I don't mean this to be a constant attack on Mahomes but his recent SB play fits as an example.

Watch the 2021 and 2022 SBs. He makes some great plays with his legs. Full credit for that. What he has to do passing is not epic in those games. He hits lots of screens and 7 yards to Kelce and so on. The 49ers game in 2023 turned on a punt that hit a 49er leg and the Chiefs got an 8 yard TD drive. It was a nice throw but it was about 12 yards and over the head of a shallow zone defender with JuJu getting well behind him. Its not exactly Big ben hitting Santonio. The 49ers missed an extra point earlier so KC did not have to go for 2 on that TD.

The OT was just awful playcalling for SF on D. They played this medium shell and all Mahomes did was throw to open guys underneath. He made the right reads, but they were not difficult reads or throws. Yes, he had the amazing run to get them to the 10 or so. If you want to talk about an 'anyone mobile can do this passing system' take a look at Andy Reid first.

He gets credit for the 5 SBs and the 3 wins and because of how he played 2018-2022 or so, he's also in that top 5 all-time conversation on merit. Watch the 2022 Super Bowl. Is it hard to throw to a wide open uncovered WR at the line of scrimmage for 2 TDs? You can't kill Gannon for making it too easy for Mahomes and then say it was not too easy for Mahomes. Hurts had 374 yards of offense in that game and it could have been much more with the deep ball to Watkins dropped in his hands and the deep DeVonta helmet catch with the 'lets take a catch away because we missed one in the NFCCG"

Intended Air Yard per pass in SB LVII

• Hurts 10.6 (404 total)
• Mahomes 6.2 (167 total)

 

So rate the guys you think are the best. Use your own criteria. Don't put player X first because the TV says he should be first. Don't give Allen credit for MVP over Lamar because the voters got cute after making Lamar a clear 1st team all-pro. Don't buy some bogus narrative that what Hurts does is easier than what other QBs have to do.

I have him 3 behind Burrow and Mahomes.Only because of the SB. I would love to see this team with Joe Burrow  as  QB. Burrow with these weapons and line in front of him?

17 hours ago, ManchesterEagle said:

i’d have him at 5, behind Mahomes, Allen, Burrow and Jackson.

I'm not big on 'rankings' like that. Same with Power Rankings, they're basically meaningless when it comes down to it. In 2024, when all was said and done, Jalen Hurts was the best QB in the league because he was the one hoisting the Lombardi. Last year, it was Mahomes, the year before that too. Allen, Jackson and Burrow have never hoisted one and may or may not ever hoist one, we'll see.

But to me, that's really all that matters. 

The eye test tells me that Allen and Jackson are better than Hurts, but the three of them play the game in an extremely similar manner -- lots of QB runs and scrambles mixed in with the passing -- and I cannot get past the fact that Allen and Jackson have 14 seasons between them and not a single Super Bowl appearance, while Hurts in just 5 seasons has a convincing Super Bowl win and another terrific performance in a Super Bowl loss.  Heck, Jalen had more playoff wins just this year alone than Lamar has had in his entire seven year career.

3 hours ago, SkippyX said:

That is fair. I look at it like Randall and the 1998 Super Bowl. He did enough to win the game on the field and a kicker shanked it.

I've been hard on Lamar over the playoffs but he was good vs Buffalo. He was not mistake free but Andrews drops 2 balls in his hands.

I never docked Allen for losing a shootout to Mahomes but if you want Lamar at 3 or 5 instead of 1, I get that.

 

I don't think I would trade any of these guys for any other of these guys. They are all really good with their teams and systems and teammates. I would not be surprised if I have a completely different order next offseason.

 

No I get that and it can’t all be on Lamar… But at the same time he does keep falling short. And in some of those big spots he’s not performed. He is an exceptional regular season QB but I just think for whatever reason he falls short. At this point in his career I’d be surprised if he ever wins a SB.

I sometimes think that Hurts doesn't get enough credit for his mentality. He can pass, he can run, he can read defenses, he can make quick decisions. But the real difference I see with him is what's between his ears. He has the mindset of a winner. Never gets too high or too low. Always focuses on the next play. As he would say, he keeps the main thing the main thing. That's why I now think he is in the very top tier. Rankings will always be subjective, since there is no real objective way to rank individuals in this ultimate of team sports. But he is right up there.

