9 minutes ago, ToastJenkins said:

Often more objective views can be found from the outside. So yes its quite possible if you are willing to set aside ego and listen

The evidence TEW cited of teachers not doing a good job was that we spend more per pupil than any other country, and then don’t get the results he wants.  I’d argue that we spend more per pupil because we’re the richest country on earth.  

Not results he didnt want. Objectively poor results. Big difference.

You have the fatal conceit that has doomed many private businesses as well over the years. You end up with the people who ARE the problem claiming they should be (and often are) in charge of solving the problem. So of course you arent going to arrive at or accept that conclusion. And the failure perpetuates. 

8 minutes ago, ToastJenkins said:

Not results he didnt want. Objectively poor results. Big difference.

You have the fatal conceit that has doomed many private businesses as well over the years. You end up with the people who ARE the problem claiming they should be (and often are) in charge of solving the problem. So of course you arent going to arrive at or accept that conclusion. And the failure perpetuates. 

So you think the solution is to put the lowest educated parents in charge of deciding the curriculum and that the outcome will somehow be improved?

9 hours ago, Dave Moss said:

Serious question, do you think TEW, a bachelor who doesn’t work in education, knows more about what goes on in schools than a teacher with multiple kids in multiple different schools?

serious answer:

No one has to have kids in school to be concerened about the education of children in our society, they are our future. 

The info is more readily available today then ever before about what is being taught, and parents have more visibility to it, due to the pandemic and some kids being sheltered at home for schooling. And being that there are lots of examples being given by parents who researched what their children are being taught  in some schools at school board meetings. One does not have to do more than start watching the videos of parents reciting what is being taught with examples, to determine we should all be concerned. 

The minority of radical progressives cant be the only seat at the table during these discussions of what is being taught. Nor should the decisions be made by radicals on the right alone either. 

Parents and concerned citizens should all be heard, and in no way should they be told they are domestic terrorists for being concenrened about what is being taught and vocalizing that to the PUBLICALLY ELECTED SCHOOL BOARD OFFICIALS at school board meetings held specifically for such purposes. .

 

 

 

45 minutes ago, Dave Moss said:

So you think the solution is to put the lowest educated parents in charge of deciding the curriculum and that the outcome will somehow be improved?

You think teachers are on average better educated than most?

1 minute ago, Outlaw said:

You think teachers are on average better educated than most?

Considering an education is only as good as what you are being taught, they may be higher educated, but you can certainly question the overall quality of higher education.

Example: CRT- is being taught in UNiversities.

CRT by definition of Racism (see below) Is 100% racist. 

So yes they are higher educated, but.......

 

 

Racism is the belief that groups of humans possess different behavioral traits corresponding to inherited attributes and can be divided based on the superiority of one race over another.^[1][2][3] It may also mean prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against other people because they are of a different race or ethnicity.^[2] Modern variants of racism are often based in social perceptions of biological differences between peoples. These views can take the form of social actions, practices or beliefs, or political systems in which different races are ranked as inherently superior or inferior to each other, based on presumed shared inheritable traits, abilities, or qualities

 

 

 

 

Just now, Ipiggles said:

Considering an education is only as good as what you are being taught, they may be higher educated, but you can certainly question the overall quality of higher education.

Example: CRT- is being taught in UNiversities.

CRT by definition of Racism (see below) Is 100% racist. 

So yes they are higher educated, but.......

 

 

Racism is the belief that groups of humans possess different behavioral traits corresponding to inherited attributes and can be divided based on the superiority of one race over another.^[1][2][3] It may also mean prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against other people because they are of a different race or ethnicity.^[2] Modern variants of racism are often based in social perceptions of biological differences between peoples. These views can take the form of social actions, practices or beliefs, or political systems in which different races are ranked as inherently superior or inferior to each other, based on presumed shared inheritable traits, abilities, or qualities

 

 

 

 

I just find it comical that he insinuated that teachers are essentially smarter than the average parent.

8 minutes ago, Outlaw said:

You think teachers are on average better educated than most?

I think the richest most successful people send their kids to private school.  At a public school of course you have some parents who are better educated than the teachers.  I wouldn’t say it’s the norm though.

2 minutes ago, Outlaw said:

I just find it comical that he insinuated that teachers are essentially smarter than the average parent.

Teachers are the avg parent LOL

2 minutes ago, Outlaw said:

I just find it comical that he insinuated that teachers are essentially smarter than the average parent.

Not sure where you live but most teachers are certified to teach. Meaning they’ve had some training and if they’re more experienced they’ve also been doing professional development.

Just now, Dave Moss said:

I think the richest most successful people send their kids to private school.  At a public school of course you have some parents who are better educated than the teachers.  I wouldn’t say it’s the norm though.

