Both Sides with Sam Harris

[DrPhilly]

 

[Dave Moss]

Some of that made sense, but other parts were rather silly.

[Eaglesfandan]

Ok the second part was a total reach....

[DrPhilly]

3 hours ago, Dave Moss said:

Some of that made sense, but other parts were rather silly.

[Dave Moss]

4 hours ago, DrPhilly said:

I generally agree with the idea that Trump doesn’t have a moral compass.  But when he tried to build on that to say Trump doesn’t think he’s superior...   he was joking, right?

[DrPhilly]

35 minutes ago, Dave Moss said:

I generally agree with the idea that Trump doesn’t have a moral compass.  But when he tried to build on that to say Trump doesn’t think he’s superior...   he was joking, right?

He is talking bout "moral superiority" and "human goodness".  Sam assert that since Trump doesn't value those items at all he can't compare them vs others or judge others.  I interpret Sam as meaning Trump thinks that if you care about those things then you are a loser and that being a good or moral or superior human being doesn't matter to Trump.  In other words, I think Sam is only talking about superiority in regard to "moral superiority".  That's how I interpret it anyway.

Good question.

[Dave Moss]

16 minutes ago, DrPhilly said:

He is talking bout "moral superiority" and "human goodness".  Sam assert that since Trump doesn't value those items at all he can't compare them vs others or judge others.  I interpret Sam as meaning Trump thinks that if you care about those things then you are a loser and that being a good or moral or superior human being doesn't matter to Trump.  In other words, I think Sam is only talking about superiority in regard to "moral superiority".  That's how I interpret it anyway.

Good question.

So you don’t think being pro-life (or nominating only pro-life judges) is a claim of moral superiority?

[Dave Moss]

I mean the pro-life crowd literally called themselves the Moral Majority.

[JohnSnowsHair]

4 minutes ago, Dave Moss said:

So you don’t think being pro-life (or nominating only pro-life judges) is a claim of moral superiority?

I think you could easily argue the Trump didn't look at those nominations in terms of moral superiority.

The argument being made is not a difficult one: Trump has no moral compass, and when he assesses someone's worth their morality does not play into that. That seems to be what Harris is contending: that because he has no sense of morality, he can't possibly judge someone for being immoral. It isn't part of his rubric when making a value judgement on another person.

The only trait he cares about is "what can they do for me?" This is the only reason he values "his" people at all - because their votes are nominally necessary in securing his hold on power. Beyond that, he does not care if they engage in immoral acts - he does not judge them on that scale. 

[Dave Moss]

4 minutes ago, JohnSnowsHair said:

I think you could easily argue the Trump didn't look at those nominations in terms of moral superiority.

The argument being made is not a difficult one: Trump has no moral compass, and when he assesses someone's worth their morality does not play into that. That seems to be what Harris is contending: that because he has no sense of morality, he can't possibly judge someone for being immoral. It isn't part of his rubric when making a value judgement on another person.

The only trait he cares about is "what can they do for me?" This is the only reason he values "his" people at all - because their votes are nominally necessary in securing his hold on power. Beyond that, he does not care if they engage in immoral acts - he does not judge them on that scale. 

So when he puts out a video and says his true supporters would never commit political violence is that not making a judgement about their morals?

[JohnSnowsHair]

1 minute ago, Dave Moss said:

So when he puts out a video and says his true supporters would never commit political violence is that not making a judgement about their morals?

I don't see why it would be? He's only making the video at the behest of his own lawyers telling him he needs to give himself some legally defensible distance from this thing. 

If he was actually making decisions on his own, I think he would have been cheering these idiots on publicly. 

[Dave Moss]

Just now, JohnSnowsHair said:

I don't see why it would be? He's only making the video at the behest of his own lawyers telling him he needs to give himself some legally defensible distance from this thing. 

If he was actually making decisions on his own, I think he would have been cheering these idiots on publicly. 

I do think his lust for power outweighs everything else.  But I also think having the religious right in your corner is an assertion of moral superiority.

[JohnSnowsHair]

as much as you guys seem to criticize DrPhilly for being stuck in this "both sides" lane, you guys now seem to be stuck in this lane where you MUST interpret everything DrPhilly posts as some effort to "both sides" and excuse Trump's behavior.

I don't think that's the right read. at least not on this post from Harris. 

what Harris is saying here is incredibly damning for Trump. yeah, I know he also goes after "woke" culture and so you guys interpret Harris's criticism there to be making some kind of argument for moral equivalence, but I don't see that in the least.

Harris probably would have been better off with a brief acknowledgement that woke culture has its own issues, but that the issue of the day - and an issue that is greater than the problems "woke" culture presents for society - is Trump and how his psychology has warped his followers and the office of the president.

[DrPhilly]

3 minutes ago, JohnSnowsHair said:

I don't see why it would be? He's only making the video at the behest of his own lawyers telling him he needs to give himself some legally defensible distance from this thing. 

If he was actually making decisions on his own, I think he would have been cheering these idiots on publicly. 

His only motivation is his own ego and power.  He literally has zero moral position whatsoever.  I've always thought that was the case and Sam takes that and runs with it.

[JohnSnowsHair]

1 minute ago, Dave Moss said:

I do think his lust for power outweighs everything else.  But I also think having the religious right in your corner is an assertion of moral superiority.

I think Trump would, of course, use the alleged moral superiority of the religious right as just another cudgel for the bully pulpit.

But I do not think that it reflects on his personal feelings on morality. Harris's assertion is that he doesn't have the ability to judge on moral grounds, because he doesn't see morality as important or valuable in and of itself.

