Did this team's upper brass get big-headed after 2017?

[LA_Eagle_Fan]

Nobody would trade the end result of 2017 for anything, but as is the case with many teams, success sometimes makes key figures develop an ego that's too big for their own good. Remember, entering that Super Bowl, we were touted as a team that was built to stay atop our division for the next half decade, and now we find ourselves stuck in quicksand three seasons removed.

With Doug now gone, if we look back, he showed a ton of signs that his ego started inflating. It started with the book he wrote (can't blame him for capitalizing on his chance, but still), then it felt like he stopped adjusting mid-game and turned back into Andy Reid pre-Mahomes. The team was poorly prepared to play in too many games to count and threw away a ton that they were supposed to win. Then, after a terrible season in which we didn't have an OC, he decides he'd promote from within rather than bring in an outside voice.

As for Howie, it feels as though winning it all convinced him that he's been "right" all along (especially after the lone year of Chip Kelly being in charge of personnel). Never mind that his drafts have produced so few Pro Bowlers or how often he'd taken disappointments over studs even before Chip Kelly's interruption; Howie stuck to his guns. The Patriots flat out exposed our defense in that Super Bowl, but because we won, it seems as though he didn't feel a need to fix it, and QBs continue to tear us up.

I maintain that Jeffrey is still a good owner, but winning it all may have also convinced him that his loyalty to Howie is warranted, even in the face of evidence that suggests otherwise.

I didn't expect a duplication of 2017, because the stars can't align for us like that every year, but to fall off like we've done...how much of it is because of ego?

[beto_eagles]

Yeah, I agree it has something to do. Calling it the "new norm" was also a bit arrogant in retrospective.

But I think the arrogance has mainly come from Howie. Drafting a TE was probably a luxury, not resigning Jenkins seems now like a power struggle, we should have kept Torrey Smith and draft someone instead of "upgrading" via FA, ignoring the LB position, trying to get smarter than anyone with Reagor or JJAW... 

[EazyEaglez]

Howie won executive of the year. Doug did not win coach of the year. Clearly Howie is better. Also Carson almost won MVP. Clearly Carson is better. They stay and the other guy goes. End of story. 

[NOTW]

Yes.  Colin Cowherd did a great piece on them comparing them to lottery winners that didn't know how to handle success and went broke.  Perfect analogy.

They finally won a SB.  Doug called it "the new normal."  Wentz told Foles it would be him up there next year, it would be his turn.  Doug wrote a book on success, they put up a statue to Doug and Foles (both gone now).  Cowherd pointed out teams with multiple championships don't have statues.

They believed their own hype, started each season slow and had to "fight back."  3 years in a row they've talked about believing in themselves, fighting when their backs are against the wall.  

They start seasons and games slow and have to wake up and play more focused.  Even Lane Johnson last year said guys weren't taking practice seriously.  They were riding that SB victory and Howie even admitted he was keeping older players (despite age and injury) to keep that team going.

[The Blackfish]

1 hour ago, LA_Eagle_Fan said:

Nobody would trade the end result of 2017 for anything, but as is the case with many teams, success sometimes makes key figures develop an ego that's too big for their own good. Remember, entering that Super Bowl, we were touted as a team that was built to stay atop our division for the next half decade, and now we find ourselves stuck in quicksand three seasons removed.

With Doug now gone, if we look back, he showed a ton of signs that his ego started inflating. It started with the book he wrote (can't blame him for capitalizing on his chance, but still), then it felt like he stopped adjusting mid-game and turned back into Andy Reid pre-Mahomes. The team was poorly prepared to play in too many games to count and threw away a ton that they were supposed to win. Then, after a terrible season in which we didn't have an OC, he decides he'd promote from within rather than bring in an outside voice.

As for Howie, it feels as though winning it all convinced him that he's been "right" all along (especially after the lone year of Chip Kelly being in charge of personnel). Never mind that his drafts have produced so few Pro Bowlers or how often he'd taken disappointments over studs even before Chip Kelly's interruption; Howie stuck to his guns. The Patriots flat out exposed our defense in that Super Bowl, but because we won, it seems as though he didn't feel a need to fix it, and QBs continue to tear us up.

I maintain that Jeffrey is still a good owner, but winning it all may have also convinced him that his loyalty to Howie is warranted, even in the face of evidence that suggests otherwise.

