15 minutes ago, Road to Victory said:

No crap, I don’t need a lesson on the draft from you. If you really want to deal one of the picks, you wait until draft day and see who’s available. They’re right in a position where someone might want a QB and you trade down into the 2nd round and pick up a 1st next year plus another pick. This trade seemed desperate to me. Why do it now? The only way you do it now is if the Saints blow you away with an offer which they didn’t. 

You're contradicting yourself a little.  Earlier you said the value is in this year's pick and teams want picks now, not future (less value).  Now you're saying it's a good thing to trade back for future picks.  Your distinction is waiting to do it on draft day to see who's there.

Well, what if you're on draft day and people don't want to trade with you?  Howie also doesn't want to pay contracts to 3 different 1st rounders and wanted to secure future picks.  He probably talked to various teams and felt this was the best deal, and now he doesn't have to worry about it heading into the draft.  He's got future picks in 2 future years plus he may not be done yet.

He's also positioned with both 1st round picks selecting prior to the Saints two picks, so perhaps they discussed and aren't going after the same players, or he can still "win" over them by not worrying about trading with them only to have them take players he was interested in.  Some different angles to it.

29 minutes ago, NOTW said:

That's the GM's job. There have been reports that Howie (maybe Lurie) override the scouts.  For example, it's been said the scouts wanted Jefferson but Howie (or Doug?) wanted Reagor.  Hard to know because there's always gossip about this team.  But, the GM is ultimately responsible and Andy Weidl is over personnel specifically (he came with Joe Douglas and has remained).  So if either of them thought the scouts were a problem, they are in position to do something about it.  Ultimately, it falls on the GM to make the picks.  If throughout the process of scouting and setting the draft board Howie didn't like what he saw, he is the one to do something about that.

No I agree. I think that Howie deserves most of the blame but I am not buying that the scouts have nothing to do with the bad picks. For example, our scouts had Reagor and Jefferson with close enough grades to where Howie can use his 'discretion.' As we see them play, these two guys are not in the same stratosphere. This is both on Howie and the scouts.

Howie is not given the power to draft a 7th round grade prospect in the 1st round so I think the scouts have not been helping either with their grades on players.

59 minutes ago, philafan4o8 said:

At what point do we start pointing the finger at our scouts?

When Howie actually listens to them. 

4 minutes ago, EazyEaglez said:

When Howie actually listens to them. 

So every bad pick is Howie not following the board? hmmm doubt that. We know it has happened but clearly the draft boards are crap anyways for having some of these players close in rating

13 minutes ago, philafan4o8 said:

No I agree. I think that Howie deserves most of the blame but I am not buying that the scouts have nothing to do with the bad picks. For example, our scouts had Reagor and Jefferson with close enough grades to where Howie can use his 'discretion.' As we see them play, these two guys are not in the same stratosphere. This is both on Howie and the scouts.

Howie is not given the power to draft a 7th round grade prospect in the 1st round so I think the scouts have not been helping either with their grades on players.

They say they are into analytics.  Well they should be analyzing the scouting process and figuring out how to improve that as well.  They should have kept Howie as a Joe Banner type role over contracts, cap and negotiations but not picking players.  

Lurie is aware of the criticism, he doesn't even defend the drafting anymore he makes excuses like other teams took better players before them, or it's a collaboration.  There have been games where the announcers called out Howie's drafting and they put up graphics showing the poor drafting and lack of all pro talent.  Lurie gets the questions every year from reporters.  If there are scouts who feel Howie isn't making the best selections they can speak to that in house.  If a scout is worried he might lose his job but he thinks he's doing a good job and Howie's the problem, that will surface.

22 minutes ago, NOTW said:

You're contradicting yourself a little.  Earlier you said the value is in this year's pick and teams want picks now, not future (less value).  Now you're saying it's a good thing to trade back for future picks.  Your distinction is waiting to do it on draft day to see who's there.

