May 18, 20214 yr 5 minutes ago, Gannan said: The Palestinians consistently vote for Hamas to lead them. I'm not familiar with their electoral results or even how fairly their elections are run, but I stand by the assertion that there are plenty of Palestinians who don't support Hamas. At the end of the day, though, a lot of the support for Hamas stems not so much out of affinity for them but fear of Israel trying to wipe them off the map. Palestinians rightly feel like they are on the wrong end of an ethnic cleansing.
May 18, 20214 yr 6 minutes ago, Gannan said: What am I arguing? I think Rowdy Roddy Piper said it best... The Palestinians are being systemically removed from their land and your beef seems to be their reaction to it.
May 18, 20214 yr 5 minutes ago, EaglesRocker97 said: I'm not familiar with their electoral results or even how fairly their elections are run, but I stand by the assertion that there are plenty of Palestinians who don't support Hamas. At the end of the day, though, a lot of the support for Hamas stems not so much out of affinity for them but fear of Israel trying to wipe them off the map. Palestinians rightly feel like they are on the wrong end of an ethnic cleansing. stand by it based on what, exactly? wish casting seems like... and who cares how they feel once they resort to violence/terrorism
May 18, 20214 yr 7 minutes ago, EaglesRocker97 said: I'm not familiar with their electoral results or even how fairly their elections are run, but I stand by the assertion that there are plenty of Palestinians who don't support Hamas. At the end of the day, though, a lot of the support for Hamas stems not so much out of affinity for them but fear of Israel trying to wipe them off the map. Palestinians rightly feel like they are on the wrong end of an ethnic cleansing. This was 6 days ago Hamas official reportedly urges people to ‘cut off the heads of Jews A senior Hamas official has reportedly called on Jerusalem residents to buy "five shekel knives” to "cut off the heads of Jews” in a recent video. "People of Jerusalem, we want you to cut off the heads of the Jews with knives. With your hand, cut their artery from here,” Fathi Hammad, Hamas Political Bureau member and former interior minister, says in the clip, which was translated by the Middle East Media Research Institute. "A knife costs five shekels [about $1.50]. Buy a knife, sharpen it, put it there, and just cut off [their heads]. It costs just five shekels. With those five shekels, you will humiliate the Jewish state,” he said. https://nypost.com/2021/05/12/hamas-official-tells-people-to-cut-off-the-heads-of-jews-report/
May 18, 20214 yr 2 minutes ago, Dave Moss said: The Palestinians are being systemically removed from their land and your beef seems to be their reaction to it. Yes! Exactly. It's a legal dispute. The Palestinians answer to legal disputes is violence. So yes I have beef with violence and murder against innocent people. I'm quirky like that.
May 18, 20214 yr 2 minutes ago, Gannan said: Yes! Exactly. It's a legal dispute. The Palestinians answer to legal disputes is violence. So yes I have beef with violence and murder against innocent people. I'm quirky like that. How about we remove Hamas from the Palestinian people so they can live freely and stop the blame on Israel.
May 18, 20214 yr 9 minutes ago, EaglesRocker97 said: I'm not familiar with their electoral results or even how fairly their elections are run, but I stand by the assertion that there are plenty of Palestinians who don't support Hamas. At the end of the day, though, a lot of the support for Hamas stems not so much out of affinity for them but fear of Israel trying to wipe them off the map. Palestinians rightly feel like they are on the wrong end of an ethnic cleansing. Ethnic cleansing? The Palestinians elected a government of terrorists who will not concede Israel's right to exist. The US, Russia, and THE EU all said they would recognize the Palestinian government and even send aid. All they had to do was renounce violence and recognize Israel's right to exist. That's literally it. Hamas refused. The Palestinians then thought it would be a good idea to reelect Hamas. The Palestinians have brought this all on themselves.
May 18, 20214 yr 1 minute ago, Gannan said: Yes! Exactly. It's a legal dispute. The Palestinians answer to legal disputes is violence. So yes I have beef with violence and murder against innocent people. I'm quirky like that. A legal dispute that was deftly handled by Jared and Ivanka, amirite?
May 18, 20214 yr Just now, Dave Moss said: A legal dispute that was deftly handled by Jared and Ivanka, amirite? Yeah I would have thought Jared's years of being a criminal slum lord would have made him uniquely qualified to get this settled so fast our heads would spin, but who knew the Israeli-Palestinian conflict could be so complicated? I hear that the new super improved peace plan that makes everyone super happy is coming in just a few weeks.