I didn't expect a duplication of 2017, because the stars can't align for us like that every year, but to fall off like we've done...how much of it is because of ego?

One Pro Bowler in Wentz since Chippah left I believe. 

[Mike030270]

15 minutes ago, NOTW said:

Yes.  Colin Cowherd did a great piece on them comparing them to lottery winners that didn't know how to handle success and went broke.  Perfect analogy.

They finally won a SB.  Doug called it "the new normal."  Wentz told Foles it would be him up there next year, it would be his turn.  Doug wrote a book on success, they put up a statue to Doug and Foles (both gone now).  Cowherd pointed out teams with multiple championships don't have statues.

They believed their own hype, started each season slow and had to "fight back."  3 years in a row they've talked about believing in themselves, fighting when their backs are against the wall.  

They start seasons and games slow and have to wake up and play more focused.  Even Lane Johnson last year said guys weren't taking practice seriously.  They were riding that SB victory and Howie even admitted he was keeping older players (despite age and injury) to keep that team going.

It really is perfect. Doug got too cocky with play calling and questions regarding pretty much anything

Howie got emotional with a bunch of contracts that ended up screwing us over. He also thought he was so smart with draft but is actually an idiot

[VaBeach_Eagle]

I think it has more to do with losing Frank and DeFilippo basically during the flight home from Minnesota. Losing 2 thirds of the offensive brain trust (half of it, if you include Duce as part of that), was just too much to lose so soon after winning it all. Keep Frank there with Doug and maybe things are very different right now. DeFilippo being the only one to go probably wouldn't have hurt as much as losing both him and Frank. 

By most accounts, Frank was the voice in Doug's ear, keeping him on course. Without him, the ship was rudderless. 

[NVeagle]

6 hours ago, LA_Eagle_Fan said:

I didn't expect a duplication of 2017, because the stars can't align for us like that every year,

Every 4th year.....

[Miami]

15 hours ago, VaBeach_Eagle said:

I think it has more to do with losing Frank and DeFilippo basically during the flight home from Minnesota. Losing 2 thirds of the offensive brain trust (half of it, if you include Duce as part of that), was just too much to lose so soon after winning it all. Keep Frank there with Doug and maybe things are very different right now. DeFilippo being the only one to go probably wouldn't have hurt as much as losing both him and Frank. 

By most accounts, Frank was the voice in Doug's ear, keeping him on course. Without him, the ship was rudderless. 

This may be right.  Doug has not hired well since which Lurie alluded to and wanted a 'leader of coaches' in his replacement.

[PoconoDon]

Howie is the problem. Until he is gone from the team no meaningful change will occur.

[weko]

You can't win in this league if you can't draft.  Simple as that.  Howie picks guys who can't play.

[JohnB]

No. they didn't get big headed. Howie Roseman bought us a Super Bowl by acquiring a bunch of really good talent (that Doug was able to make play cohesively together), many of which were only signed to 1 year contracts, and otherwise pretty short term contracts. After accomplishing the goal, there was no need to keep/re-sign all of those players

[time2rock]

On 1/21/2021 at 7:08 PM, NOTW said:

Yes.  Colin Cowherd did a great piece on them comparing them to lottery winners that didn't know how to handle success and went broke.  Perfect analogy.

They finally won a SB.  Doug called it "the new normal."  Wentz told Foles it would be him up there next year, it would be his turn.  Doug wrote a book on success, they put up a statue to Doug and Foles (both gone now).  Cowherd pointed out teams with multiple championships don't have statues.

They believed their own hype, started each season slow and had to "fight back."  3 years in a row they've talked about believing in themselves, fighting when their backs are against the wall.  

They start seasons and games slow and have to wake up and play more focused.  Even Lane Johnson last year said guys weren't taking practice seriously.  They were riding that SB victory and Howie even admitted he was keeping older players (despite age and injury) to keep that team going.

I've said this before, this team experiences an ounce of success and then can't help smelling themselves.  New norm, QB factory, gold standard ... sheesh.  You don't hear other teams referring to themselves in this manner (including those that did achieve sustained success like NE).  

