This is not a rebuild!

[Portyansky]

6 hours ago, 4for4EaglesNest said:

See notes.  That's a list of a team that needed bodies to fill holes and mostly did just that.  Not a team that is ready to compete.  

I hear ya. But 2017/18 will never leave my mind with all the 1 year contracts given out. Yes it took Foles to ignite like a God. But we filled many spots with 1 year guys AND I feel our D is better now than that year..

[jmac+djaxallday]

20 hours ago, brkmsn said:

People around here crack me up with all the "age" nonsense. It doesn't matter how young or old a team is. It only matters how productive it is.

 

At the beginning of the season last year the youngest team's average age was: 24.9 (JAX), the Eagles were 19th at 26.0, the falcons were last at 26.9, the 2 SB teams were (KC)25.9 and (TB)26.3. Interestingly a team associated with being young, Cardinals were 26.1.

 

Last year one of our oldest players, JP, had clearly declined to the point of liability. The so-called "old" guys we have this year are some of our best players (Brooks, Johnson, Kelce, Graham, Cox, Slay. 

I don't know what to make of this post - on one hand it sounds like you're agreeing with me; on the other you describe it as "nonsense."  

Average age isn't relevant because not all players on a roster are created equal.  The guys we're counting on this year are a 2020 Jason Peters waiting to happen.

[brkmsn]

5 minutes ago, jmac+djaxallday said:

  The guys we're counting on this year are a 2020 Jason Peters waiting to happen.

JP showed signs of decline in 2019. Last year he was an emergency option that wasn't really part of the plan heading into the season. His decline (and lack of preparation) at LT made him a liability and he was way less effective at RG than Herbig. Tell me, which of our "old" guys had a year where their play (when healthy) was comparable to JP's concerning 2019 season?

 

[Iggles_Phan]

On 7/25/2021 at 9:17 PM, Portyansky said:

Honestly Howie did a great job. Draft and signing key players. Yes there are some bandaids. But so was SB year. Possibly 3 first round picks next year, we will be in even better shape with the cap.
Steven Nelson
Ryan Kerrigan
Anthony Harris
Eric Wilson
Devonta Smith 
Landon Dickerson 
Kerryon Johnson

that's not a list of a team in rebuild (I missed a few)

Nelson - 1 year deal
Kerrigan - 1 year deal
Harris - 1 year deal
Wilson - 1 year deal
Johnson - scrap heap pick up

 

Smith - top 10 draft pick, earned by sucking
Dickerson - 37th pick, earned by sucking

 

Howie went bargain bin shopping.  The upsetting part of this is that these players all have 1 year deals, and yet somehow Howie managed to stretch that money over two years and so we'll have the joy of paying them after their contributions to the team (if they make any significant contributions) are long gone.

 

 

[wyote]

16 hours ago, 4for4EaglesNest said:

Our starters?  Ok, sure.

QB- Hurts.  Running QB with limited field awareness in the passing game.  Not a long term solution.  

LT- Not sure

LG- Seamaulo. Average.

C- Kelce. Good but old

RG- Brookes.  Good but getting old and coming off another injury

RT- Johnson.  Good but getting old and coming off another injury

RB- Sanders.  Nice player

TE- Goedert.  Nice player

WR1- Smith.  Great college player....166 lb rookie

WR2- I'm assuming it's Reagor.  Over-drafted and underwhelming

WR3- WHO?  Fulgham?  Uhh...ok? 

 

DE- Barnett or Sweat- Not great by any means, although I like Sweats upside.

DT- Cox is getting up there and not as great as he once was.

DT- Hargrave.  I am excited to see what he brings this year.

DE- BG is old and certainly not explosive.

WLB- Alex Singleton.  Nice season, we'll see if he can keep it up.

MLB- Eric WIlson.  Decent addition which equals a major upgrade over the garbage we had there last year.

SLB- Bradley.  6th rounder from Temple.....soooo.  Uhh, we'll see I guess.

CB- Slay.  Good player.  Overrated.