May 18, 20214 yr 4 minutes ago, Gannan said: Ethnic cleansing? The Palestinians elected a government of terrorists who will not concede Israel's right to exist. The US, Russia, and THE EU all said they would recognize the Palestinian government and even send aid. All they had to do was renounce violence and recognize Israel's right to exist. That's literally it. Hamas refused. The Palestinians then thought it would be a good idea to reelect Hamas. The Palestinians have brought this all on themselves. They were supposed to re vote this year with the last election in 2006, but that was delayed and looked like Hamas was going to gain even more support. JERUSALEM (AP) — President Mahmoud Abbas announced early Friday that the first Palestinian elections in 15 years will be delayed, citing a dispute with Israel to call off a vote in which his fractured Fatah party was expected to suffer another embarrassing defeat to the Hamas militant group. Hamas slammed the move as a "coup.” But the indefinite postponement will be quietly welcomed by Israel and Western countries, which view the Islamic militant group as a terrorist organization and are concerned about its growing strength https://apnews.com/article/hamas-middle-east-elections-religion-government-and-politics-e88636bc919f8aab455e01fbbd4b4391
May 18, 20214 yr 10 minutes ago, Gannan said: Ethnic cleansing? The Palestinians elected a government of terrorists who will not concede Israel's right to exist. The US, Russia, and THE EU all said they would recognize the Palestinian government and even send aid. All they had to do was renounce violence and recognize Israel's right to exist. That's literally it. Hamas refused. The Palestinians then thought it would be a good idea to reelect Hamas. The Palestinians have brought this all on themselves. ....and Israel attacked a mosque on the last day of Ramadan while Palestinians were praying inside. This is after decades of effectively ghettoizing the Palestinian population. They sure are doing their best to instigate more conflict. There is much more violence on a daily, systematic level that we don't even see on the news. We only see this stuff when it turns into total chaos. Even if a majority of Palestinians re-elect Hamas, what about those who didn't vote for them? They, too, should be slaughtered, for the sins of their brothers and sisters? This is how genocides begin. There are no saints in this dispute. I don't want to choose sides, but I do want to push back against this unquestionable support that many have for Israel. Yes, they have the right to defend themselves, but a lot of this pushes beyond what can reasonably be justified as "defense." 12 minutes ago, DaEagles4Life said: How about we remove Hamas from the Palestinian people so they can live freely and stop the blame on Israel. In a perfect world, this is exactly what you'd do, but how would this be achieved? I know Hamas makes it hard to distinguish, but that's exactly why these disputes prove almost impossible to win. It's like how the Vietcong blended in with Vietnamese villagers, so we just decided to burn down entire villages. All it does is intensify hatred of outsiders and endear the local population to their overlords. What Israel is doing right now is a propaganda godsend to Hamas.
May 18, 20214 yr You've also got Netanyahu courting his own group of entho-fascists. He's currying favor with the most extremist, far-right Israeli elements in order to stay in power, because he was likely on the outs before this dispute. You've got crowds of Jewish nationalists emboldened, rolling down streets chanting "death to Arabs."
May 18, 20214 yr 1 hour ago, jsdarkstar said: Well there was no such thing as Palestinians in 600 AD. or in 1948, Nice try. Oh, then I guess there is no such thing as native Americans because the word didn’t exist. Big brain take there!
May 18, 20214 yr 3 minutes ago, TEW said: Oh, then I guess there is no such thing as native Americans because the word didn’t exist. Big brain take there! Ok. So where's you're proof Palestinians existed before 1948? Or are they people from Trans Jordan, Egypt and Syria? Are they any different then people who live there? Let's see your big brain on display. And the Indians are Jews again, who established a Nation with Israel as it's Capital 1000 years before Islam.
May 18, 20214 yr 1 hour ago, jsdarkstar said: So by that logic, anyone who controls the land, is entitled to the land, until some one else defeats them. So, I take it, you support Manifest Destiny and the control of the land away from the Indians. It’s called being a realist. Geopolitics isn’t nice. Does this really need to be explained?
May 18, 20214 yr Just now, jsdarkstar said: Ok. So where's you're proof Palestinians existed before 1948? Or are they people from Trans Jordan, Egypt and Syria? Are they any different then people who live there? Let's see your big brain on display. Are you really implying that zero people occupied the current land of Israel before 1948? Is that the level we’re at?
May 18, 20214 yr 2 minutes ago, TEW said: It’s called being a realist. Geopolitics isn’t nice. Does this really need to be explained? Right. So those who Conqueror the land get to keep it until another defeats them. That's how the history works. Just now, TEW said: Are you really implying that zero people occupied the current land of Israel before 1948? Is that the level we’re at? Yeah, Mark Twain made those very comments.