Well, what if you're on draft day and people don't want to trade with you?  Howie also doesn't want to pay contracts to 3 different 1st rounders and wanted to secure future picks.  He probably talked to various teams and felt this was the best deal, and now he doesn't have to worry about it heading into the draft.  He's got future picks in 2 future years plus he may not be done yet.

He's also positioned with both 1st round picks selecting prior to the Saints two picks, so perhaps they discussed and aren't going after the same players, or he can still "win" over them by not worrying about trading with them only to have them take players he was interested in.  Some different angles to it.

I don’t think I’m contradicting myself. First, I don’t think they got enough value for the picks. Second, if you really want to trade one of the picks, why not wait until draft day? No reason to trade them now unless you get blown away with an offer. 

8 hours ago, EagleJoe8 said:

They still have two firsts this year. 

I know. This draft, they basically traded a pick away, all the way down to the third to pick up a 1st and 2nd over the next two seasons. Very forward thinking, but it’s not like we’re any good at drafting in those rounds anyways lol. 

10 minutes ago, Road to Victory said:

I don’t think I’m contradicting myself. First, I don’t think they got enough value for the picks. Second, if you really want to trade one of the picks, why not wait until draft day? No reason to trade them now unless you get blown away with an offer. 

Well he was blown away by the offer...

36 minutes ago, NOTW said:

Well, what if you're on draft day and people don't want to trade with you?  Howie also doesn't want to pay contracts to 3 different 1st rounders and wanted to secure future picks.  He probably talked to various teams and felt this was the best deal, and now he doesn't have to worry about it heading into the draft.  He's got future picks in 2 future years plus he may not be done yet.

 

40 minutes ago, philafan4o8 said:

So every bad pick is Howie not following the board? hmmm doubt that. We know it has happened but clearly the draft boards are crap anyways for having some of these players close in rating

Howie’s responsible for making all the picks good and bad. He’s the voice in the room who mostly breaks any ties. He’s absolutely the one who decides to trade up to get a guy, trade down to gamble and see if that guy falls to him still of to stand pat and wait. Howie is the GM and this whole selective stuff is nonsense, because Howie tells the scouts where to look and ultimately he makes the pick. Such a strange line of defense. It’s not Howie’s fault cause he didn’t actually scout the player??? Makes no sense. For the record Howie does go to the combine, senior bowl, private workouts, private interviews, and pro days so this idea he has no clue is ridiculous. 

Well hopefully Hurts balls out next year and the Saints totally suck and we get a top 5 pick that we can in turn trade into 2 additional 1st round picks and maybe another 2nd round pick. Not likely but an ideal scenario. Then again a lot of picks don't always translate to success. Seems like the Browns had a zillion top picks from trades and crap record over the past decade and now have gone from collecting picks to trading top ones because they couldn't draft well. Howie needs a 2021 like draft rather than a 2020 draft. 

I will add with so many teams having multiple first round picks doing this trade early may be the right call. It's not like other teams aren't going to look to trade one of their extra firsts this year.

30 minutes ago, Road to Victory said:

I don’t think I’m contradicting myself. First, I don’t think they got enough value for the picks. Second, if you really want to trade one of the picks, why not wait until draft day? No reason to trade them now unless you get blown away with an offer. 

You strike while the iron is hot.  Howie passes on the trade offer, New Orleans takes that trade elsewhere and now you are in a position where you wanna make a trade and the offers aren't even as good as what you turned down.  You're assuming better trade offers will be made, like others assume first round draft picks equal guaranteed long term talent.

I don't know what kind of work you do, but Howie's got a history of making great trades.  Drafting players...not so much.

Waiting until draft day doesn't guarantee you a better deal.  They know he's gonna wanna trade one of those picks, by then, the offers could all be lowballers.

2 minutes ago, NOTW said:

Well he was blown away by the offer...

 

I think everyone was blown away.

Haven't seen or heard any expert say it was a bad deal for the Eagles.

 

 

 

6 hours ago, D-Shiznit said:

Slightly inaccurate. For one thing, Pryor's name is spelled wrong. Secondly, I believe the Eagles also sent a 7th to the Colts in that deal. That isn't indicated here.