CB- Nelson.  Nice upgrade but not avg player who sat jobless for months.

SS- McLeod.  Hurt....will he start the season?

FS- Harris.  Nice addition.  Not a superstar.  But an upgrade.  

 

 

This team is ready to compete for what, might I ask?  

I think you've overestimated some of those players, perhaps trying to be generous to your interlocutors. Anyway, this team is ready to compete for 2nd or 3rd place in the NFC East. If it competes for more than that with a first-year head coach and all the insanity that will be going on, it'll be very impressive. 

[ManchesterEagle]

10 hours ago, Portyansky said:

I hear ya. But 2017/18 will never leave my mind with all the 1 year contracts given out. Yes it took Foles to ignite like a God. But we filled many spots with 1 year guys AND I feel our D is better now than that year..

 

9 hours ago, 4for4EaglesNest said:

Foles ignited in the postseason.  But it took the hated one Wentz to get us HFA.  2017 was an outlier.  A special time.  A lot of players had career years that year.  It all came together.  This team is nothing like that.  😅

Pretty much nobody saw us as contenders in 2017 either. With the Nelson addition, we could be competitive. A lot depends on Hurts, the new coaching staff and health, but on paper at least the starters look pretty good and we should be competitive in a weak division.

[NYEagle]

4-13

[Cochis_Calhoun]

The big question is again the right side of the O Line, if Brookes is fully healthy he will be better than Herbig and Pryor, but Lane was in and out of games he managed to play last year, and we saw what that did to the line when Peters was doing it late in his career, Doug indulged stuff like that a lot, but the fact is a consistent line is always going to be better than one where a star is having to take plays off to nurse an injury.

I'd see a .500 year as a major positive this year provided the first and second year players show that they have 'it' that the coaching is having an effect as opposed to the Doug era's plateauing or regressing.

[Infam]

54 minutes ago, 4for4EaglesNest said:

And here I’m one of the more realistic posters, not all sunshine and roses.  

Yes.  This is just like 2017. 

6-11

12-5

[ManchesterEagle]

1 hour ago, 4for4EaglesNest said:

And here I’m one of the more realistic posters, not all sunshine and roses.  

Yes.  This is just like 2017. 

6-11

 

8 minutes ago, Infam said:

12-5

It is just like 2017 in that nobody really sees us as competitors and a lot has to go right for us to be truly competitive (although we should be at least in play for the division).

[Infam]

2 minutes ago, ManchesterEagle said:

 

It is just like 2017 in that nobody really sees us as competitors and a lot has to go right for us to be truly competitive (although we should be at least in play for the division).

Agreed. Yet the people arguing how bad the team is have a lot of praise for the players all over the team, which leads me to believe it’s mostly based on last years record and not a real projection based on our current roster.

[time2rock]

On 7/26/2021 at 1:15 AM, downundermike said:

How many games have Brooks and Johnson missed to injury recently ?? 

Too many to feel confident in their ability to stay healthy for a full 17 game season.  

[Iggles_Phan]

5 hours ago, ManchesterEagle said:

 

Pretty much nobody saw us as contenders in 2017 either. With the Nelson addition, we could be competitive. A lot depends on Hurts, the new coaching staff and health, but on paper at least the starters look pretty good and we should be competitive in a weak division.

This division will not be as weak as it was last year.   With Nelson or without him, this is a sub-500 team.  Maybe the addition of Nelson adds 2 wins to a 4 win team... now instead of 4-13, they are 6-11.  Maybe they get all the way up to 7-10 or even 8-9.  In reality though... is that a benefit or a hinderance to the team's future?    Wouldn't it actually be better for the team in the long run to end up 4-13, land a top 5 pick next year and be poised to add a true blue-chip prospect, rather than to land in the middle of NFL purgatory, even on the front edge a bit, and end up with a pick in the 10-14 range? 

