8 minutes ago, JohnSnowsHair said:

the conversation was fairly ambiguous on this, but my main point was about political power.

TEW talks about how colleges are liberal, which is well and good but hippie college professors are not particularly influential in actual politics. the argument has always been that they're "brainwashing" college students and have been for generations, yet Democrats still don't seem all that enthused or likely to pass BBB despite all that supposed influence. 

I think the impact of the MSM has been reversed frankly. Obviously there is still a lot in the way of liberal news sources out there, but right wing news is incredibly influential among the voting base of the right, which votes more frequently and more reliably for Republicans. It's part of what has allowed Republicans to punch above their weight politically for the past generation, along with the systemic advantages of the electoral college and more ruthless use of gerrymandering compared to Democrats.

On Gerrymandering, Democrats do appear set to exploit this more than they ever have in 2020 however, while Republicans really can't squeeze any more representation out than earlier gerrymanders already did.

The reality is that the most socialist/progressive voters don't vote reliably, and never have. This is true throughout history. Those who show up to the polls and vote reliably are generally older, have been at least partially disabused of whatever politics they embraced as a youth, and vote on meat-and-potatoes issues. You just don't have a group of reliable voters that politicians can court that espouse the radical left-wing views TEW and others complain about, outside of select districts. 

On the flip side you have Republicans that MUST actively demonstrate fealty to Trump (which is why he stays in the news, I would LOVE to stop talking about that crooked con-artist loser who tried to steal an election) or else they risk being primaried. You just don't have that effect on the left; Democrat house members aren't making trips up to Vermont to kiss Bernie's ring. Bernie LOST THE PRIMARY to Biden, who was considered the most moderate of the top-tier Democratic candidates. That alone speaks volumes about where the Democratic electorate is.

Do you think someone like Hogan or Sununu would be able to defeat Trump for the Republican primary? I don't. I think if Trump announces, he wins handily - because that's what the voters want. 

The example you gave about over 100 members of Congress voting against certifying the election is a good one.  It shows the precarious position American democracy is in.  But the Chicken Littles on this board are worried about 4 women.  Tells you a lot.

What I find interesting when I go back and forth between my farther left and farther right wing friends and acquaintances is that BOTH SIDES complain about the slide left/right of the nation the last 20 years.

Left-wingers think that we've gone more right, and point to income tax cuts and billionaires borrowing against their illiquid stock to circumvent tax laws, huge increases in gun ownership and militarization of police (and private militias), along with increased production of fossil fuels. 

Right-wingers think we've gone more left, pointing to cultural issues like gay marriage, trans rights, "socialisms", CRT, etc. 

I did have a conversation with my one buddy who has gotten more radically liberal as he has gotten older (I owe this at least in part to him dating a hippie type girl much younger than he, along with his personality which is much more emotion-driven than reason-based), and he's convinced that civil war is imminent and that "we" (non-right wingers) will have to take flight to Europe at some point. 

I don't know if the world has gone more mad, or if I'm just hearing more from the people who are cracked from living in their echo chambers.

5 minutes ago, Dave Moss said:

The example you gave about over 100 members of Congress voting against certifying the election is a good one.  It shows the precarious position American democracy is in.  But the Chicken Littles on this board are worried about 4 women.  Tells you a lot.

That is a point that people just seem to blow past.

I absolutely abhor AOC's politics. I don't think Omar belongs in the house. I feel similarly about Tlaib. I think their policies are bad, and bad for the nation. But those are conversations we can have within the framework of representative government.

On the flip side, you have a former president and a significant group of Republican House and Senate members that lent material support to the overthrow of a presidential election. To me this represents an existential threat to the Republic. 

I'm sorry, but I cannot countenance treating them as in any way equivalent. A bunch of crazies on the left with limited political power in the House is not the same as over 100 Republican reps voting to steal an election, with a small number of them appearing to actively support an armed takeover of the Capitol building while certifying the vote.

6 minutes ago, JohnSnowsHair said:

What I find interesting when I go back and forth between my farther left and farther right wing friends and acquaintances is that BOTH SIDES complain about the slide left/right of the nation the last 20 years.