[mjkvol]

On 1/21/2021 at 7:49 PM, VaBeach_Eagle said:

I think it has more to do with losing Frank and DeFilippo basically during the flight home from Minnesota. Losing 2 thirds of the offensive brain trust (half of it, if you include Duce as part of that), was just too much to lose so soon after winning it all. Keep Frank there with Doug and maybe things are very different right now. DeFilippo being the only one to go probably wouldn't have hurt as much as losing both him and Frank. 

By most accounts, Frank was the voice in Doug's ear, keeping him on course. Without him, the ship was rudderless. 

It may have made a bit of difference, but more and more it's become crystal clear that 2017, as glorious as it was, happened to be a perfect storm that had little to no shot of being replicated.           The Eagles got career years from a lot of journeymen/better than average players, every Roseman move turned to gold, and most importantly they got otherworldly play from two QB's who were never close to that before or since.

Unfortunately, Lurie and the national media didn't see it that way.         Lurie was led to believe the national media "executive of the year" hype about Roseman, and many national media people continue to treat him this way, like the dweeb passing as an "insider" at CBS Sports.com.  

Roseman has clearly shown his incompetence at a critical time when he didn't have the advantage of a QB on his rookie deal, when the draft would be vital in maintaining a solid, young base.         His band aid approach of covering holes from mediocre drafts with bargain signings that played like just that exposed him as being in way over his head, and 'locking up' a decent at best core has saddled the Eagles with a nightmarish cap situation.

Pederson is what many of us thought he would be when he was hired, a Reid acolyte with the same hideous in-game ability, but without the assistant who has proven to be the brains behind that offense and getting the most out of the QB's.          Keeping Reich in that spot was never going to happen, as he was clearly ready for a HC gig, which the Colts were smart enough to offer him.

But now is where Lurie really has shown that he bought into the idea that Roseman and the idiotic "collaborative" approach were the keys to the 2017 success.        He cleared out the coaches and hired from outside the organization, but has kept the man primarily responsible for the Eagles' current mess in place.            I don't care who the coach is, he isn't winning anything substantial with the decidedly average 'base' this team has.      9-7, even overachieving at 10-6?          Possible,  I suppose, if all goes right and one of the two QB's turns out to be the guy.          But most of us have higher hopes than being 'competitive'.

Bottom line is that the fate of the franchise rests with Roseman's ability to build a core of young talent, and the track record shows that it is highly unlikely that he can suddenly morph into an NFL GM capable of this kind of rebuild.           And combined with a meddling owner who believes his input is an important and valuable asset, it's hard to be optimistic about the near future.

[time2rock]

35 minutes ago, mjkvol said:

Bottom line is that the fate of the franchise rests with Roseman's ability to build a core of young talent, and the track record shows that it is highly unlikely that he can suddenly morph into an NFL GM capable of this kind of rebuild.           And combined with a meddling owner who believes his input is an important and valuable asset, it's hard to be optimistic about the near future.

Only quoting the last part of your post since it was lengthy but the entire response is spot on.  

[Swoop]

On 1/21/2021 at 7:05 PM, EazyEaglez said:

Howie won executive of the year. Doug did not win coach of the year. Clearly Howie is better. Also Carson almost won MVP. Clearly Carson is better. They stay and the other guy goes. End of story. 

Curious, are you actually capable of making a post without Wentz in it or are you truly that obsessed with him?

[NOTW]

2 hours ago, time2rock said:

I've said this before, this team experiences an ounce of success and then can't help smelling themselves.  New norm, QB factory, gold standard ... sheesh.  You don't hear other teams referring to themselves in this manner (including those that did achieve sustained success like NE).  

Yep. Patriots are PISSED when they don't won all their Super Bowls.

They didn't erect a statue.

[Talonblood]

Yes.

[EazyEaglez]

4 hours ago, Swoop said:

Curious, are you actually capable of making a post without Wentz in it or are you truly that obsessed with him?

He’s part of the process is he not? Is Philadelphia the place that quarterbacks only matter matter when they do good or named McNabb? 

[Procus]

The biggest mistake from a personnel standpoint was rewarding players for past performance instead of getting rid of them a year early like Bill Walsh used to.  That, and of course the Carson Wentz contract.