May 18, 20214 yr 4 minutes ago, jsdarkstar said: Right. So those who Conqueror the land get to keep it until another defeats them. That's how the history works. Yeah, Mark Twain made those very comments. That is how history works. How history also works is that the occupied locals carry a lot of hatred, anger and resentment and often times are willing to keep the fight going as infinitum. Welcome to the real world, where the Palestinians aren’t just going to lay over and die. Put another way, if the Chinese invaded America, and conquered it, many Americans would continue the fight even after the traditional war was over. The Chinese would label the Americans terrorists and we would call ourselves freedom fighters, and neutral outside observers would likely have more sympathy for the Americans than the Chinese.
May 18, 20214 yr Worth the read Quote In a world in which massive violations of human rights have, tragically, become the norm, why has the hard left focused on one of the least compelling of those causes — namely, the Palestinians? Where is the concern for the Kurds, the Chechens, the Uyghurs, the Tibetans? There are no campus demonstrations on their behalf, no expressions of concern by "the Squad” in Congress, no United Nations resolutions, no recurring op-eds in The New York Times, and no claims that the nations that oppress these groups have no right to exist. On the merits and demerits of their claims, the Palestinians have the weakest case. They have been offered statehood and independence on numerous occasions: in 1938, 1948, 1967, 2000-2001 and 2008. Israel ended its occupation of the Gaza Strip in 2005. Yet, even now, Palestinian leaders refuse to sit down and negotiate a reasonable two-state solution. As the late Israeli diplomat Abba Eban once aptly put it, the Palestinian leadership never misses an opportunity to miss an opportunity. Nor are history and morality on their side. The Palestinian leadership allied itself with Nazism and Hitler in the 1940s, with Egyptian tyranny and antisemitism in the 1950s, and with international terrorism from the 1960s forward. In 1947, the United Nations divided the land that the Romans called Palestine and the Jews called Yisrael into two areas. It provided a sliver of land along the Mediterranean and a non-arable desert called the Negev to the Jews, who were a majority in that area, and a much larger arable area to the Arabs. The Jews declared statehood on their land. Instead of declaring statehood on their land, the Palestinians and surrounding Arab nations declared war. The Arabs lost and the Jews captured more land. As a result of the war, there occurred an exchange of populations: Hundreds of thousands of Arabs left or were forced out of Israel, and hundreds of thousands of Jews left or were forced out of Arab countries and Arab Palestine. Again, in 1967, the surrounding Arab nations threatened to destroy Israel, which preemptively attacked and occupied the West Bank and Gaza, which it immediately offered to return — with some territorial adjustments necessary for security — in exchange for peace and recognition. The U.N. Security Council issued Resolution 242, which called for a return of captured territories in exchange for peace. Israel accepted. The Arab nations and the Palestinians, however, issued their three infamous "no’s” — no peace, no recognition, no negotiation. The Kurds have never been offered independence or statehood, despite treaties that promised it. Nor have the Tibetans, the Uyghurs or the Chechens. But the Palestinians have, on multiple occasions since 1938, when their leader told the Peale Commission that the Palestinians don’t want a state — they just want there not to be a Jewish state. The Palestinian people have suffered more from the ill-advised decisions of their leaders than from the actions of Israel. Back to the present: Hamas commits a double war crime every time it fires a lethal rocket at Israeli civilians from areas populated by its civilians, who they use as human shields. Israel responds proportionally in self-defense, as President Biden has emphasized. The Israel Defense Forces go to extraordinary lengths to try to minimize civilian casualties among Palestinians, despite Hamas’ policy of using civilian buildings — hospitals, schools, mosques, and high-rise buildings — to store, fire and plan their unlawful rockets and incendiary devices. Yet the hard left blames Israel alone, and many on the center-left create a moral equivalence between democratic Israel and terrorist Hamas. Why? The answer is clear and can be summarized in one word: Jews. The enemy of the Kurds, the Tibetans, the Uyghurs and the Chechens are not — unfortunately for them — the Jews. Hence, there is little concern for their plight. If the perceived enemy of the Palestinians were not the Jews, there would be little concern for their plight as well. This was proved by the relative silence that greeted the massacre of Palestinians by Jordan during "Black September” in 1970, or the killings of Palestinian Authority leaders in Gaza during the Hamas takeover in 2007. There has been relative silence, too, about the more than 4,000 Palestinians — mostly civilians— killed by Syria during that country’s current civil war. It is only when Jews or their nation are perceived to be oppressing Palestinians that the left seems to care about them. While the United States provides financial support for Israel, we also provide massive support for Jordan and Egypt. Even if the United States were to end support for Israel, the demonization of Israel by the hard left would not end. The left singles out the Palestinians not because of the merits of their case but, rather, because of the alleged demerits of Israel and the double standard universally applied to Jews. That is the sad reality. Former CIA director John Brennan as much as admitted this double standard when he complained in a tweet about the alleged lack of empathy by Jews: "I always found it difficult to fathom how a nation of people deeply scared by a history replete with prejudice, religious persecution, & unspeakable violence perpetrated against them would not be the empathetic champions of those whose rights & freedoms are still abridged.” As Seth Frantzman, a writer for the Jerusalem Post, aptly put it: "In his telling of it, he implied that Jews must have special empathy for others while non-Jews have no special need to be empathetic. Brennan has not … held other countries to a higher standard based on the ethnic and religious origins of their citizens … In short, because Jews endured genocide, they have to live according to a higher standard than those who perpetrated genocide.” This "benevolent” double standard may sound kinder than the malevolent double standard imposed by members of "the Squad” and others, but it has the same effect: it demands that Israel do less to protect its citizens from rockets and terrorism than is demanded from other countries. The same standard must be demanded of Israel as is demanded of other countries defending their citizens. In particular, the same standard must be demanded of Palestinians and their leaders as is demanded of other groups seeking the moral support of good people. As of now, the Palestinians have failed to meet that standard. I support the legitimate rights of Palestinians to a peaceful state, not so much because their history and actions merit it more than others, but because it would be good for peace in the region and for Israel. But I refuse to prioritize it over other more, or equally, compelling claims just because Jews are on the other side.