[Bwestbrook36]

3 hours ago, Cochis_Calhoun said:

The big question is again the right side of the O Line, if Brookes is fully healthy he will be better than Herbig and Pryor, but Lane was in and out of games he managed to play last year, and we saw what that did to the line when Peters was doing it late in his career, Doug indulged stuff like that a lot, but the fact is a consistent line is always going to be better than one where a star is having to take plays off to nurse an injury.

I'd see a .500 year as a major positive this year provided the first and second year players show that they have 'it' that the coaching is having an effect as opposed to the Doug era's plateauing or regressing.

There is no .500 year and I refuse to make a prediction because of it!

[Cochis_Calhoun]

Just now, Bwestbrook36 said:

There is no .500 year and I refuse to make a prediction because of it!

I see 8-8-1 as a positive.

[Bwestbrook36]

Just now, Cochis_Calhoun said:

I see 8-8-1 as a positive.

Ahh you threw a tie in there lol. It would be a positive. 

[jmac+djaxallday]

14 hours ago, brkmsn said:

Last year he was an emergency option that wasn't really part of the plan heading into the season.

 

Fair point, but I don't remember his decline being that drastic until 2020.  In retrospect, it was shrewd for the team to move on when they did even if they eventually had to bring him back.  Bradham is another guy they seemed to guess right on.  Same with Jenkins.

I hope Howie and Co. can develop a knack for pinpointing the decline of aging players, but it's not an exact science - and to answer your question, I'd say Kelce, Cox, Slay, and maybe even Graham all showed signs of decline last season.  Brooks was the best guard in football last time we saw him, but he hasn't played in two years and will be 32, coming off significant injuries, at a position that typically doesn't age well.  I guess the hope that is his career plays out similarly to Marshal Yanda, who played like an all-pro through age 34 before retiring.  Of the vets, Lane's the guy I could see going either way - maybe he plays another 5+ years at an elite level ala Andrew Whitworth or maybe he continues to break down physically and has to retire at some point in the near future.

Then there's McLeod who's coming off a late season ACL.

 

[ManchesterEagle]

54 minutes ago, Iggles_Phan said:

This division will not be as weak as it was last year.   With Nelson or without him, this is a sub-500 team.  Maybe the addition of Nelson adds 2 wins to a 4 win team... now instead of 4-13, they are 6-11.  Maybe they get all the way up to 7-10 or even 8-9.  In reality though... is that a benefit or a hinderance to the team's future?    Wouldn't it actually be better for the team in the long run to end up 4-13, land a top 5 pick next year and be poised to add a true blue-chip prospect, rather than to land in the middle of NFL purgatory, even on the front edge a bit, and end up with a pick in the 10-14 range? 

I just think there are too many unknowns with this team to say we are a 6-11 - 8-9 team. I could make a case for 4-13. I could also make a case for 12-5.

How will Hurts look in year 2? Can the line stay healthier/the younger linemen develop. Can Devonta Smith be our number 1 WR out of the gate. How does Siriani do. What do Cox, Graham and Slay have left. Can Goedert develop into the top 5 TE he has shown flashes of. 

I agree to a degree regarding may be better to finish 4-13 then 8-9, but it depends on the circumstances. If we finish 8-9 and Hurts looks really good then that means we don't have to spend capital on a QB.  If we finish 4-13 and Hurts sucks then we get a high first pick, but we have to use that and possibly more on trading for/drafting a QB. 

[Iggles_Phan]

3 hours ago, ManchesterEagle said:

I just think there are too many unknowns with this team to say we are a 6-11 - 8-9 team. I could make a case for 4-13. I could also make a case for 12-5.

How will Hurts look in year 2? Can the line stay healthier/the younger linemen develop. Can Devonta Smith be our number 1 WR out of the gate. How does Siriani do. What do Cox, Graham and Slay have left. Can Goedert develop into the top 5 TE he has shown flashes of. 

I agree to a degree regarding may be better to finish 4-13 then 8-9, but it depends on the circumstances. If we finish 8-9 and Hurts looks really good then that means we don't have to spend capital on a QB.  If we finish 4-13 and Hurts sucks then we get a high first pick, but we have to use that and possibly more on trading for/drafting a QB. 

