10 hours ago, ToastJenkins said:

Uh no im the scientist actually

the smug condescension comes from the religious zealots. Who by self appointment claim some enlightenment. You are the right wing version of woke. 

i think abortion is abhorrent. I believe in accountability. But i also think people should make their own decisions and we have little to no standing in such decisions. Until we can show such standing we should leave the decision in hands of the individual and they can resolve it with themselves and their god.

its not as if we need more people or want to pay for them.

 

Exactly.  Anti-abortionists just like to have a "feel good" cause.  It is really about them -- not the aborted fetuses.    

10 hours ago, The_Omega said:

How long is it one cell? Minutes? Seconds? Life has begun. With all of your smug condescension, you appear to be the emotional one. Modern science defines death as brain death, so the latest it should define the beginning of life is the moment brain function begins.

Red herring/false argument.   The moment life begins is not the issue.  That just plays into the hands of anti-abortionists.  Even IF life has begun at conception or in the womb or whenever, abortion can and should be legal -- who cares about the definition of "life" when it comes to abortion.  Let's call it life at 15 weeks -- or whatever -- so what.  It is a necessary "evil" -- it should be legal up to a point where its not absurdly ridiculous -- like at the time where a woman has ample time to know they are pregnant and make a rational decision with time for thought -- whatever time that is.   Other than medical reasons, there is no reason for a woman to wait 8 months.   So some time before that for sure -- I don't know the exact line and we never will  -- so we just need to go with something (which is why many people like Roe).    And, by the way, life is impossible to define -- scientists have tried.  As clearly set forth in this great book:

   

The simple fact is the debate around when life begins is and will likely always be nebulous. The religious freaks will continue to co-opt their own self serving interpretation regardless of what the scientific community may say. Sounds familiar, right?

Outside of consensus, pro-life freaks have zero business pushing their own personal, emotional interpretation of the issue on others. The most fair and humane thing we can do for now is to allow the individual freedom of choice. 

8 minutes ago, mayanh8 said:

The simple fact is the debate around when life begins is and will likely always be nebulous. The religious freaks will continue to co-opt their own self serving interpretation regardless of what the scientific community may say. Sounds familiar, right?

Outside of consensus, pro-life freaks have zero business pushing their own personal, emotional interpretation of the issue on others. The most fair and humane thing we can do for now is to allow the individual freedom of choice. 

Common sense!  How dare you.   Anti-abortionists aren't about common sense.  They are about feeling good about themselves for being "do gooders".

1 hour ago, caesar said:

Exactly.  Anti-abortionists just like to have a "feel good" cause.  It is really about them -- not the aborted fetuses.    

Thank you for this dose of irony to reinforce my point

1 hour ago, caesar said:

People who want to totally ban abortion are just annoying scolds and imposing religious doctrine on civil society.   It makes THEM feel good to claim they are defending the helpless -- anti-abortion people are about themselves and being selfish -- it is about them being able to think they have a halo around their head.  No one cares about your moral crusades.   Butt the f out.   

Probably the most accurate part of the post. Nosing into other people's business and infringing on individual freedoms is the very definition of today's extremist parties on both sides. The very notion that someone might be be experiencing life in a different way than they are is 100% unpalatable for them and it induces an instant, emotional reaction of rejection. From that point on, an opposing position is taken and a rationalization process (no matter how contradictory it may be to the last thing they said/thought) begins.

And the reason for it all, again, is that these nutters can't stomach the reality that the world doesn't revolve around them or their personal belief structure.

4 minutes ago, mayanh8 said:

Probably the most accurate part of the post. Nosing into other people's business and infringing on individual freedoms is the very definition of today's extremist parties on both sides. The very notion that someone might be be experiencing life in a different way than they are is 100% unpalatable for them and it induces an instant, emotional reaction of rejection. From that point on, an opposing position is taken and a rationalization process (no matter how contradictory it may be to the last thing they said/thought) begins.

And the reason for it all, again, is that these nutters can't stomach the reality that the world doesn't revolve around them or their personal belief structure.

What's your position on vaccine mandates?

32 minutes ago, caesar said:

Common sense!  How dare you.   Anti-abortionists aren't about common sense.  They are about feeling good about themselves for being "do gooders".

