2 hours ago, DrPhilly said:

So can they withdrawal the pro-bono work they were forced into?

15 minutes ago, JohnSnowsHair said:

So can they withdrawal the pro-bono work they were forced into?

Perkins Coie was one of the firms that decided to fight instead of bending the knee so they have no agreement to worry about.

Oh my, the judge in Wisconsin had the suspect go out the jury door into the same main hallway where ICE was waiting in order to avoid the mayhem in her courtroom and its main entrance. That's not obstruction. The case will get dropped and meanwhile we have both Patel and Bondi out in public yelling about this "guilty radical judge" despite the clear violation of ethics and DOJ/FBI policy.

It was important to wait until the details came out before forming an opinion and now here we are with the Trump WH yet again essentially pushing a flimsy legal theory to try to intimidate people.

On 5/4/2025 at 5:37 AM, DrPhilly said:

Oh my, the judge in Wisconsin had the suspect go out the jury door into the same main hallway where ICE was waiting in order to avoid the mayhem in her courtroom and its main entrance. That's not obstruction. The case will get dropped and meanwhile we have both Patel and Bondi out in public yelling about this "guilty radical judge" despite the clear violation of ethics and DOJ/FBI policy.

It was important to wait until the details came out before forming an opinion and now here we are with the Trump WH yet again essentially pushing a flimsy legal theory to try to intimidate people.

Meh I don't know, that's going to be a very hard sell. She sent the ICE agent and CBP agent away to go meet with the chief judge, claiming that their warrant wasn't valid to arrest Ruiz in the hallway (it was a valid warrant). She then had Ruiz exit the court through the jury door, she didn't even call his case that morning. Yes Ruiz did ultimately enter the public hallway, but at a different location and heading to a different elevator bank than agents were expecting since they were expecting him to come out the main entrance. She didn't coordinate this with the agents. It's not like she went to them and said, "hey, to avoid a big commotion outside the main entrance, I'm going to have him leave through the jury door which will put him further down the hall when he exits the court, so you can arrest him there". In fact, all of this took place while the ICE agent and CBP agent were still talking with the Chief Judge.

It certainly looks like she took steps to help Ruiz evade arrest. She'll have her day in court to justify her actions and explain the logic in doing what she did, but it doesn't look good for her.

1 hour ago, Phillyterp85 said:

Meh I don't know, that's going to be a very hard sell. She sent the ICE agent and CBP agent away to go meet with the chief judge, claiming that their warrant wasn't valid to arrest Ruiz in the hallway (it was a valid warrant). She then had Ruiz exit the court through the jury door, she didn't even call his case that morning. Yes Ruiz did ultimately enter the public hallway, but at a different location and heading to a different elevator bank than agents were expecting since they were expecting him to come out the main entrance. She didn't coordinate this with the agents. It's not like she went to them and said, "hey, to avoid a big commotion outside the main entrance, I'm going to have him leave through the jury door which will put him further down the hall when he exits the court, so you can arrest him there". In fact, all of this took place while the ICE agent and CBP agent were still talking with the Chief Judge.

It certainly looks like she took steps to help Ruiz evade arrest. She'll have her day in court to justify her actions and explain the logic in doing what she did, but it doesn't look good for her.

Meh, she exited him via the jury door which went right into the hall where the ICE agents were waiting. Claiming it was a "different door" is a pretty flimsy obstruction argument ihmo. She isn't obliged to hand the guy directly to them or to actively help the ICE agents.

I can see people arguing that she should work together with ICE but I'm not seeing anything illegal given what we've been told thru the media.

9 minutes ago, DrPhilly said:

Meh, she exited him via the jury door which went right into the hall where the ICE agents were waiting. Claiming it was a "different door" is a pretty flimsy obstruction argument ihmo. She isn't obliged to hand the guy to them or to help the ICE agents.

I can see people arguing that she should work together with ICE but I'm not seeing anything illegal given what we've been told thru the media.