23 minutes ago, EazyEaglez said:

Howie’s responsible for making all the picks good and bad. He’s the voice in the room who mostly breaks any ties. He’s absolutely the one who decides to trade up to get a guy, trade down to gamble and see if that guy falls to him still of to stand pat and wait. Howie is the GM and this whole selective stuff is nonsense, because Howie tells the scouts where to look and ultimately he makes the pick. Such a strange line of defense. It’s not Howie’s fault cause he didn’t actually scout the player??? Makes no sense. For the record Howie does go to the combine, senior bowl, private workouts, private interviews, and pro days so this idea he has no clue is ridiculous. 

Lol its funny how defensive you get. I am simply having a conversation and you clearly cannot see what is being said. How many times do I need to say Howie sucks? But my question is what about the scouts. The fact that Reagor and Jefferson were so close in rating and Howie decided Reagor is a problem with both GM and scouting department. No one is here to defend that loser. Its ok to read between the lines sometimes

1 hour ago, Road to Victory said:

The Saints are not a bad team by any stretch so don’t count your chickens. They’re just missing a QB and they probably made this move to get some ammo for Pickett. I’m not of the belief the Saints will be bad next year. I think they’re middle of the road, anywhere from 8-10 wins. They have a good OL, quality defense, great RB and if Thomas comes back healthy, a great WR. 

The defense is still good despite losing Williams but without Armstead the O-Line is suddenly very average.  Payton milked them to a decent record but I just don't see how they score enough points to win more than 5-6 games.  They drew the NFC West and AFC North this year...yikes.

49 minutes ago, NOTW said:

They say they are into analytics.  Well they should be analyzing the scouting process and figuring out how to improve that as well.  They should have kept Howie as a Joe Banner type role over contracts, cap and negotiations but not picking players.  

Lurie is aware of the criticism, he doesn't even defend the drafting anymore he makes excuses like other teams took better players before them, or it's a collaboration.  There have been games where the announcers called out Howie's drafting and they put up graphics showing the poor drafting and lack of all pro talent.  Lurie gets the questions every year from reporters.  If there are scouts who feel Howie isn't making the best selections they can speak to that in house.  If a scout is worried he might lose his job but he thinks he's doing a good job and Howie's the problem, that will surface.

Fair enough! I do complete agree and I think everyone on this board that Howie should be in a Joe banner type role. Drafting should be handed off asap but also Lurie should be careful of making recommendations that swing the draft influence (ie. Whiteside). He pays these people to make the decision, he should trust them to make the best decision

1 hour ago, Vee said:

You strike while the iron is hot.  Howie passes on the trade offer, New Orleans takes that trade elsewhere and now you are in a position where you wanna make a trade and the offers aren't even as good as what you turned down.  You're assuming better trade offers will be made, like others assume first round draft picks equal guaranteed long term talent.

I don't know what kind of work you do, but Howie's got a history of making great trades.  Drafting players...not so much.

Waiting until draft day doesn't guarantee you a better deal.  They know he's gonna wanna trade one of those picks, by then, the offers could all be lowballers.

So what if the board doesn’t fall like Howie thinks and some players start falling?  Maybe 3 players that could really help the team next year. Now, you’ve limited your options. Besides, the deal  he made is not a once in a lifetime deal. They basically picked up a 3rd this year and a 2nd in two years to swap this year’s 1st for next. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

1 hour ago, dawkins4prez said:

The defense is still good despite losing Williams but without Armstead the O-Line is suddenly very average.  Payton milked them to a decent record but I just don't see how they score enough points to win more than 5-6 games.  They drew the NFC West and AFC North this year...yikes.

Everyone thought the Miami pick would be a Top 5 pick and look what happened there.