You are no better sadly

PP should get no federal money either. If you believe in it, you finance it.

1 minute ago, Procus said:

What's your position on vaccine mandates?

Nobody should be legally forced to get vaccinated. That's a position I've maintained since the pandemic began. Whatever consequences that has on their own personal life is on them.

6 minutes ago, mayanh8 said:

Probably the most accurate part of the post. Nosing into other people's business and infringing on individual freedoms is the very definition of today's extremist parties on both sides. The very notion that someone might be be experiencing life in a different way than they are is 100% unpalatable for them and it induces an instant, emotional reaction of rejection. From that point on, an opposing position is taken and a rationalization process (no matter how contradictory it may be to the last thing they said/thought) begins.

And the reason for it all, again, is that these nutters can't stomach the reality that the world doesn't revolve around them or their personal belief structure.

Holy F you join caesar in the zero self awareness pool. You just described ypur entire political view.

1 minute ago, ToastJenkins said:

Holy F you join caesar in the zero self awareness pool. You just described ypur entire political view.

Eat a dick.

1 minute ago, mayanh8 said:

Eat a dick.

Still projecting i see…

3 hours ago, caesar said:

You ignore the gist of my points.  We kill people all the time -- cause we MAKE it legal.  Just like we can and do make abortion legal.  There is nothing inherently moral about convicting someone for a crime and then killing them.  It is a legal fiction made up by humans.  Same with war.    We kill tons of innocent people in wars all the time.   Call it war, call it the death penalty, call it whatever.   And yes, you can call it abortion. 

You can make excuses for cars or make excuses for other products that kill -- assisted suicide and the like.   But it comes down to the same thing - people dying (some not by their own choice).

The fact is dude -- people will always have abortions -- whether you think it is immoral or not.   It is a fact of the human condition and pregnancy -- which requires another human to support the unborn during the term of pregnancy.    

You may not like it -- but its a fact of being human.  Making it illegal will just drive it underground or limit it even more to those with money.   

Awwwww poor little helpless fetus.   Your morals don't matter to me or others and should not be imposed on others.   People who want to totally ban abortion are just annoying scolds and imposing religious doctrine on civil society.   It makes THEM feel good to claim they are defending the helpless -- anti-abortion people are about themselves and being selfish -- it is about them being able to think they have a halo around their head.  No one cares about your moral crusades.   Butt the f out.   

Well, if you're argument is to legalize the murder of undesirables then there's not much more to talk about.

2 hours ago, ToastJenkins said:

Thank you for this dose of irony to reinforce my point

It doesn't reinforce your point.  It is feel good BS.  Oh, the poor poor babies in some strangers womb.  Get out that you really care that much.  It's nonsense.  Don't master  bate   then either - -you are wasting all those potential babies.

2 hours ago, Procus said:

What's your position on vaccine mandates?

What's the issue with getting a vaccine?   Does it hurt?  It helps all of us -- we live in a society.  What's your position on the mandate to pay taxes?  What's your position on the mandate to buy auto insurance if you drive?  What's your position on the mandate to drive the speed limit or risk a fine.   What's your position on the mandate to wear helmets when riding a motorcycle?   

This libertarian nonsense can only go so far without descending into anarchy.

1 hour ago, ToastJenkins said:

You are no better sadly

PP should get no federal money either. If you believe in it, you finance it.

So you are okay with abortions as long as no federal money goes towards it.  Okay, then I get to say none of my money goes to any religious causes.   Dude -- you really think your .00006 of a cent that goes to planned parrenthood is a big deal?  That's just grandstanding.  You personally aren't financing abortions.  

1 hour ago, ToastJenkins said:

Holy F you join caesar in the zero self awareness pool. You just described ypur entire political view.

How is being pro abortion nosing into other people's business? No one is forcing anyone to get an abortion.

11 minutes ago, TEW said:

Well, if you're argument is to legalize the murder of undesirables then there's not much more to talk about.

Yes, and it is already legal.  You want your 14 year old daughter to be raped and carry to term - good on you.  Don't make others do the same.   I'm glad that you care so much about other embryos.  Aren't you a nice guy.  You will definitely go to heaven.     

 

3 minutes ago, caesar said:

How is being pro abortion nosing into other people's business? No one is forcing anyone to get an abortion.