Again, she sent the two agents see saw away, didn't call his case, and then had him exit the courtroom through the jury door which put him in a different location than the remaining agents were expecting. It certainly looks like she was helping him evade arrest. Otherwise, why not call his case? Why have him exit out a door that no one except the jury goes through? If she didn't realize that federal agents were there waiting to arrest Ruiz, would she have done all those things? I do not think so.

2 minutes ago, Phillyterp85 said:

Again, she sent the two agents see saw away, didn't call his case, and then had him exit the courtroom through the jury door which put him in a different location than the remaining agents were expecting. It certainly looks like she was helping him evade arrest. Otherwise, why not call his case? Why have him exit out a door that no one except the jury goes through? If she didn't realize that federal agents were there waiting to arrest Ruiz, would she have done all those things? I do not think so.

What of any of those items constitutes obstruction? Sending the agents away certainly does not. Sending him out another door can easily be explained as her not wanting to created a big scene directly in front of the main door to her courtroom. Again, I can understand someone making an argument that she should be actively helping ICE but she has no obligation to do so.

There is going to be a case made in detail so we shall soon find out what the courts think.

30 minutes ago, DrPhilly said:

What of any of those items constitutes obstruction? Sending the agents away certainly does not. Sending him out another door can easily be explained as her not wanting to created a big scene directly in front of the main door to her courtroom. Again, I can understand someone making an argument that she should be actively helping ICE but she has no obligation to do so.

There is going to be a case made in detail so we shall soon find out what the courts think.

If she took the actions she did to help Ruiz evade arrest, then yes that would be obstruction. Obviously it's up to the government to prove their case, but there's certainly evidence there. Sending the agents away, adjourning his case, and then having him exit the courtroom through the jury door so that he'd be able to get to another elevator bank from where the remaining agents were waiting. Ruiz was about to exit the main courtroom doors, and then Dugan called him over and had him exit through the jury door.

Why did she adjourn his case? The state attorney for the case as well as the victims were there in the courtroom as scheduled and were not informed by Judge Dugan that she was adjourning the case to be scheduled at a later date.

What it looks like, is that Dugan was informed of Ruiz's impending arrest, which was going to happen after his case was over, and so to help him evade arrest, she sent the agents she could identify away, and then hurriedly adjourned his case, and had him leave out the jury door in hopes that he'd be able to make it out of the courthouse without being arrested.

"Again, I can understand someone making an argument that she should be actively helping ICE but she has no obligation to do so."

She doesn't have an obligation to actively help ICE, but she also can't take steps to help the suspect evade arrest. Simple question: If she didn't know that ICE agents were there to arrest Ruiz after his case, would she have adjourned his case and had him leave the courtroom through the jury door? It is not uncommon for officers to arrest someone at a courthouse who is there for a separate hearing. I would bet that the amount of times that a judge, upon learning that a defendant in their courtroom is going to be arrested after their hearing, decides to adjourn the hearing and escort the defendant out the jury door would be a big fat 0.

12 minutes ago, Phillyterp85 said:

If she took the actions she did to help Ruiz evade arrest, then yes that would be obstruction. Obviously it's up to the government to prove their case, but there's certainly evidence there. Sending the agents away, adjourning his case, and then having him exit the courtroom through the jury door so that he'd be able to get to another elevator bank from where the remaining agents were waiting. Ruiz was about to exit the main courtroom doors, and then Dugan called him over and had him exit through the jury door.

Why did she adjourn his case? The state attorney for the case as well as the victims were there in the courtroom as scheduled and were not informed by Judge Dugan that she was adjourning the case to be scheduled at a later date.

What it looks like, is that Dugan was informed of Ruiz's impending arrest, which was going to happen after his case was over, and so to help him evade arrest, she sent the agents she could identify away, and then hurriedly adjourned his case, and had him leave out the jury door in hopes that he'd be able to make it out of the courthouse without being arrested.

"Again, I can understand someone making an argument that she should be actively helping ICE but she has no obligation to do so."

She doesn't have an obligation to actively help ICE, but she also can't take steps to help the suspect evade arrest. Simple question: If she didn't know that ICE agents were there to arrest Ruiz after his case, would she have adjourned his case and had him leave the courtroom through the jury door? It is not uncommon for officers to arrest someone at a courthouse who is there for a separate hearing. I would bet that the amount of times that a judge, upon learning that a defendant in their courtroom is going to be arrested after their hearing, decides to adjourn the hearing and escort the defendant out the jury door would be a big fat 0.

