May 15, 20214 yr 25 minutes ago, VanHammersly said: Well no sheet we’re not now. My hypothetical was in 1948. Your hypothetical sucks regardless of the year. And FYI, it was the Jewish people who pushed for Israel. That's what they wanted. The term Zionism has an actual meaning and history that predates WW2.
May 15, 20214 yr Some Jews started moving to the Middle East before WWII. Jews weren’t welcome in Europe for centuries prior to the Holocaust. The Holocaust made the issue of creating a Jewish state a priority for world powers and the UN though.
May 15, 20214 yr 37 minutes ago, TEW said: The term Zionism has an actual meaning and history that predates WW2. Theodor Herzel
May 15, 20214 yr 11 hours ago, TEW said: Your hypothetical sucks regardless of the year. And FYI, it was the Jewish people who pushed for Israel. That's what they wanted. The term Zionism has an actual meaning and history that predates WW2. I know what they wanted but it was already taken. If I were Truman I would’ve said Montana, take it or leave it.
May 15, 20214 yr Quote Israel strike in Gaza destroys building with AP, other media GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip — An Israeli airstrike targeted and destroyed a high-rise building in Gaza City that housed offices of The Associated Press and other media outlets hours after another Israeli air raid on a densely populated refugee camp killed at least 10 Palestinians from an extended family, mostly children, on Saturday. The strike on the high-rise came nearly an hour after the military ordered people to evacuate the 12-story building, which also housed Al-Jazeera, other offices and residential apartments. The strike brought down the entire structure, which collapsed in a gigantic cloud of dust. There was no immediate explanation for why it was attacked. The earlier Israeli airstrike on the Gaza City refugee camp was the deadliest single strike of the current conflict between Israel and the militant group Hamas. Both sides are pressing for an advantage as cease-fire efforts gather strength. The latest outburst of violence started in Jerusalem and spread across the region over the past week, with Jewish-Arab clashes and rioting in mixed cities of Israel. There were also widespread Palestinian protests Friday in the occupied West Bank, where Israeli forces shot and killed 11 people. The spiraling violence has raised fears of a new Palestinian "intifada,” or uprising, when peace talks have not taken place in years. Palestinians on Saturday were marking Nakba (Catastrophe) Day, when they commemorate the estimated 700,000 people who were expelled from or fled their homes in what was now Israel during the 1948 war surrounding its creation. That raised the possibility of even more unrest. U.S. diplomat Hady Amr arrived Friday as part of Washington’s efforts to de-escalate the conflict, and the U.N. Security Council was set to meet Sunday. But Israel turned down an Egyptian proposal for a one-year truce that Hamas rulers had accepted, an Egyptian official said Friday on condition of anonymity to discuss the negotiations. Since Monday night, Hamas has fired hundreds of rockets into Israel, which has pounded the Gaza Strip with strikes. In Gaza, at least 139 people have been killed, including 39 children and 22 women; in Israel, eight people have been killed, including the death Saturday of a man killed by a rocket that hit in Ramat Gan, a suburb of Tel Aviv. The strike on the building housing media offices came in the afternoon, after the owner received a call from the Israeli military warning that the building would be hit. AP’s staff and others in the building evacuated immediately, and were reported safe. Al-Jazeera, the news network funded by Qatar’s government, broadcast the airstrikes live as the building collapsed. "This channel will not be silenced. Al-Jazeera will not be silenced,” an on-air anchorwoman from Al-Jazeera English said, her voice thick with emotion. "We can guarantee you that right now.” The bombardment earlier Saturday struck a three-story house in Gaza City’s Shati refugee camp, killing eight children and two women from an extended family. Mohammed Hadidi told reporters his wife and five children had gone to celebrate the Eid al-Fitr holiday with relatives. She and three of the children, aged 6 to 14, were killed, while an 11-year-old is missing. Only his 5-month-old son Omar is known to have survived. Children’s toys and a Monopoly board game could be seen among the rubble, as well as plates of uneaten food from the holiday gathering. "There was no warning,” said Jamal Al-Naji, a neighbor living in the same building. "You filmed people eating and then you bombed them?” he said, addressing Israel. "Why are you confronting us? Go and confront the strong people!” The Israeli military did not immediately respond to a request for comment. Hamas said it fired a salvo of rockets at southern Israel in response to the airstrike. A furious Israeli barrage early Friday killed a family of six in their house and sent thousands fleeing to U.N.