February 17, 20214 yr It’s too bad they outlaw price gouging or I’d take a couple of days off, rent one of those home heating oil trucks and drive down to Texas
February 17, 20214 yr Just now, Seventy_Yard_FG said: If regulating it works so well then how do you explain California Storm comes, blame capitalism...makes sense There's truth that it's more complicated than "deregulation is the culprit", but it's part of the issue for sure. California's issues are distinct from Texas's. With California, you can definitely point in part to what is a premature transition from more reliable energy sources (fossil fuels most prominently) towards less reliable renewables. With Texas, you can definitely point in part to what is a desire to keep themselves independent of federal guidelines and ignoring recommendations made multiple times to beef up their ability to handle cold temps (most recently as 2011). In both cases though, what you're seeing is the consequences of politics overriding reason. THAT is true for BOTH Texas and California.
February 17, 20214 yr 19 minutes ago, Seventy_Yard_FG said: If regulating it works so well then how do you explain California Storm comes, blame capitalism, not the storm...makes sense Fires come, blame California, not the fires...makes sense. https://www.politico.com/states/california/story/2020/08/20/trump-blames-california-for-wildfires-tells-state-you-gotta-clean-your-floors-1311059 Quote "I see again the forest fires are starting," he said at a rally in swing-state Pennsylvania. "They’re starting again in California. I said, you gotta clean your floors, you gotta clean your forests — there are many, many years of leaves and broken trees and they’re like, like, so flammable, you touch them and it goes up." "Maybe we’re just going to have to make them pay for it because they don’t listen to us,” he added.
February 17, 20214 yr 13 minutes ago, JohnSnowsHair said: There's truth that it's more complicated than "deregulation is the culprit", but it's part of the issue for sure. California's issues are distinct from Texas's. With California, you can definitely point in part to what is a premature transition from more reliable energy sources (fossil fuels most prominently) towards less reliable renewables. With Texas, you can definitely point in part to what is a desire to keep themselves independent of federal guidelines and ignoring recommendations made multiple times to beef up their ability to handle cold temps (most recently as 2011). In both cases though, what you're seeing is the consequences of politics overriding reason. THAT is true for BOTH Texas and California. Some people don’t buy insurance and choose to pay out of pocket when an unlikely disaster comes. In some cases the amount you pay out of pocket is less than the sum of the premiums you would have paid to buy the insurance. How do we know already that on balance it would have been more costly to build these cold weather protections in Texas’ power grid than it will be to ride out this weeks storm?
February 17, 20214 yr As far as I know, here's where Texas energy generation fell flat... 1. Natural gas generators were shut down. This accounts for most of the energy production deficit. 2. Wind turbines stopped spinning because they were weren't properly de-iced like they are in cold regions. 3. Solar stopped generating for some of the same reasons. Also weather. There's a couple things we need to be honest with ourselves about... one of them being diversification of renewable energy. Yeah, there was a real failure in management and disaster planning and had ERCOT and producers like Centerpoint been ready they'd have been able to ride this out. And apparently they've been living on a knife edge in terms of grid reserves. But if you have a grid that is reliant upon multiple types of energy generation that are built on different fault lines then you're creating additional points of failure. Until we get to the point where we're producing excess energy from renewables, IMO, we need to be focused on a single and reliable source of energy... nuclear.
February 17, 20214 yr 1 minute ago, mayanh8 said: As far as I know, here's where Texas energy generation fell flat... 1. Natural gas generators were shut down. This accounts for most of the energy production deficit. 2. Wind turbines stopped spinning because they were weren't properly de-iced like they are in cold regions. 3. Solar stopped generating for some of the same reasons. There's a couple things we need to be honest with ourselves about... one of them being diversification of renewable energy. Yeah, there was a real failure in management and disaster planning and had ERCOT and producers like Centerpoint been ready they'd have been able to ride this out. But if you have a grid that is reliant upon multiple types of energy generation that are built on different fault lines then you're creating additional points of failure. Until we get to the point where we're producing excess energy from renewables, IMO, we need to be focused on a single and reliable source of energy... nuclear. I thought I read that nuclear failed too, since you need so much water to produce it.