1 hour ago, kiwinavega said:

I sometimes think that Hurts doesn't get enough credit for his mentality. He can pass, he can run, he can read defenses, he can make quick decisions. But the real difference I see with him is what's between his ears. He has the mindset of a winner. Never gets too high or too low. Always focuses on the next play. As he would say, he keeps the main thing the main thing. That's why I now think he is in the very top tier. Rankings will always be subjective, since there is no real objective way to rank individuals in this ultimate of team sports. But he is right up there.

I think that is why he strives here.

I know people like to say that if they put X qb here, they would do as well or even better. I disagree with that. Most of these QBs are divas that need to be loved by the fanbase, and any kind of critical feedback hurts their ego. Allen and Burrow would crumble here. Mahomes may be able to make it, but he has had a fanbase that has loved him since day one. This year was the only year he faced a ton of backlash because of the refs, but that seemed to be more of a team thing. Yes, he was in the middle of it, and yes, he was called out, but it was still more about the Chiefs as a team than a Mahomes thing. We shall see how he bounces back over the next couple of years.

Hurts has been completely dismissed, crapped on, kicked in the balls, and everything else, yet he continues to produce. I can't see any of these other QBs being able to do the same thing.

5 hours ago, BayAreaLennie said:

The eye test tells me that Allen and Jackson are better than Hurts, but the three of them play the game in an extremely similar manner -- lots of QB runs and scrambles mixed in with the passing -- and I cannot get past the fact that Allen and Jackson have 14 seasons between them and not a single Super Bowl appearance, while Hurts in just 5 seasons has a convincing Super Bowl win and another terrific performance in a Super Bowl loss.  Heck, Jalen had more playoff wins just this year alone than Lamar has had in his entire seven year career.

The thing for me is that in football it's not ALL about the QB even though the narrative makes it seem so. If Allen or Jackson had Jalen's supporting cast do you think they might have made it to the big dance? Or if Jalen were QB1 for the Saints or Jags would he be as successful? It's not my intent to cast shade on Jalen but football is a TEAM sport. Plus Hurts hasn't been playing in the stronger conference the past few years like Allen and Jackson have.

22 hours ago, ManchesterEagle said:

I’m strongly of the view that it’s whoever help their team the most. Whether that’s passing, running, not turning it over or being clutch.

That sounds more like MVP, IMO. For me, QB rankings should be based on how well they play the position within the confines of their offense. It starts with leadership. The QB needs to be the central leader of the team and he needs to have everybody onboard and keep them engaged. Then it's command of the offense --- Does the QB do everything efficiently? Does he figure out what is most effective and make sure that is what we are doing? Is he able to execute what needs to be done, making the plays with his arm or his legs if need be? 

Now we get into the elements of his game. As a passer, does he understand what the defense is doing? Can he make the correct read? Can he make all the throws, throw accurately, use touch, fit passes in tight windows, etc... ? Does he trust his receivers to make the plays? Does he protect the ball? Is he patient?

As a runner, does he make key plays with his feet? Does he extend plays/drives? Does he protect the ball? Does he force defenses to utilize a spy or have to "choose a poison" conceptually?

Finally, as a player --- Does he win? Is he helping the team win? Does he have the respect and trust of teammates and the respect of peers around the league?

 

So when I apply the criteria to Jalen Hurts, he's definitely right up there with the top QBs in the league for sure. There may be a few that are better at some elements. Jalen isn't the best at everything. But he may be the most complete in regard to the total package. He was by far the best QB in the Super Bowl and his counterpart is widely considered the best current QB in the league. 

Bonus note:

Jalen surprised me once again this season. It seemed that in his 1st 4 seasons that the farthest he could throw was about 55 yards. I figured that was his limit. Then he put up this beauty: (59.3 air yards according to NGS --- right on the money)

 

4 hours ago, eglz1 said:

The thing for me is that in football it's not ALL about the QB even though the narrative makes it seem so. If Allen or Jackson had Jalen's supporting cast do you think they might have made it to the big dance? Or if Jalen were QB1 for the Saints or Jags would he be as successful? It's not my intent to cast shade on Jalen but football is a TEAM sport. Plus Hurts hasn't been playing in the stronger conference the past few years like Allen and Jackson have.

I do not really disagree with you on the overall point that it is a team sport and the QB gets too much credit and blame for wins and losses.