-run shelters. The military said the operation involved 160 warplanes dropping some 80 tons of explosives over the course of 40 minutes and succeeded in destroying a vast tunnel network used by Hamas. Lt. Col. Jonathan Conricus, a military spokesman, said the military aims to minimize collateral damage in striking military targets. But measures it takes in other strikes, such as warning shots to get civilians to leave, were not "feasible this time.” Israeli media said the military believed dozens of militants were killed inside the tunnels. The Hamas and Islamic Jihad militant groups have confirmed 20 deaths in their ranks, but the military said the real number is far higher. Gaza’s infrastructure, already in widespread disrepair because of an Israeli-Egyptian blockade imposed after Hamas seized power in 2007, showed signs of breaking down further, compounding residents’ misery. The territory’s sole power plant is at risk of running out of fuel in the coming days. The U.N. said Gazans are already enduring daily power cuts of 8-12 hours and at least 230,000 have limited access to tap water. The impoverished and densely populated territory is home to 2 million Palestinians, most of them the descendants of refugees from what is now Israel. The conflict has reverberated widely. Israeli cities with mixed Arab and Jewish populations have seen nightly violence, with mobs from each community fighting in the streets and trashing each other’s property. Late on Friday, someone threw a firebomb at an Arab family’s home in the Ajami neighborhood of Tel Aviv, striking two children. A 12-year-old boy was in moderate condition with burns on his upper body and a 10-year-old girl was treated for a head injury, according to the Magen David Adom rescue service. In the occupied West Bank, on the outskirts of Ramallah, Nablus and other towns and cities, hundreds of Palestinians protested the Gaza campaign and Israeli actions in Jerusalem. Waving Palestinian flags, they trucked in tires that they set up in burning barricades and hurled stones at Israeli soldiers. At least 10 protesters were shot and killed by soldiers. An 11th Palestinian was killed when he tried to stab a soldier at a military position. In east Jerusalem, online video showed young Jewish nationalists firing pistols as they traded volleys of stones with Palestinians in Sheikh Jarrah, which became a flashpoint for tensions over attempts by settlers to forcibly evict a number of Palestinian families from their homes. On Israel’s northern border, troops opened fire when a group of Lebanese and Palestinian protesters on the other side cut through the border fence and briefly crossed. One Lebanese was killed. Three rockets were fired toward Israel from neighboring Syria without causing any casualties or damage. It was not immediately known who fired them. The tensions began in east Jerusalem earlier this month, with Palestinian protests against the Sheikh Jarrah evictions and Israeli police measures at Al-Aqsa Mosque, a frequent flashpoint located on a mount in the Old City revered by Muslims and Jews. Hamas fired rockets toward Jerusalem late Monday, in an apparent attempt to present itself as the champion of the protesters. Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has vowed that Hamas will "pay a very heavy price” for its rocket attacks as Israel has massed troops at the frontier. U.S. President Joe Biden has expressed support for Israel while saying he hopes to bring the violence under control. Hamas has fired some 2,000 rockets toward Israel since Monday, according to the Israeli military. Most have been intercepted by anti-missile defenses, but they have brought life to a standstill in southern Israeli cities, caused disruptions at airports and have set off air raid sirens in Tel Aviv and Jerusalem. https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/israel-strike-in-gaza-destroys-building-with-ap-other-media
May 15, 20214 yr 3 hours ago, VanHammersly said: I know what they wanted but it was already taken. If I were Truman I would’ve said Montana, take it or leave it. It was British. They gave it to them. Truman would have been a moron to give up any land whatsoever.