Left-wingers think that we've gone more right, and point to income tax cuts and billionaires borrowing against their illiquid stock to circumvent tax laws, huge increases in gun ownership and militarization of police (and private militias), along with increased production of fossil fuels. 

Right-wingers think we've gone more left, pointing to cultural issues like gay marriage, trans rights, "socialisms", CRT, etc. 

I did have a conversation with my one buddy who has gotten more radically liberal as he has gotten older (I owe this at least in part to him dating a hippie type girl much younger than he, along with his personality which is much more emotion-driven than reason-based), and he's convinced that civil war is imminent and that "we" (non-right wingers) will have to take flight to Europe at some point. 

I don't know if the world has gone more mad, or if I'm just hearing more from the people who are cracked from living in their echo chambers.

There's literally a 0% chance that conversation took place. I don't care how many Alberts you claim to know or what kind of applause they typically draw.

Just now, Kz! said:

There's literally a 0% chance that conversation took place. I don't care how many Alberts you claim to know or what kind of applause they typically draw.

Uh, it did. I'm not sure what is surprising about that line? I don't even know what you mean by "Alberts" or applause?

You're usually pretty unintelligible, but I'm starting to get worried that you stroked out.

Just now, JohnSnowsHair said:

Uh, it did. I'm not sure what is surprising about that line? I don't even know what you mean by "Alberts" or applause?

You're usually pretty unintelligible, but I'm starting to get worried that you stroked out.

Yeah, it probably happened right around the time you pulled your kids from school because of the anti-mask parents.   

2 minutes ago, Kz! said:

Yeah, it probably happened right around the time you pulled your kids from school because of the anti-mask parents.   

I'm a big proponent of referencing Mr. Einstein, but I'm not sure why it's hard to believe that liberals think the country has gone further right in the last few decades.  I've heard it plenty.

Just now, VanHammersly said:

I'm a big proponent of referencing Mr. Einstein, but I'm not sure why it's hard to believe that liberals think the country has gone further right in the last few decades.  I've heard it plenty.

No, you really haven't. And it's just a demonstrably absurd notion. 

1 minute ago, Kz! said:

No, you really haven't. And it's just a demonstrably absurd notion. 

No, it's really not.  Socially, we've gone pretty far leftward (though the rallied blowback on this one has honestly pulled a huge segment of the country much further right).  But when it comes to the examples John used (gun ownership, militarization of police) and then other examples (like the concerted efforts against voting and abortion rights), we've most certainly pulled to the right.

1 minute ago, 4for4EaglesNest said:

I have a lot of liberal friends......and we normally pick on each other but have found some common ground as I have some views that fall in line with them.  We joke about Obama, Trump,  President Pop Pop and Shillary and all of the key disastrously laughable figures the last few decades.  Try to keep it light....I have never heard one of them say anything or complain about the country going in a right direction.   You must have some really radically looney lefty friends.  I'm not calling BS.....but I don't believe it.  That's pretty out there.  

It's the first time I had spoken politics with him for a while. He was in my wedding, but we just don't see each other that often because "life". Many of my friends from my 20s chose to live in Philly, he among them. I went the other way, moving further out of the city the older I got.

He was never particularly political, so it was surprising to even have the conversation. He was going on about the left-wing version of events of the Rittenhouse shooting, and it just sort of kept going from there. 

He's definitely gotten more into politics, and more radical in his views as he has gotten older. I mostly nodded and declined to comment, because there was nothing to be gained. But I did find it humorous that he literally stated "we're in late stage capitalism" while we were sitting down at an incredibly expensive restaurant (Estia) for his and another buddy's birthday celebration, on the heels of him traveling to Mexico where he was exploiting capitalism by living in affordable luxury in Cancun. But I didn't bring that up during the conversation lol.

If you cherry-pick the right topics you can try to make an argument that the country has moved to the right. I'm not saying that any of the arguments he made are rational or reasonable, nor that I agree with him on basically anything. I'm just saying that view is out there. Both sides play the victim game.

Amusingly, his first name is also Dave lol. Maybe it's something in the name..