I think you are reaching. Sending the agents away was due to a question of their search warrant and its jurisdiction in her court room. Requesting clarity on that point isn't obstructing. Adjourning his case or not is neither here nor there in terms of the ICE situation. If she had sent him out a door that led out into a back alley or something like that I'd buy that argument but the result was just putting them into the same public hallway as if they had walked out the main door. I find it hard to believe a court will see that as obstruction.

What is looks like to me is that the judge didn't like ICE coming into her court and asked them to get a clear ruling as to whether or not their administrative warrant gave them the power to make an arrest in the courthouse. She then decided to go ahead and simply push things forward and not make a spectacle out of her court. So she adjourned the case (to be held at another time) and sent the lawyer and suspect out the side door and into the main hall rather than thru the main entrance into that same public hall.

she's never going to be convicted by a jury in Wisconsin.

it's a waste of time and a ridiculous performative display.

1 hour ago, JohnSnowsHair said:

she's never going to be convicted by a jury in Wisconsin.

it's a waste of time and a ridiculous performative display.

You just described the entire Trump Presidency.

1 hour ago, vikas83 said:

You just described the entire Trump Presidency.

Man, I wish all it was was a waste of time and a ridiculous performative display.

He's doing real lasting damage.

4 hours ago, JohnSnowsHair said:

Man, I wish all it was was a waste of time and a ridiculous performative display.

He's doing real lasting damage.

Debate me.

Shirts vs. skins.

I call skins.

Winner gets the change in the ashtray of @vikas83 's Bentley [estimated USD $14.2k].

8 hours ago, JohnSnowsHair said:

Man, I wish all it was was a waste of time and a ridiculous performative display.

He's doing real lasting damage.

Yeah. But that’s just the ramifications of him doing a daily TV show for idiots. Starring an imbecile.

Miller is a real problem

edit: In case anyone wonders, the source of this text is Fox News

9 hours ago, DrPhilly said:

I think you are reaching. Sending the agents away was due to a question of their search warrant and its jurisdiction in her court room. Requesting clarity on that point isn't obstructing. Adjourning his case or not is neither here nor there in terms of the ICE situation. If she had sent him out a door that led out into a back alley or something like that I'd buy that argument but the result was just putting them into the same public hallway as if they had walked out the main door. I find it hard to believe a court will see that as obstruction.

What is looks like to me is that the judge didn't like ICE coming into her court and asked them to get a clear ruling as to whether or not their administrative warrant gave them the power to make an arrest in the courthouse. She then decided to go ahead and simply push things forward and not make a spectacle out of her court. So she adjourned the case (to be held at another time) and sent the lawyer and suspect out the side door and into the main hall rather than thru the main entrance into that same public hall.

Ok a simple question:

If Dugan had not been aware that there were ICE agents waiting to arrest Ruiz in the hallway after his case, would she have adjourned his case and sent him out the courtroom through the jury door?

2 hours ago, DrPhilly said:

Miller is a real problem

He’s such as a-****. And he has such a punchable face.

4 minutes ago, Phillyterp85 said:

If Dugan had not been aware that there were ICE agents waiting to arrest Ruiz in the hallway after his case, would she have adjourned his case and sent him out the courtroom through the jury door?

No she wouldn't. However, I don't see how you can jump from that to obstruction. She has every right to adjourn the case for whatever reason and even though she directed the suspect and his attorney to use an alternate door she still sent them directly into the main hall where ICE agents were waiting and took him into custody.

We've gone around on this one so not much more to add and I do understand your position though I believe it is a stretch from a legal perspective. The good news is we will get to find out once the courts get involved.

57 minutes ago, DrPhilly said:

No she wouldn't. However, I don't see how you can jump from that to obstruction. She has every right to adjourn the case for whatever reason and even though she directed the suspect and his attorney to use an alternate door she still sent them directly into the main hall where ICE agents were waiting and took him into custody.