He's saying that by definition, being a Democrat, is advocacy for sticking your nose into other people's business. Which is a position that a libertarian would take. There's zero room for nuance in that world. 

2 hours ago, ToastJenkins said:

You are no better sadly

PP should get no federal money either. If you believe in it, you finance it.

LOL -- there are tens of millions of abortions around the world - roughly 50 MILLION a year.  You really think a law banning it will stop this:

https://www.worldometers.info/abortions/

Frankly, I'm glad we don't add all of those humans to the over population we already have.  

"In the USA, where nearly half of pregnancies are unintended and four in 10 of these are terminated by abortion [1] , there are over 3,000 abortions per day. Twenty-two percent of all pregnancies in the USA (excluding miscarriages) end in abortion."

Good luck with your petty laws to make politicians look good to religious freaks!

45 minutes ago, caesar said:

Yes, and it is already legal.  You want your 14 year old daughter to be raped and carry to term - good on you.  Don't make others do the same.   I'm glad that you care so much about other embryos.  Aren't you a nice guy.  You will definitely go to heaven.     

 

Where life begins, killing is murder even if the life is inconvenient. I mean, sh**, I could make an argument about how burdensome millions of people are in this country. Worthless, resource sucking people with no inclination or ability to ever pull their own weight. And yet we don’t just murder them. Because that would be evil.

And I’m not sure why you keep bringing up religion. I’m not religious. At all. I’m rather a fan of Dawkins, Hitchens, Harris and Dennett. This issue has nothing to do with religion. 

18 hours ago, TEW said:

Wrong.

You can be charged with homicide for killing an unborn baby.

 

Even in theocratic states and countries, like Texas, there is a distinction between homicide and fetal homicide.  In many other states and countries it is more of an enhanced punishment if you killed a pregnant mother to be, more like a hate crime.  

1 hour ago, TEW said:

Where life begins, killing is murder even if the life is inconvenient. I mean, sh**, I could make an argument about how burdensome millions of people are in this country. Worthless, resource sucking people with no inclination or ability to ever pull their own weight. And yet we don’t just murder them. Because that would be evil.

And I’m not sure why you keep bringing up religion. I’m not religious. At all. I’m rather a fan of Dawkins, Hitchens, Harris and Dennett. This issue has nothing to do with religion. 

If it is life -- so what, irrelevant.   Convicted criminals are life -- we kill them (as we make it legal to do so sometimes).  We have and can do the same thing here with fetuses/embryos.   Laws are a construct - made up by man.  We can make it legal regardless of when "life" starts.   Abortions don't happen because life does or does not start -- they happen because being pregnant is not always what the mother intended, wants or can handle.   Life is not the issue.  I'll grant you, for sake of argument, that life starts at conception.  Big deal.  Still think abortion will happen and should happen in many circumstances.    Shrug.    Life is not the sacred point you make it out to be (religious or otherwise).  If so, cars would be banned.

1 hour ago, TEW said:

Where life begins, killing is murder even if the life is inconvenient. I mean, sh**, I could make an argument about how burdensome millions of people are in this country. Worthless, resource sucking people with no inclination or ability to ever pull their own weight. And yet we don’t just murder them. Because that would be evil.

And I’m not sure why you keep bringing up religion. I’m not religious. At all. I’m rather a fan of Dawkins, Hitchens, Harris and Dennett. This issue has nothing to do with religion. 

No -- life beginning is not what makes abortion legal or not in most states -- as that is besides the point.  Abortion happens for many reasons -- not whether or not it is a "life".   Abortion should be regulated -- but not banned entirely.  That's the logical response.  Similar to other things we disapprove of.

1 hour ago, TEW said:

Where life begins, killing is murder even if the life is inconvenient. I mean, sh**, I could make an argument about how burdensome millions of people are in this country. Worthless, resource sucking people with no inclination or ability to ever pull their own weight. And yet we don’t just murder them. Because that would be evil.

And I’m not sure why you keep bringing up religion. I’m not religious. At all. I’m rather a fan of Dawkins, Hitchens, Harris and Dennett. This issue has nothing to do with religion. 

So if your 14 year was raped and got pregnant -- no abortion?  Good for you. Don't force that on others who don't care about when "life" starts in the abortion debate (which is not relevant to why abortions can, will and should happen).