1 minute ago, VanHammersly said:

No, it's really not.  Socially, we've gone pretty far leftward (though the rallied blowback on this one has honestly pulled a huge segment of the country much further right).  But when it comes to the examples John used (gun ownership, militarization of police) and then other examples (like the concerted efforts against voting and abortion rights), we've most certainly pulled to the right.

"Gun ownership" going up is not indicative of the government moving to the right, obviously. I'm not entirely sure about what you mean by "militarization of police" or how that's supposedly indicative of a move to the right, but the police have probably never held a weaker position in the country than they do right now. Since the summer of George, arrests are way down, the liberalization of our criminal justice system is way up, and it's predictably caused violent crime to absolutely skyrocket. And, yes, that's because our criminal justice system in virtually every major city has moved way, way to the left. 

6 minutes ago, Kz! said:

No, you really haven't. And it's just a demonstrably absurd notion. 

it's pretty absurd to think we've gone left on certain issues as well. taxes, for example. 

culturally there has been a big shift to the left, no doubt. and that's where a lot of people on the right seem to focus their political energy, so I get it when right-wingers complain about the leftward-lurch.

but there are issues where we've gone further right as well. intuitively I'd say those are fewer in number, but do represent some pretty powerful positions. welfare reform and deregulation in the 90s, along with tax cuts since then are among some pretty big ones. 

again, both sides cherry pick. I'm not sure why it would be surprising that someone I'm describing specifically as a radicalized leftist would focus on those particular issues when trying to make the argument.

I disagree with my friend FWIW. he's a good man, but I do fear that he's on a wayward path politically. 

3 minutes ago, JohnSnowsHair said:

it's pretty absurd to think we've gone left on certain issues as well. taxes, for example. 

culturally there has been a big shift to the left, no doubt. and that's where a lot of people on the right seem to focus their political energy, so I get it when right-wingers complain about the leftward-lurch.

but there are issues where we've gone further right as well. intuitively I'd say those are fewer in number, but do represent some pretty powerful positions. welfare reform and deregulation in the 90s, along with tax cuts since then are among some pretty big ones. 

again, both sides cherry pick. I'm not sure why it would be surprising that someone I'm describing specifically as a radicalized leftist would focus on those particular issues when trying to make the argument.

I disagree with my friend FWIW. he's a good man, but I do fear that he's on a wayward path politically. 

Yeah, when you said initially that you had knew a lot of people on the left that feel like we're moving to the right, that's what I called BS on. If you're now saying it's just one dude who is Antifa-adjacent in ideology, then that makes sense.

2 minutes ago, Kz! said:

"Gun ownership" going up is not indicative of the government moving to the right, obviously. I'm not entirely sure about what you mean by "militarization of police" or how that's supposedly indicative of a move to the right, but the police have probably never held a weaker position in the country than they do right now. Since the summer of George, arrests are way down, the liberalization of our criminal justice system is way up, and it's predictably caused violent crime to absolutely skyrocket. And, yes, that's because our criminal justice system in virtually every major city has moved way, way to the left. 

I know you just really wanted to shoehorn a liberals hate police argument in here, but the fact that police have been militarized in the last few decades isn't in question.  The influx of military surplus equipment into police force has been happening steadily since the 90's. 

2 minutes ago, VanHammersly said:

I know you just really wanted to shoehorn a liberals hate police argument in here, but the fact that police have been militarized in the last few decades isn't in question.  The influx of military surplus equipment into police force has been happening steadily since the 90's. 

It's a pretty easy argument to make, and there's absolutely no question that everything from liberal criminal justice reform to insane liberal DAs letting violent criminals walk have had absolutely catastrophic and predictable consequences in major cities nationwide. I assumed by "militarization of police" you meant police getting excess military equipment, but I'm still not entirely sure if that's a significant example of the country moving toward the right. In fact, I'm entirely positive it's not.  

1 minute ago, Kz! said:

I assumed by "militarization of police" you meant police getting excess military equipment, but I'm still not entirely sure if that's a significant example of the country moving toward the right. In fact, I'm entirely positive it's not.  

Of course it is.  Obama limited it and Trump of course rescinded those limitations and even expanded its use (I guess to own the libs).  