We've gone around on this one so not much more to add and I do understand your position though I believe it is a stretch from a legal perspective. The good news is we will get to find out once the courts get involved.

But ICE agents were not waiting to take him into custody. She sent the agents away to talk to the chief judge and then adjourned Ruiz’s case and then hurried him out the courtroom while they were gone. However, there was another plain clothed officer in the hallway that Dugan did not realize was a member of the arresting team, so thankfully he wasn’t sent away as well. He followed Ruiz into the elevator, and then alerted the other agents of his whereabouts after he exited the elevator. He then tried to flee but the agents were able to pursue him on foot and catch him.

I don’t really think it’s much of a "jump” to get to obstruction. I think she took the actions that she did to help Ruiz evade arrest. That is obstruction.

And yes, we agree to disagree. We’ll see what happens in court.

Just now, Phillyterp85 said:

But ICE agents were not waiting to take him into custody. She sent the agents away to talk to the chief judge and then adjourned Ruiz’s case and then hurried him out the courtroom while they were gone. However, there was another plain clothed officer in the hallway that Dugan did not realize was a member of the arresting team, so thankfully he wasn’t sent away as well. He followed Ruiz into the elevator, and then alerted the other agents of his whereabouts after he exited the elevator. He then tried to flee but the agents were able to pursue him on foot and catch him.

I don’t really think it’s much of a "jump” to get to obstruction. I think she took the actions that she did to help Ruiz evade arrest. That is obstruction.

There are a few facts established here and one is that ICE agents were in the hallway. She probably had no idea whether there were agents still there or not. The agents she asked to go get clarification could have still been in the hallway for all she knew and of course there may have been others (which there were). Also, you do not know what she was thinking and her behavior can be plausibly explained in ways that do not align with your assertions. That's why I'm saying you are reaching from a legal perspective.

Again, I understand your point but I don't agree with you. We've gone around this three times now and nothing new is being established. Time to wait for the courts to tell us the answer.

To date all we've heard is the state's account. I don't believe the defendant has gone on record with her story, nor have other witnesses not tied to the state weighed in.

2 hours ago, JohnSnowsHair said:

To date all we've heard is the state's account. I don't believe the defendant has gone on record with her story, nor have other witnesses not tied to the state weighed in.

Of course, and she's innocent until proven guilty. The government will have to prove their case that she took the actions she did because she was helping Ruiz evade arrest.

America First Legal sues SCOTUS Chief Justice John Roberts | Fox News

On 3/21/2025 at 7:29 PM, The Norseman said:

What I'll remember is all of you having meltdowns if the Supreme Court upholds the AEA.  Something tells me you won't be as married to proper legal procedure then. 

But lets be honest, you'll all be off to the next Democrat talking point by then...this will be old news.  

On 3/22/2025 at 1:53 PM, The Norseman said:

Framing the legal argument before the courts is now a "MAGA talking point" 😂😂  

On 3/21/2025 at 7:11 PM, The Norseman said:

Alien Enemies Act does not require due process for deportation.  The constitution has nothing to do with this case.  It may, if the courts rule that the Alien Enemies Act cannot be used for these purposes, but they have not.  So, your outrage is premature at best.  

@The Norseman So here we are...

SCOTUS has ruled 9-0 that habeas corpus, i.e. "due process", still applies to all persons even under the AEA act.

Federal courts (several and with Republican appointed judges) have ruled that the invocation of the AEA was unconstitutional.

Stephen Miller has now warned of the need to go to Marshall Law should the courts not "do the right thing".

You've previously said you would accept court decisions. Are you ready to admit that isn't the case now OR are you ready to take a position that is counter to the Trump WH position?

It was all fun and games when they were raiding Trump's underwear drawer on national TV and investigating every single person who ever had any dealings with his administration.

But now we have an activist judge being held accountable and it's paragraphs of endless nonsense and tears.

On 5/6/2025 at 9:20 AM, JohnSnowsHair said:

To date all we've heard is the state's account. I don't believe the defendant has gone on record with her story, nor have other witnesses not tied to the state weighed in.

Lol breaking it down like you're reading a NCIS script won't help