February 17, 20214 yr 16 minutes ago, Seventy_Yard_FG said: Some people don’t buy insurance and choose to pay out of pocket when an unlikely disaster comes. In some cases the amount you pay out of pocket is less than the sum of the premiums you would have paid to buy the insurance. How do we know already that on balance it would have been more costly to build these cold weather protections in Texas’ power grid than it will be to ride out this weeks storm? That depends on how much value you place on any potential lives that are lost as a result of the power outage in the dead of winter. People died in the Flint water crisis too, but using your logic, they could've just let more people die rather than spend the billions to correct their mistakes. At some point, pinching pennies on public utilities that people depend on can costs lives. Can you always prevent deaths? Of course not, but the goal should always be to minimize loss of life, while still having sensible policy to maximize uptime for public utilities. I'm sure if you lived in TX without power, you wouldn't be so quick to side with utility companies maximizing profits.
February 17, 20214 yr Just now, VanHammersly said: I thought I read that nuclear failed too, since you need so much water to produce it. Reading now that one plant shut down on the gulf coast. Yeah... it makes sense. But from what I know nuclear produces a very small amount of ERCOT energy.
February 17, 20214 yr I mean, it's not that complicated. It's not the Green New Deal -- sorry conservatives. And it's not de-regulation -- sorry liberals. It's because it's really friggin cold, and the grid, generation and transmission systems weren't set up to operate in these temperatures. Why? Because it makes no sense from an ROIC perspective since it has never been this cold in Texas before. Sometimes things happen. Stop looking for someone to blame for everything. It would be like if an earthquake hit NYC and people wanted to cry that NYC buildings didn't have the same safeguards as LA buildings. Why the hell would they?
February 17, 20214 yr 2 minutes ago, we_gotta_believe said: That depends on how much value you place on any potential lives that are lost as a result of the power outage in the dead of winter. People died in the Flint water crisis too, but using your logic, they could've just let more people die rather than spend the billions to correct their mistakes. At some point, pinching pennies costs lives. Can you always prevent deaths? Of course not, but the goal should always be to minimize loss of life, while still having sensible policy to maximize uptime for public utilities. I'm sure if you lived in TX without power, you wouldn't be so quick to side with utility companies maximizing profits. If I was paying cheap rates for electricity 99 years out of 100 I would have to make some consideration Theres a difference I think between giving people water and telling them it’s clean when it’s not and failing to deliver electricity one week. People should prepare themselves for power outages. No grid stays up 100% of the time. The power goes out in Maine up here now and then. The difference here in Texas is that instead of a few thousand residents being without power it’s a few million. In either case, people are at risk of dying, they could have prepared for it, or they can choose not to prepare and spend their time and money on something else and accept the risk
February 17, 20214 yr And I'm not trying to minimize the mismanagement by ERCOT. Obviously nuclear and gas plants run in colder climates than TX.
February 17, 20214 yr 1 minute ago, vikas83 said: I mean, it's not that complicated. It's not the Green New Deal -- sorry conservatives. And it's not de-regulation -- sorry liberals. It's because it's really friggin cold, and the grid, generation and transmission systems weren't set up to operate in these temperatures. Why? Because it makes no sense from an ROIC perspective since it has never been this cold in Texas before. Sometimes things happen. Stop looking for someone to blame for everything. Probably. But I think it's making more sense by the day.