But I feel like Allen and Jackson kind of have had Jalen's supporting cast during their tenures - the Ravens and Bills have been among the favorites to make it to and win the Super Bowl pretty much every year.

Both have had consistently excellent defenses.  Both have had excellent running attacks -- e.g., this year Derrick Henry had 1921 yards rushing, not far behind Saquon, and James Cook was very good, especially in the playoffs (336 total yds, 5.1 ypc and 3 TDs in 3 games).  Both have had plenty of great targets over the years (Stefon Diggs was All-Pro twice and a Pro Bowler four times for the Bills, and Mark Andrews has been a consistent Pro Bowler and Zay Flowers made the Pro Bowl this year for the Ravens).

Perhaps your best point is that both teams have had Patrick Mahomes and the Chiefs in their way in the AFC.  But Jalen and the Eagles proved this year that is not insurmountable.  I believe both the Bills and Ravens were better teams than the Chiefs this year.  When that is the case, at some point, the QB has to step up in the playoffs and lead the team to victory.  Both Lamar and Allen failed at that this year.

I also believe that Jalen would be successful on the Saints and Jags -- maybe not Super Bowl win successful, but successful.  Between his tush push excellence, ability to scramble and very good throwing ability, Jalen is an elite first-down maker.  Absolutely elite.  That would translate to any team he played for.

That said, like I said to begin with, the eye test for me still puts Jackson and Allen ahead of Jalen.  But not by much, and if Jalen continues to lead the team to playoff success, at some point I may have to recognize that in my personal rankings.

One of the best things about sports is you can have these conversations endlessly. (maybe also one of the bad things?)

The venomous and ignorant media narrative this year was that Hurts was somehow not a real QB or he had training wheels or he was not doing his part.

Obviously it was all garbage. Derrick Gunn got destroyed by Seth Joyner for parroting this pathetic cold take in like week 16 or so.

 

Rank him 1, 4, 5, 7, or 9... I am thrilled that he is our QB and will be for the foreseeable future.

14 hours ago, eagle45 said:

Everyone needs to acknowledge that Hurts is just different.  I acknowledge I’ve been wrong about him twice though.

This generation of QBs just isn’t as good as the last one.  Less sustained dominance, precession, greatness.  Less reliable passing (regardless of what qb ratings may say).  Josh Allen, reigning MVP and QB, is exhibit A of this.

If we could draw a parallel of edge rushers…I see Hurts as a steady top flight, versatile 3-4 guy who can do many things but isn’t an elite pure pass rusher.  Other guys are more explosive pure rushers who are racking up better sack numbers and wrecking game plans and matchups more.  But he is plugging as an indefensible and versatile piece as a critical position in the system.

You know he plays better in bigger games and won’t choke.  

Thats a convoluted way of saying I think there is still a surprisingly long list of better passers in this league and a surprisingly short list of better QBs.  Which…until recently, I’d have argued there just isn’t much of a different between the two. But hurts and the eagles proved otherwise.

 

Well said.  I no longer get into "ranking" QBs.  It's too subjective of a topic.  I feel highly confident in his ability to bring his A game when it matters most.  

@D.WATSfromda757what are you confused about?

3 hours ago, Mike030270 said:

@D.WATSfromda757what are you confused about?

I wasn’t. You can place people where you want. But you said you place those dudes ahead of Hurts strictly off of the qb, not the team ..then claim Herbert’s team and coach hold him back. I just call bullish. Hurts plays way better than them when they’re on the other side of the field. Herbert not even in the conversation and neither is Stafford to me. Lamar is exciting and LOOKS the part. Both teams were pretty evenly matched…Hurts took the lead for his team at the end of the second qtr with his legs and arm. Don’t see how I’d place him or Burrow above Hurts other than someone’s personal preference of style points or some bullsht like "eye test” nonsense. Sam Darnold was passing everyone’s eye test on the Vikings too..then the playoffs happened. Mahomes? Yeah he has the most wins and Super Bowls I can respect that until Hurts wins another and continues to beat KC in regular season matchups. I think they’re tied overall in face to face matchups. Josh Allen? People will like what they like. Still don’t think he’s "better” than Hurts. As much as people talk about not being able to read defenses and sniff out blitzes. Another guy that had an evenly matched team and a chance to win in OT vs The Eagles and Hurts, but didn’t. Hurts did. Overwhelming theme with Hurts vs these other guys.