May 18, 20214 yr 17 minutes ago, Gannan said: Worth the read I don't think it's so much that they're Jews as it is that they are a democratic state established by the West after WWII, and one to which the U.S. provides heavy financial and material support. People hold Israel to higher standards than China, Syria, Russia, etc. It's not that they don't pity oppressed peoples elsewhere, but they don't expect their oppressors to conduct themselves honorably. You can say that's a double standard, but it's also just a natural reality of contemporary geopolitics. At the very least, we shouldn't aid and abet Israel's atrocities.
May 18, 20214 yr 37 minutes ago, TEW said: That is how history works. How history also works is that the occupied locals carry a lot of hatred, anger and resentment and often times are willing to keep the fight going as infinitum. Welcome to the real world, where the Palestinians aren’t just going to lay over and die. Put another way, if the Chinese invaded America, and conquered it, many Americans would continue the fight even after the traditional war was over. The Chinese would label the Americans terrorists and we would call ourselves freedom fighters, and neutral outside observers would likely have more sympathy for the Americans than the Chinese. Yeah, that's my point. Only difference is the people who lived there did not form a State of Their own or declare a Capitol City before they were conquered. They did not farm the land or have an economic system, or international trading partners. So outside observers can't say that their mere existence on the land gives them more rights then Conquerors who control the land, turned swamp land into farm land and farmed it and created a State and declared Capitol city and established an economic system, and were present there throughout history too amongst the other Arabs. Also, if they are not going to lay over die and they want to fight then there is no room for criticism for Israel to defend itself.
May 18, 20214 yr 45 minutes ago, TEW said: That is how history works. How history also works is that the occupied locals carry a lot of hatred, anger and resentment and often times are willing to keep the fight going as infinitum. Welcome to the real world, where the Palestinians aren’t just going to lay over and die. Put another way, if the Chinese invaded America, and conquered it, many Americans would continue the fight even after the traditional war was over. The Chinese would label the Americans terrorists and we would call ourselves freedom fighters, and neutral outside observers would likely have more sympathy for the Americans than the Chinese.
May 18, 20214 yr 1 hour ago, jsdarkstar said: Yeah, that's my point. Only difference is the people who lived there did not form a State of Their own or declare a Capitol City before they were conquered. They did not farm the land or have an economic system, or international trading partners. So outside observers can't say that their mere existence on the land gives them more rights then Conquerors who control the land, turned swamp land into farm land and farmed it and created a State and declared Capitol city and established an economic system, and were present there throughout history too amongst the other Arabs. Also, if they are not going to lay over die and they want to fight then there is no room for criticism for Israel to defend itself. Create a state or declare a capital? The whole area has been conquered and reconquered by everyone from ancient Egypt, Alexander the Great, and Rome to the Ottoman Empire, the British Empire and now Israel. They did not farm the land or have an economic system? I mean, that’s just blatantly false; economic activity stretches back thousands of years. It was one of the major economic hubs of the ancient world. I wonder, would you apply this logic to any other African natives? I guess outside observers can’t say that blacks have more of a right to the continent of Africa than the European colonial powers. And of course there is room for criticism. Israel is not perfect. By your logic, there is no room for criticism of the European Colonial system. But we all know this is false. There is plenty of room for criticism, even if on balance Israel is a net positive just like the colonial system is on balance a net positive. We can still take a step back and say there were some F’d up things that were done.
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