[UK_EaglesFan89]

I'm not sure the upper brass got big headed. I think they saw that they had a very very good talented roster, I think they saw that they had a potential window to perhaps repeat or get back to the SB a couple more times. And to be honest I don't think we should kill them for that either. They saw an opportunity and I don't think there is anything wrong with that. Bringing back some of the older guys wasn't the issue as such. The issue really was the drafting. They drafted so badly (and then seemingly didn't develop those young players) that once it came time to move on from the older guys they had nothing there to work with.

[ManchesterEagle]

4 hours ago, UK_EaglesFan89 said:

I'm not sure the upper brass got big headed. I think they saw that they had a very very good talented roster, I think they saw that they had a potential window to perhaps repeat or get back to the SB a couple more times. And to be honest I don't think we should kill them for that either. They saw an opportunity and I don't think there is anything wrong with that. Bringing back some of the older guys wasn't the issue as such. The issue really was the drafting. They drafted so badly (and then seemingly didn't develop those young players) that once it came time to move on from the older guys they had nothing there to work with.

Mostly agree with you.

The window was there and was real. Fact is in 2018 and 2019 the injuries were horrific. 2018, despite the injuries we were really close to getting to the Championship Game and both the Rams and Pats were very beatable that year. Even 2019, if Wentz and Josh both don't get injured against the Seahawks, we probably win that game and then who knows. I don't think the Eagles could have reasonably foreseen Agholor falling off a cliff for one year either.

As I've said before, I'm not a Howie fan, but I think his drafting has been not good/bad rather than awful. There have been some notable misses, but that's true of all teams.

I do think he's more culpable than Doug or Jim S though and he is the only one of those 3 to survive.

[UK_EaglesFan89]

31 minutes ago, ManchesterEagle said:

The window was there and was real. Fact is in 2018 and 2019 the injuries were horrific. 2018, despite the injuries we were really close to getting to the Championship Game and both the Rams and Pats were very beatable that year. Even 2019, if Wentz and Josh both don't get injured against the Seahawks, we probably win that game and then who knows. I don't think the Eagles could have reasonably foreseen Agholor falling off a cliff for one year either.

I mean look I think there was a very good case / argument to say that the roster on paper was better going in to 2018 than it was in 2017. I absolutely think there was a window there for this team and they tried to seize on that opportunity. I can't and I won't kill them for that but they did such a bad drafting in the meantime that it's hurt them going forwards and that is where my issue lies.

[NOTW]

6 hours ago, UK_EaglesFan89 said:

I'm not sure the upper brass got big headed. I think they saw that they had a very very good talented roster, I think they saw that they had a potential window to perhaps repeat or get back to the SB a couple more times. And to be honest I don't think we should kill them for that either. They saw an opportunity and I don't think there is anything wrong with that. Bringing back some of the older guys wasn't the issue as such. The issue really was the drafting. They drafted so badly (and then seemingly didn't develop those young players) that once it came time to move on from the older guys they had nothing there to work with.

No I think they got a HUGE ego about it.  They erected a statue, Doug wrote a book, Carson told Foles it would be him next year, and they kept starting the season and games slow and having to come back.  They were hyping themselves up, dancing and practicing celebrations.  If you remember, Lane Johnson called out guys for not being focused in practice and working hard enough leading to mistakes and penalties.  I don't like what Orlando Scandrick did, it was a lot of sour grapes but he did say that they had such big heads about winning the Super Bowl and weren't open to ideas because they thought they had arrived.  Then a player on twitter proved that point by saying he should shut up because he didn't win a Super Bowl.

 

[E-A-G-L-E-S Eagles]

28 minutes ago, NOTW said:

No I think they got a HUGE ego about it.  They erected a statue, Doug wrote a book, Carson told Foles it would be him next year, and they kept starting the season and games slow and having to come back.  They were hyping themselves up, dancing and practicing celebrations.  If you remember, Lane Johnson called out guys for not being focused in practice and working hard enough leading to mistakes and penalties.  I don't like what Orlando Scandrick did, it was a lot of sour grapes but he did say that they had such big heads about winning the Super Bowl and weren't open to ideas because they thought they had arrived.  Then a player on twitter proved that point by saying he should shut up because he didn't win a Super Bowl.

The dumbest part of the whole period afterwards was allowing Bud Light to erect that statue at the Linc.  I get Carson's comment at the end of the game and Doug's book, but that statue was too much.  

Also, the same "we've arrived" attitude ran wild with the fans.