2 minutes ago, D.WATSfromda757 said:

I wasn’t. You can place people where you want. But you said you place those dudes ahead of Hurts strictly off of the qb, not the team ..then claim Herbert’s team and coach hold him back. I just call bullish. Hurts plays way better than them when they’re on the other side of the field. Herbert not even in the conversation and neither is Stafford to me. Lamar is exciting and LOOKS the part. Both teams were pretty evenly matched…Hurts took the lead for his team at the end of the second qtr with his legs and arm. Don’t see how I’d place him or Burrow above Hurts other someone’s personal preference of style points or some bullsht like "eye test” nonsense. Sam Darnold was passing everyone’s eye test on the Vikings too..then the playoffs happened. Mahomes? Yeah he has the most wins and Super Bowls I can respect that until Hurts wins another and continues to beat KC in regular season matchups. I think they’re tied overall in face to face matchups. Josh Allen? People will like what they like. Still don’t think he’s "better” than Hurts. As much as people talk about not being able to read defenses and sniff out blitzes.

Because someone replied to me saying they can't get behind him. So I posted his stats.

Hurts is on a stacked team that many of those QBs wish they had

3 minutes ago, Mike030270 said:

Because someone replied to me saying they can't get behind him. So I posted his stats.

Hurts is on a stacked team that many of those QBs wish they had

I don’t subscribe to "stacked team” loser mentality 

2 minutes ago, D.WATSfromda757 said:

I don’t subscribe to "stacked team” loser mentality 

That makes no sense. Hurts literally has a stacked roster. Look at his weapons. Look at his Oline. Look at the defense he has that will get the ball back quickly

12 minutes ago, Mike030270 said:

That makes no sense. Hurts literally has a stacked roster. Look at his weapons. Look at his Oline. Look at the defense he has that will get the ball back quickly

They’re just a well built team…that’s how you BUILD a TEAM with good players or HOPEFULLY good players, and good coaches who can Coach. No one was lining up to get half the players on the defense. AJ was not a top ten wr in Tennessee. And Smitty was ranked #23 and looked at as a risk even his rookie year. Stop with the "Hurts has” a stacked roster nonsense. Like he’s some make a wish qb. Look at his weapons? What is he supposed to keep playing with Reagor and Whiteside while trying to compete against everybody else’s weapons? That’s dumb as hell…nobody says the Buccs were stacked..they say Hurts lost to "the goat”….they didn’t care about no weapons when he didn’t have any. The oline wasn’t ranked #1 when he was named starter. All this sht came together…and was built around him each step they found out "weaknesses” in the team. The Jets, Packers, Seahawks, Vikings, Lions, Chiefs, Rams, Texans, Ravens and few others are stacked too if that’s the case…it’s about chemistry or whatever intangible thing they’re missing as to why they don’t win. 

 Nice way of dancing around the fact that Hurts is on a stacked roster

4 minutes ago, Mike030270 said:

 Nice way of dancing around the fact that Hurts is on a stacked roster

If that’s the case, then what good team isn’t? Definitely not the people you act like are better… Hurts "stacked roster” being the reason he beats them and their stacked roster.

7 minutes ago, D.WATSfromda757 said:

it’s about chemistry or whatever intangible thing they’re missing as to why they don’t win. 

That's a lot of it I think. How else to explain Zach Baun for one, plus the coach(es) knowing how to best use their players.

I'm not listing bad teams to prove the Eagles have a ton of talent. That's idiotic

I'm guessing you feel it's somehow a slight by saying Hurts is on a stacked roster. Weird thing to think but you're sensitive of him so I guess it makes sense. I said Hurts was around 7th and you took offense to that as well

You won't be happy unless I say Hurts is a top 3? I just don't think he is. So I guess that ends that 🤷‍♂️

1 hour ago, eglz1 said:

That's a lot of it I think. How else to explain Zach Baun for one, plus the coach(es) knowing how to best use their players.

Exactly. He didn’t come out of some "stacked roster all pro shop” smh. Burks too. Glad he got signed. 

Smh. Stacked roster vs stacked roster…Hurts wins against someone you claim is better…your answer is only Hurts has a stacked roster. You say what you want. Lust over who you want. 

You're back to the homophobia? I'm beginning to think you're in the closet. Good luck with that

Mahomes is better than Hurts. If you think Hurts is better than him... we have nothing to discuss and I suggest you put me on ignore