We're talking about grade school, middle school and high school teachers here...not tenured college professors.  

1 minute ago, Ipiggles said:

Teachers are the avg parent LOL

That was kind of my point.

2 minutes ago, Dave Moss said:

I think the richest most successful people send their kids to private school.  At a public school of course you have some parents who are better educated than the teachers.  I wouldn’t say it’s the norm though.

Does that mean you’re open to discussing things with some parents but not the others?

1 minute ago, Outlaw said:

We're talking about grade school, middle school and high school teachers here...not tenured college professors.  

That was kind of my point.

Well to be clear if I’m trying to pick between two people to do a job I’d be more likely to pick the person who has some training for that job as opposed to the person who does not have any training for that job.

1 minute ago, DrPhilly said:

Does that mean you’re open to discussing things with some parents but not the others?

I don’t understand what you’re asking.

5 minutes ago, Dave Moss said:

Well to be clear if I’m trying to pick between two people to do a job I’d be more likely to pick the person who has some training for that job as opposed to the person who does not have any training for that job.

I don’t understand what you’re asking.

Definitely can understand that.  My point was that you're implying the average parent is dumber than the average teacher, and I don't believe that to be the case.

8 minutes ago, Outlaw said:

We're talking about grade school, middle school and high school teachers here...not tenured college professors.  

That was kind of my point.

I have relative who is a Sociology & Criminal Justice Professor at a fairly big University  - Trust me when I say this. She is nothing to write home about. She is educated on all the important gender studies etc, but yet is not very smart, has almost no ability to think on her own.  Again an education - ANY- education is only as good as what you are bieng taught

 

Man, so hard to understand why people don't want to be teachers anymore after reading 30 pages of this. Seems like such a great job and you get support from everyone!

Just now, Outlaw said:

Definitely can understand that.  My point was that you're implying the average parent is dumber than the average teacher, and I don't believe that to be the case.

And i'll add they should have more input as to what their kids are being taught VS having no say. 

I have no training or certification to operate heavy machinery. But I have a degree. That means I can give orders to the construction workers on my commute. Get out of the way! They're holding me up! 

6 minutes ago, toolg said:

I have no training or certification to operate heavy machinery. But I have a degree. That means I can give orders to the construction workers on my commute. Get out of the way! They're holding me up! 

You should be designing the roads and bridges  as well!

17 minutes ago, BirdsFanBill said:

Man, so hard to understand why people don't want to be teachers anymore after reading 30 pages of this. Seems like such a great job and you get support from everyone!

7 minutes ago, Dave Moss said:

You should be designing the roads and bridges  as well!

I'm not saying parents are more qualified to teach than the teachers...I'm saying that dismissing them wanting to have input into their children's education because they don't have a bachelor's in elementary education from SNHU is pretty ridiculous.

1 hour ago, ToastJenkins said:

Often more objective views can be found from the outside. So yes its quite possible if you are willing to set aside ego and listen

yeah, when I think "I want an objective viewpoint" TEW is the first guy that comes to mind.

22 minutes ago, BirdsFanBill said:

Man, so hard to understand why people don't want to be teachers anymore after reading 30 pages of this. Seems like such a great job and you get support from everyone!

Honestly nothing has changed.  I grew up watching my mother (teacher/administrator) go thru this for a couple of decades.

32 minutes ago, Dave Moss said:

I don’t understand what you’re asking.

Does the education level of the parent matter to you in terms of whether or not you are willing to engage in discussion about what to teach to their children?

1 minute ago, DrPhilly said:

Honestly nothing has changed.  I grew up watching my mother (teacher/administrator) go thru this for a couple of decades.

Yes and no. They're the same battles but because of technology/ SM more people have opinions and can be heard now. Which isn't necessarily a good thing. In fact its a bad thing. 

1 hour ago, ToastJenkins said:

Not results he didnt want. Objectively poor results. Big difference.

You have the fatal conceit that has doomed many private businesses as well over the years. You end up with the people who ARE the problem claiming they should be (and often are) in charge of solving the problem. So of course you arent going to arrive at or accept that conclusion. And the failure perpetuates. 

I think it's far too simplistic to say our education system overall is "objectively poor".

School performance has mirrored income inequality in a lot of ways: the bad schools have gotten worse, and the good schools have gotten better by comparison for the most part. 

The quality of public schools in the US is wildly unequal. If you exclude just the bottom 10% of schools nationwide you get a much different picture of the quality of our education. The same cannot be said of those nations that have leapfrogged us, whose educational systems are a bit more consistent throughout (they have some unevenness to them as well to be sure, but not nearly so much as here)

Obviously the bottom 10% are part of our system for good or bad, I only say that to illustrate my point.