1 hour ago, philafan4o8 said:

Lol its funny how defensive you get. I am simply having a conversation and you clearly cannot see what is being said. How many times do I need to say Howie sucks? But my question is what about the scouts. The fact that Reagor and Jefferson were so close in rating and Howie decided Reagor is a problem with both GM and scouting department. No one is here to defend that loser. Its ok to read between the lines sometimes

Howie hired the scouting department so they’re doing what the GM wants. It all comes back to Howie. A blind man can see that. 

1 hour ago, philafan4o8 said:

Lol its funny how defensive you get. I am simply having a conversation and you clearly cannot see what is being said. How many times do I need to say Howie sucks? But my question is what about the scouts. The fact that Reagor and Jefferson were so close in rating and Howie decided Reagor is a problem with both GM and scouting department. No one is here to defend that loser. Its ok to read between the lines sometimes

Are the scouts giving him bad information or is their info solid and Howie is going rogue and taking players he has ranked higher on his board (as has been rumored)?  Have to think we’ll never know.  

36 minutes ago, Road to Victory said:

So what if the board doesn’t fall like Howie thinks and some players start falling?  Maybe 3 players that could really help the team next year. Now, you’ve limited your options. Besides, the deal  he made is not a once in a lifetime deal. They basically picked up a 3rd this year and a 2nd in two years to swap this year’s 1st for next. 

He was never going to draft 3 players so stop with that.  He even said so in his recent press conference at the annual league meetings.  He said he liked the trades last year to get future picks and made it sound like he was looking to do that again.  So drafting 3 players was never going to happen.  Everyone knew he was looking to trade back.

You can argue the value he got in return, but everyone knew he was going to trade one of those back.

1 hour ago, Road to Victory said:

So what if the board doesn’t fall like Howie thinks and some players start falling?  Maybe 3 players that could really help the team next year. Now, you’ve limited your options. Besides, the deal  he made is not a once in a lifetime deal. They basically picked up a 3rd this year and a 2nd in two years to swap this year’s 1st for next. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

It's all about money,  3 first round guaranteed contracts is a little harder to manage than 2. This trade changes alot in future team salaries and room to resign players.

1 hour ago, Road to Victory said:

So what if the board doesn’t fall like Howie thinks and some players start falling?  Maybe 3 players that could really help the team next year. Now, you’ve limited your options. Besides, the deal  he made is not a once in a lifetime deal. They basically picked up a 3rd this year and a 2nd in two years to swap this year’s 1st for next. 

Options get limited either way.  Either the players don't fall the way you thought, or you're not able to cut the deal you wanted to cut.

I don't think a 19 or 16 would ever warrant a "once-in-a-lifetime" trade offer from anyone.  You gotta have a single digit number for that....usually in the top 5.  If that's what you think he should have been waiting for, then....I don't really know what to tell you.    Using your math, had they given the Eagles a 1 in 2024 as well as 2023 it would have still been short by a mile.

If this team was further along than they are, I might have agreed with you in that light, but this is a rebuild...if you can draft well and sustain multiple high round picks year after year after year, that seems like a better way to sustain something special.  Shooting your wad all in one year seems like a way to build something short and fast.

The nice thing is that we'll see how the draft board falls....we'll see if there would have been someone that Eagles could have, should have pounced on, but ran out of draft capital to do so.  The Saints, of all teams, should be the beneficiary of that!

50 minutes ago, time2rock said:

Are the scouts giving him bad information or is their info solid and Howie is going rogue and taking players he has ranked higher on his board (as has been rumored)?  Have to think we’ll never know.  

Ultimately Howie is the one making the choices regardless of what the scouting department says. Their job is to report information on players they’re told to scout. The NFL.com scouting reports have Reagor and Jefferson rated 6.36 and 6.46 respectively so there isn’t a big notion that Howie reached here, but the reason why the went for Reagor was due to the fact the liked his speed. That year all of their wide receivers drafted were speed guys. They wanted to get faster and they didn’t see that in Jefferson. They made a mistake, but this idea that the scouts fed Howie bad information is utter nonsense. 

Howie’ she most recent draft appears to be pretty good. Why are people still harping on 2019?