May 15, 20214 yr Palestine was nominally sovereign but technically a protectorate prior to 1948; it's legal status was that of a British Mandate as established by the League of Nations in 1919. I'm not sure to what degree it actually became independent under the original United Nations plan, but this was intended to ultimately provide for a two-state solution.
May 15, 20214 yr On 5/14/2021 at 1:29 PM, VanHammersly said: Right, but they both believe God wants them there. And the whole notion that God cares where a specific group of people live is just silly. The facts were, in 1948, that the Palestinians were living on the land. If you want to avoid either sustained ethnic cleansing or never-ending war the only option was to find a more suitable place for displaced Jewish people. Montana was perfect because it's huge, sparsely populated and owned by the US. But they didn't do that and now it'll be a never-ending war. I don't really care who's right or wrong at this specific point in time. In a sense, they're both right and they're both wrong, because there are hundreds of examples of both sides overstepping through the years. But at one point, it was under near complete Palestinian control. That would've been the time to come up with a better plan. Your solution is hardly the only solution, given its basically nonsense near control is not control. They might have been there but it wasnt their land
May 15, 20214 yr 16 minutes ago, toolg said: Israel has some explaining to do If they're not already there, they're getting uncomfortably close to war crimes territory, but we'll remain silent, of course. For better or worse, diplomacy sure does make for some unsavory bedfellows. Regardless, I'm glad that the AP is on this. Probably not the smartest move to strike an international news agency during your reign of terror. The media's desire to expose their misdeeds just increased tenfold.
May 16, 20214 yr On 5/14/2021 at 6:23 PM, EaglesRocker97 said: Thank you for the post. I do appreciate your perspective on these issues. Thank you as well. I really enjoy our conversation, and very much appreciate your desire to understand both sides of the conflict.
May 16, 20214 yr On 5/14/2021 at 5:03 PM, greend said: Okay well I'm not sure if our new Jewish poster can confirm or not, but they believe that the land where they are now was promised to them by God. So I don't think Montana would have worked for them. Interested to see what he says though. Sure, but I can only present my own position - I can't speak here for the majority of the Israeli population (which is extremely varied, by the way). I am not religious, moreover, technically, I'm not even Jewish. My father is Jewish and my mother is Russian. According to Halakha, you're Jewish only if your mother is Jewish. I was born in Moscow and have immigrated to Israel at the age of 16. I went to high school, served in the IDF for 3 years, studied in the Tel Aviv University, have a family and run a small business. To make a long story short: Israel is my country not because I am religious, not because of ideology, not because of any kind of spiritual connection to Jerusalem - but because this country has given me a fair chance to succeed and become, in general, a happy person. And for this I love my country. It absolutely doesn't matter to me where Israel is located, I would have loved it as much as I do now. Be it Montana (I would prefer Florida myself 😉, but Montana is OK for me), Uganda or whatever. Actually there was a plan to create the Jewish state in Uganda, but it didn't work out: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uganda_Scheme Of course, all this talk is hypothetical and unrealistic. And yes, 1948 was already too late for this. The stage was set long before:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Aliyah So, after all we have our country in the Middle East, so we have to defend ourselves from multiple threats, as we did for years. It's not easy, not for us and not for our neighbors. As I have previously said, the situation is extremely complicated.
