago, ManchesterEagle said:

 

Okay I hear everyone on Davis and appreciate it’s not as simple as looking at snap count.

BUT there just aren’t many run first teams. Even against the Ravens with Henry he only played about 30% of snaps.

Also - quite simply the Eagles are a really good team at the moment. Teams will have to pass more often than not. Is it worth it to pay Davis 11 million to be good against the run on 30% of snaps. All the DTs are benefiting a lot from Carter being so dominant.

I’m talking myself into Davis’s 5th year, especially as i think Williams will cost a lot. But I just wonder whether he would be replaceable at a cheaper cost.

You raise good points, but it isn’t whether the opposing team is run first.  What taking away the running game from any team does is make them one dimensional, and one dimensional teams are much much easier for a DC to draw up a defense for.

The Super Bowl was a perfect case in point.  KC was quickly forced into a passing only Offense.  That allowed Fangio to go with a four man D-Line and no blitzing.  The Back Seven could focus on blanketing the receivers.  The extra defender in that blanket meant the seams in Fangio’s zones were much tighter than they would have been with one of the Back Seven rededicated to honoring the possibility of a run.

with all the above said, another factor if that Clint Hurtt has been carefully expanding Davis’ skill set.  I believe Davis will become a much more effective pass rusher as time goes on.

 

31 minutes ago, mattwill said:

You raise good points, but it isn’t whether the opposing team is run first.  What taking away the running game from any team does is make them one dimensional, and one dimensional teams are much much easier for a DC to draw up a defense for.

The Super Bowl was a perfect case in point.  KC was quickly forced into a passing only Offense.  That allowed Fangio to go with a four man D-Line and no blitzing.  The Back Seven could focus on blanketing the receivers.  The extra defender in that blanket meant the seams in Fangio’s zones were much tighter than they would have been with one of the Back Seven rededicated to honoring the possibility of a run.

with all the above said, another factor if that Clint Hurtt has been carefully expanding Davis’ skill set.  I believe Davis will become a much more effective pass rusher as time goes on.

I was typing the same thing almost word for word and decided to read your reply real quick and realized you pretty much covered it. 

41 minutes ago, ManchesterEagle said:

I'm talking myself into Davis’s 5th year, especially as i think Williams will cost a lot. But I just wonder whether he would be replaceable at a cheaper cost.

No way. I think Davis has some unicorn level traits. You'd get someone big and heavy but the ceiling for him would be so much lower.

Williams has already shown and proved that he is a force in this D. Also, Williams over that last 3 seasons has steadily improved under different DCs. Yeah, he is going to command a high dollar amount. But, he is more valuable to your team, your Lockeroom, your defense.

On 2/18/2025 at 8:15 AM, pallidrone said:

I think that we are looking at these guys as the same thing, but they are completely different type of players.

Davis is a space eater. He is more out there on running downs taking out o-line men to allow others to come in and make the plays. He is a big reason why our running defense has been so good. People are expecting him to be a pass rusher, but that is not his game. Finding someone that size is hard.

Williams is more a pass rushing DT. That is why he is sticking out so much, especially this year with teams doubling up on Carter. He was able to eat a lot more then before. I believe his production will go down on whatever team he ends up on mainly because of Davis and Carter.

I think Williams is more replaceable then Davis is, especially in the run game.

It isn't that. It's that he was drafted in the top 10 at DT. The Eagles knew he wasn't a 3 tech DT. Davis was a building block on the line. Davis has improved in ways that aren't demonstratively visible. But he has made demonstrative plays this season. 

Williams was their draft pick and has played well in a limited role. I just think the continuity of the line depends on having a DT who can rush from inside or outside, + play the run well. Contract costs not withstanding of course.

On 2/17/2025 at 12:55 PM, Cheesteakitis said:

Here is regular season snaps and % for the eagles Dt’s 

Defensive tacke

Jalen Carter: 831 snaps (79%)
Milton Williams: 501 snaps (48%)
Jordan Davis: 388 snaps (37%)
Moro Ojomo: 388 snaps (37%)
Thomas Booker IV: 166 snaps (16%)

 

 

 

The thing I find interesting is the MASSIVE pay increase Williams is going to get by someone, but he's never played more than 50% of the snaps in his career.   Don't get me wrong, I'm a big fan of Milton Williams. But there was never much of a drop-off (if any at all) when Ojomo was playing.  

1 hour ago, JamesK said:

 

The thing I find interesting is the MASSIVE pay increase Williams is going to get by someone, but he's never played more than 50% of the snaps in his career.   Don't get me wrong, I'm a big fan of Milton Williams. But there was never much of a drop-off (if any at all) when Ojomo was playing.  

And it’s why I think a team may end up making a mistake giving him a huge deal. That’s not to say he won’t work out but it is definitely a risk. It’s a projection that he can become a full time starter and maintain his production. Especially without Carter next to him and that secondary and Baun behind him.

The sum of the parts is greater than the whole.  As well as Williams has played, his stats are inflated by playing next to Jalen Carter.  The best move is to keep the Georgia core in tact.  Williams can be replaced easier than one of the Bulldogs.

I'll keep Davis and draft a DT. I truly believe Ojomo's going to have a great bump next year.