Go for it.  Make the case for 12-5.  

 

I threw those records out for the sake of discussion... I don't think that this team will lose every game, and Hurts' legs will likely win a game or two that they have no business winning.   But, talent wise, this is not a team that is built to be over 500.  Maybe its going to be 8-9, and maybe Hurts does look really good.  I doubt that will happen, but that's the hope.  But, frankly, I'd rather have a team that can't hold a lead and force Hurts into the situation to win games by being able to throw... being able to put points up in the 2nd half, and even in the 4th quarter.   That's what this league really comes down to now... what does your QB do when crunch time hits.  Last year, Hurts was completely stifled by defenses when they had a chance to adjust at halftime.  And he was even more stifled in the games where teams had weeks to prepare for him specifically.    And that means not signing Nelson.  Nelson in a vacuum is a nice signing.  Nelson on a team that's going no where anyway... just pushes the draft pick we need to hit on next April back a few slots.  Those slots could be very valuable.   As we saw this past year... moving from #6 to ultimately #10 gained us an extra first round pick.  That will be nice to have this April.  

[ManchesterEagle]

25 minutes ago, Iggles_Phan said:

Go for it.  Make the case for 12-5.  

 

I threw those records out for the sake of discussion... I don't think that this team will lose every game, and Hurts' legs will likely win a game or two that they have no business winning.   But, talent wise, this is not a team that is built to be over 500.  Maybe its going to be 8-9, and maybe Hurts does look really good.  I doubt that will happen, but that's the hope.  But, frankly, I'd rather have a team that can't hold a lead and force Hurts into the situation to win games by being able to throw... being able to put points up in the 2nd half, and even in the 4th quarter.   That's what this league really comes down to now... what does your QB do when crunch time hits.  Last year, Hurts was completely stifled by defenses when they had a chance to adjust at halftime.  And he was even more stifled in the games where teams had weeks to prepare for him specifically.    And that means not signing Nelson.  Nelson is a vacuum is a nice signing.  Nelson on a team that's going no where anyway... just pushes the draft pick we need to hit on next April back a few slots.  Those slots could be very valuable.   As we saw this past year... moving from #6 to ultimately #10 gained us an extra first round pick.  That will be nice to have this April.  

I was the reverse with Nelson. I would rather Hurts played more controlled football. Took what the D gives him, make use of the read option, protect the ball. He looked good at times doing that. I don't want him desperately chasing games as the D gives up TD after TD at this stage of his career. Hey let's just hope that Miami really sucks and the Colts suck but don't bench Wentz.

Case for 12-5 - okay here goes. Obviously a lot of things have to go right.

The O-Line returns to being a top 5 unit in the NFL. Sure it's likely one or both of Brooks and Johnson miss time, but we have Dillard back and healthy and Dickerson who should hopefully be available for most of the season. That's 7 good to very good O-Linemen. Last year we couldn't have had worse luck in respect of injuries.

Wide receiver - Devonta Smith as a top 10 pick becomes our number 1 WR. Doesn't need to put up Jefferson numbers, but with his skill set and route running it's more than possible he could put up 1,000 yards and 8 TDs in 17 games. Reagor was on pace for 700 yards with Hurts at QB. A small improvement and there's no reason he couldn't put up 800 yards and 5-6 TDs as WR2.

TE - Goedert fulfills his promise and turns into a top 5 TE - puts up 900 yards and 6-8 TDs. Who knows if Eagles play well, Ertz could form a dangerous 1-2 punch, playing for his final contract somewhere else.

RB - Sanders continues to be Sanders. Gainwell emerges as a dangerous RB2. Eagles get production from Kerryon Johnson.

QB - with the above providing him with better protection and legitimate weapons, Hurts flourishes and has a breakout 2nd season. Suddenly he is close to the Russell Wilson mark 2 the Eagles were hoping for. Improves his pocket passing and uses his legs, not too often but to good effect.