February 17, 20214 yr 1 minute ago, mayanh8 said: Probably. But I think it's making more sense by the day. That’s kind of like the guy who won the lottery telling you what a great investment a lottery ticket would be for you it makes no sense
February 17, 20214 yr Just now, Seventy_Yard_FG said: If I was paying cheap rates for electricity 99 years out of 100 I would have to make some consideration Theres a difference I think between giving people water and telling them it’s clean when it’s not and failing to deliver electricity one week. People should prepare themselves for power outages. No grid stays up 100% of the time. The power goes out in Maine up here now and then. The difference here in Texas is that instead of a few thousand residents being without power it’s a few million. In either case, people are at risk of dying, they could have prepared for it, or they can choose not to prepare and spend their time and money on something else and accept the risk Are the residents actually paying cheap rates though? From what I've seen, they're paying higher rates than neighboring states.
February 17, 20214 yr Just now, mayanh8 said: Probably. But I think it's making more sense by the day. If you want to argue that they should retrofit now, based on climate change, that's a productive debate to have. But running around and blaming the Green New Deal and de-regulation is just idiotic. There was no reason back when most of these plants were built to prepare for weather like this. It annoys the crap out of me how everyone wants to try and assign blame as opposed to trying to find solutions to simple problems.
February 17, 20214 yr 1 hour ago, mikemack8 said: Dallas sucks - that's all I have to add Yes. This point cannot be stressed enough. Dallas sucks.
February 17, 20214 yr 2 minutes ago, we_gotta_believe said: Are the residents actually paying cheap rates though? From what I've seen, they're paying higher rates than neighboring states. I don’t know, but do you mean right now or on normal days? Of course right now prices are skyrocketed
February 17, 20214 yr 2 minutes ago, Seventy_Yard_FG said: I don’t know, but do you mean right now or on normal days? Of course right now prices are skyrocketed I'm saying on average for the past few years, reports are that even though the utilities were "deregulated" most of whatever savings from that weren't being passed on to the consumers.
February 17, 20214 yr Author My energy bills were never that much in Texas. My water bill was over $300 in the summer months though when the sprinkler was going off everyday.
February 17, 20214 yr 8 minutes ago, vikas83 said: If you want to argue that they should retrofit now, based on climate change, that's a productive debate to have. But running around and blaming the Green New Deal and de-regulation is just idiotic. There was no reason back when most of these plants were built to prepare for weather like this. It annoys the crap out of me how everyone wants to try and assign blame as opposed to trying to find solutions to simple problems. Hell froze over. End of story.
February 17, 20214 yr 13 minutes ago, we_gotta_believe said: Are the residents actually paying cheap rates though? From what I've seen, they're paying higher rates than neighboring states. It's not that simple. Consumer energy plans get complex down here with how they handle rate schedules of peak and off-peak hours. Energy LEC's will advertise super low rates of like 5 cents per kW but in order to average a low rate you have to be religious about how and when you use electricity. Nobody lives their life like that which is why we still average about 12 cents per kW.
February 17, 20214 yr 4 minutes ago, we_gotta_believe said: I'm saying on average for the past few years, reports are that even though the utilities were "deregulated" most of whatever savings from that weren't being passed on to the consumers. Even if we believe your unnamed sources of reports, adding the cost of whatever kind of installation is required to provide power during an ice storm almost certainly makes the prices go up. Also makes sure you are counting the cost of taxes for providing this regulation.
February 17, 20214 yr TX isn't in the bottom 10, but 3 of their neighbors (OK, LA, AR) are. Looks like they're about average nationally. https://paylesspower.com/blog/electric-rates-by-state/
February 17, 20214 yr One hysterical note. Everyone likes to scream about how deregulation made the generation companies in TX rich at the expense of consumers. Um...is that why Mirant and others went bankrupt? I remember looking at those companies, and the value was all in the REGULATED businesses where profits were guaranteed since rates were set as cost-plus. The assets in deregulated markets were a debacle, as the natural gas peakers barely ever covered their costs. PG&E goes bankrupt and all the debt is covered, equity gets a windfall and rates go up to customers to guarantee profits. Mirant shareholders barely got anything. But I guess that doesn't help a talking point.
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