1 minute ago, VanHammersly said:

Of course it is.  Obama limited it and Trump of course rescinded those limitations and even expanded its use (I guess to own the libs).  

I'm talking about the philosophy behind it, not which politicians support it. Pointing to police stations getting excess military equipment as proof that the country is moving further to the right is just a completely absurd argument that makes absolutely no sense. But I guess when you're trying to argue that the country, as a whole, has moved to the right in any significant way, you have to come up with some stupid ish to throw at the wall, so kudos to you for trying.  

4 minutes ago, Kz! said:

I'm talking about the philosophy behind it, not which politicians support it. Pointing to police stations getting excess military equipment as proof that the country is moving further to the right is just a completely absurd argument that makes absolutely no sense. But I guess when you're trying to argue that the country, as a whole, has moved to the right in any significant way, you have to come up with some stupid ish to throw at the wall, so kudos to you for trying.  

  Ah, so despite the fact that it was policy pushed for and implemented by the right that was when Republicans were being RINO's.  Got it.

3 minutes ago, VanHammersly said:

  Ah, so despite the fact that it was policy pushed for and implemented by the right that was when Republicans were being RINO's.  Got it.

So, yeah, you just repeated your previous post because you still can't articulate how the policy is actually right wing or how it is indicative of the country, as a whole, moving to the right.  

2 minutes ago, Kz! said:

So, yeah, you just repeated your previous post because you still can't articulate how the policy is actually right wing or how it is indicative of the country, as a whole, moving to the right.  

It's right wing because it's a policy embraced by the Republican Party and the broader Republican electorate.  I'm not sure what more evidence you're looking for here.  You want an ideological breakdown?  I mean it's not libertarian but libertarians have about as much influence on Republican politics as I do.

28 minutes ago, 4for4EaglesNest said:

Ok....one guy who is "radical" to use your term.  Ok...makes sense.  

he's not the only one that has made that argument, he's just the freshest in my memory because the conversation was 3 days ago. 

hell, my wife has made the argument. she's not even that far left. 

it just depends on what issues you're talking about, and which are important to you. 

culturally it's pretty impossible to argue that we have moved to the right. you might be able to find something like gun ownership that you can claim is cultural and moved us farther to the right, but the reality there is that it's more a factor of the nation becoming more polarized - which means the edges are getting more radical. 

but as far as actual major legislation that has been passed, it's a mixed bag. obviously the ACA was a huge leftward lurch. but between Clinton and Dubya there was a lot of deregulation that took place, effective corporate tax rates were steadily reducing until Trump's tax cuts dropped the floor out of them, there's been more not less oil production domestically, and you see the courts going further and further right and now on the precipice of possibly overturning Roe v Wade.

So there's a thread of things one can argue, even if taken in totality it's generally leftward. 

if you spend a lot of time in an echo chamber you'll subscribe to all sorts of whacky views.

there's a LOT of that from the right-wing posters on the board

4 minutes ago, VanHammersly said:

It's right wing because it's a policy embraced by the Republican Party and the broader Republican electorate.  I'm not sure what more evidence you're looking for here.  You want an ideological breakdown?  I mean it's not libertarian but libertarians have about as much influence on Republican politics as I do.

Nah, you don't have to break it down ideologically. We both know it really isn't an inherently right or left wing proposition. I'm more interested in hearing about how it's a significant indicator of how our country has moved to the right. Actually, I'm not. I think at this point we both understand that it was an absurd argument in the first place.  

"Ermagherd the police got unused surplus equipment that they almost never use! We're turning into a rightwing fascist police state!"   

 

1 minute ago, Kz! said:

Nah, you don't have to break it down ideologically. We both know it really isn't an inherently right or left wing proposition.

 

Except it is, because it's opposed by the left and embraced by the right.

I love it when you pretend the Republican Party has some sort of libertarian core ideology though. 

Just now, VanHammersly said:

Except it is, because it's opposed by the left and embraced by the right.

I love it when you pretend the Republican Party has some sort of libertarian core ideology though. 

OK, fine, totally right wing. Now explain the most important half of the equation.