May 16, 20214 yr 12 hours ago, EaglesRocker97 said: Palestine was nominally sovereign but technically a protectorate prior to 1948; it's legal status was that of a British Mandate as established by the League of Nations in 1919. I'm not sure to what degree it actually became independent under the original United Nations plan, but this was intended to ultimately provide for a two-state solution. "...which the Jewish leadership accepted, and the Palestinian Arab leaders, as well as the Arab states, unanimously opposed". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1947–1949_Palestine_war
May 16, 20214 yr On 5/15/2021 at 6:17 AM, TEW said: The worst greatest ally of all time. This is politics. Even the best allies practicing espionage against each other:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel–United_States_relations#American_espionage_against_Israel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel–United_States_relations#Israeli_espionage_against_the_United_States
May 16, 20214 yr On 5/15/2021 at 5:26 AM, TEW said: They have their home land, and frankly, they’ve been horrible "allies” as a nation. https://besacenter.org/israel-intelligence-cold-war/ https://www.trtworld.com/magazine/israel-helped-the-us-track-bin-laden-in-pakistan-former-cia-chief-42207 https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/friends-benefits-why-us-israeli-alliance-good-america May I ask, what would you expect?
May 16, 20214 yr 13 hours ago, toolg said: Israel has some explaining to do There are sources telling otherwise:https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/israel-showed-us-smoking-gun-on-hamas-in-ap-office-tower-officials-say-668303 Did you actually expect Mr. LaPorta to say something like "Yeah, you know, guys from Hamas come here and there for a cup of tea for 15 years to chat with us about football"? How do we know who's telling more truth, Mr. LaPorta or Jerusalem Post?
May 16, 20214 yr 2 hours ago, ilross2003 said: https://besacenter.org/israel-intelligence-cold-war/ https://www.trtworld.com/magazine/israel-helped-the-us-track-bin-laden-in-pakistan-former-cia-chief-42207 https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/friends-benefits-why-us-israeli-alliance-good-america May I ask, what would you expect? Israel not to hand over sensitive technology to Russia and China? Israel not to bomb our ships? Sure, Israel helped us track down UBL — that was pure self interest on their part. There is more to being a great ally than acting in your own self interest. They are a horrible ally to the US, point blank. It’s a relationship partly of necessity and partly of AIPAC lobbying.
May 16, 20214 yr 2 minutes ago, TEW said: Israel not to hand over sensitive technology to Russia and China? Israel not to bomb our ships? Sure, Israel helped us track down UBL — that was pure self interest on their part. There is more to being a great ally than acting in your own self interest. They are a horrible ally to the US, point blank. It’s a relationship partly of necessity and partly of AIPAC lobbying. This is politics, it's ALL about interest. This is how ALL the world works, it doesn't matter if it is NATO, Warsaw Pact or whatever. There's no sentiments, no true friendship in politics and never been.
May 16, 20214 yr The effectiveness of the Israel lobby and the ineffectiveness of the Palestinian lobby is the difference here. Support for Israel is one of the few commonalities between the two political parties in the U.S.
May 16, 20214 yr I’ve got so much I want to say about the First Amendment as I sort of understand it, but it is bonkers. I don’t want to start going down the First Amendment route because that’s a huge subject and one which I don’t understand because I’ve only been here a short time. But, you can find a loophole in anything. You can capitalise or exploit what’s not said rather than uphold what is said. - The Harry formerly known as a Prince
May 16, 20214 yr 2 hours ago, ilross2003 said: This is politics, it's ALL about interest. This is how ALL the world works, it doesn't matter if it is NATO, Warsaw Pact or whatever. There's no sentiments, no true friendship in politics and never been. No, it’s not how ALL the world works. There is being a good faith ally and there is being a sh**y ally. Israel is the latter. They are a sh**y ally. You don’t see the UK handing US military technology over to the Russians. You don’t see Poland handing US military technology over to the Chinese. You don’t see NATO countries sinking US Navy ships.
May 16, 20214 yr So who's land is this? I am reading articles dating back to the Ottoman Empire and the British gave the land to the Jewish people. Is this true or what is the truth?
May 16, 20214 yr 1 hour ago, DaEagles4Life said: So who's land is this? I am reading articles dating back to the Ottoman Empire and the British gave the land to the Jewish people. Is this true or what is the truth? The truth is it's been changing hands since before the Roman Empire. Basically, everyone has a "claim" and it's a situation of might makes right.
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