Its only value is in directing the weight of the "moral majority" to do his bidding.

[DrPhilly]

1 minute ago, JohnSnowsHair said:

as much as you guys seem to criticize DrPhilly for being stuck in this "both sides" lane, you guys now seem to be stuck in this lane where you MUST interpret everything DrPhilly posts as some effort to "both sides" and excuse Trump's behavior.

I don't think that's the right read. at least not on this post from Harris. 

what Harris is saying here is incredibly damning for Trump. yeah, I know he also goes after "woke" culture and so you guys interpret Harris's criticism there to be making some kind of argument for moral equivalence, but I don't see that in the least.

Harris probably would have been better off with a brief acknowledgement that woke culture has its own issues, but that the issue of the day - and an issue that is greater than the problems "woke" culture presents for society - is Trump and how his psychology has warped his followers and the office of the president.

This, I don't think Sam is judging one "side" or the other side in comparison to each other.  Rather, he is pointing out the dual side of the landscape and how the combination drives the basic division.  In a nutshell, I think what Sam says is that the massive issue at the moment is the explosive landscape created by these two participating together in that landscape.

My personal opinion is that Trump is by far the bigger and more immediate and more  dangerous issue of the two.  Wokeness presents its own issues and while I don't think they are as problematic they do present long term challenges that are significant though not as significant as what the Trump side is bringing to the table (by quite a margin).

[DrPhilly]

8 minutes ago, JohnSnowsHair said:

I think Trump would, of course, use the alleged moral superiority of the religious right as just another cudgel for the bully pulpit.

But I do not think that it reflects on his personal feelings on morality. Harris's assertion is that he doesn't have the ability to judge on moral grounds, because he doesn't see morality as important or valuable in and of itself.

Its only value is in directing the weight of the "moral majority" to do his bidding.

Yes.  He does not belief in the things the religious right believes in.  He is simply using them as a tool to achieve what he wants to achieve, namely gain power and fame.

[Dave Moss]

19 minutes ago, DrPhilly said:

Yes.  He does not belief in the things the religious right believes in.  He is simply using them as a tool to achieve what he wants to achieve, namely gain power and fame.

I’m not sure he lives in reality though. I thought that deep-down he didn’t really believe he won the election.  After listening to the Georgia phone call though I changed my mind.  He really thinks he won.

So it’s not a leap to say he also might think he’s morally superior.  His side is full of good people, the other side is full of animals and thugs.

[Dave Moss]

Also, if you strongly believe in the moral superiority of Trump / Trumpism then you realize it wasn’t Trump supporters who raided the Capitol.  It was Antifa.

[VanHammersly]

That video was ridiculous.  It's Trumpism from the view of a conservative.  "Trump doesn't judge you." Um, yes he does.  Every other word out of his mouth is how someone's nasty or there are bad people that live in that liberal city, etc.  Trump doesn't judge conservatives.  And he allows them to enjoy hating liberals through his very public judgement of them.

[Toastrel]

Of course Trump BELIEVES he is superior in EVERY way.

Self-delusion is rampant in the USA.

[DrPhilly]

16 minutes ago, Dave Moss said:

I’m not sure he lives in reality though. I thought that deep-down he didn’t really believe he won the election.  After listening to the Georgia phone call though I changed my mind.  He really thinks he won.

So it’s not a leap to say he also might think he’s morally superior.  His side is full of good people, the other side is full of animals and thugs.

Could be though I think Sam is right.  I don't even think Trump knows what the term "morally superior" means.  I think he thinks that anyone supporting him is "good" and anyone not supporting him is "bad" and that the measurement is simply based on the "support" or loyalty and not at all on what those people believe in or don't believe in.

[JohnSnowsHair]

13 minutes ago, VanHammersly said:

That video was ridiculous.  It's Trumpism from the view of a conservative.  "Trump doesn't judge you." Um, yes he does.  Every other word out of his mouth is how someone's nasty or there are bad people that live in that liberal city, etc.  Trump doesn't judge conservatives.  And he allows them to enjoy hating liberals through his very public judgement of them.

He argues that Trump doesn't judge people on the basis of their morality. 

I don't think anybody would ever state that Trump does not judge people. He clearly does. More than most people he does. He just doesn't consider your morality when determining your value to him.

[DrPhilly]

13 minutes ago, VanHammersly said:

That video was ridiculous.  It's Trumpism from the view of a conservative.  "Trump doesn't judge you." Um, yes he does.  Every other word out of his mouth is how someone's nasty or there are bad people that live in that liberal city, etc.  Trump doesn't judge conservatives.  And he allows them to enjoy hating liberals through his very public judgement of them.

The judgement that Sam is speaking of is "moral" judgement.

Sam isn't a conservative.  From what I've read, watched, etc. he aligns much closer with the progressives.  However, he does hold some strong views that progressive don't share and because of that many like to try to label him as anti-progressive.

[VanHammersly]

5 minutes ago, JohnSnowsHair said:

He argues that Trump doesn't judge people on the basis of their morality. 

I don't think anybody would ever state that Trump does not judge people. He clearly does. More than most people he does. He just doesn't consider your morality when determining your value to him.

They're sending people that have lots of problems, and they're bringing those problems with us. They're bringing drugs. They're bringing crime. They're rapists. And some, I assume, are good people.

His very first speech.  And it only got worse from there.  Yes, Trump constantly judges people based on their morality.  Again, he just doesn't judge conservatives.