D- Line - strength of the group. The 8 man rotation keeps Cox and Graham fresh and productive. Barnett and Sweat deliver on their promise. Hargrave is already good and Williams becomes a dangerous rotational tackle.

Linebacker - well this isn't going to be a strength, but Wilson gives us a bit more in coverage and Singleton continues to be solid.

Safety - Wallace develops and/or McLeod gets healthy. Harris, who isn't that old, reverts back to 2017-2019 form and is a dangerous playmaker for us.

Corner - Slay returns to pro-bowl form under Gannon and stays healthy. Nelson also returns to 2018-2019 form and with Slay taking the WR1, has a really strong season opposite him. Maddox is back in the slot where he is far better.

[Iggles_Phan]

41 minutes ago, ManchesterEagle said:

I was the reverse with Nelson. I would rather Hurts played more controlled football. Took what the D gives him, make use of the read option, protect the ball. He looked good at times doing that. I don't want him desperately chasing games as the D gives up TD after TD at this stage of his career. Hey let's just hope that Miami really sucks and the Colts suck but don't bench Wentz.

Case for 12-5 - okay here goes. Obviously a lot of things have to go right.

 

Agreed on Miami and the Colts.   I think best case scenario for the Colts pick would be in the 15-19 range.  If they aren't in the hunt for the playoffs, they might bench him at the end of the season just to save the pick... they might, they might not.  And Miami, you just have to hope Tua never figures it out, that going with Waddle over Smith was a terrible decision, and that Brian Flores starts to follow the legacy of all former Belichek assistants and goes into the crapper.   But, again, I don't see them being inside the top 10... they could, but I doubt it.   It really comes down to Tua, more than anything else. 

 

Nice case for 12-5... I don't see all those stars aligning, but I suppose it is possible.

[ManchesterEagle]

1 hour ago, Iggles_Phan said:

 

Agreed on Miami and the Colts.   I think best case scenario for the Colts pick would be in the 15-19 range.  If they aren't in the hunt for the playoffs, they might bench him at the end of the season just to save the pick... they might, they might not.  And Miami, you just have to hope Tua never figures it out, that going with Waddle over Smith was a terrible decision, and that Brian Flores starts to follow the legacy of all former Belichek assistants and goes into the crapper.   But, again, I don't see them being inside the top 10... they could, but I doubt it.   It really comes down to Tua, more than anything else. 

 

Nice case for 12-5... I don't see all those stars aligning, but I suppose it is possible.

Yeah, I'm wondering what they would do if they are say 5-7. Wentz is pretty fragile, but if they tell him benching him is to screw the Eagles over, maybe he's on board. The issue is that the Colts D is pretty good, so for the Colts to really struggle, then either Wentz has to suck or be hurt. Either of which puts the first rounder in jeopardy. Best realistic case as you say is probably 15-19 range, but I think the Colts are probably at least a wildcard team.

Miami I think have more of a chance to suck. Can't see them getting past the Bills which is good. Hopefully the Pats can also cause them issues after their free agency splurge. I don't think their D will be quite as good this year. As you say a lot depends on Tua.

Thanks - yeah agreed, I think in all probability Eagles are somewhere between 6-9 wins. But there is a not totally outlandish route to the Eagles being really good next year. (Note I avoided the JJAW turns into an allpro! Gainwell is the new Barry Sanders! etc). A lot rests on Hurts. I just think some people are writing him off way too quickly. 

[Iggles_Phan]

3 minutes ago, ManchesterEagle said:

Yeah, I'm wondering what they would do if they are say 5-7. Wentz is pretty fragile, but if they tell him benching him is to screw the Eagles over, maybe he's on board. The issue is that the Colts D is pretty good, so for the Colts to really struggle, then either Wentz has to suck or be hurt. Either of which puts the first rounder in jeopardy. Best realistic case as you say is probably 15-19 range, but I think the Colts are probably at least a wildcard team.

Miami I think have more of a chance to suck. Can't see them getting past the Bills which is good. Hopefully the Pats can also cause them issues after their free agency splurge. I don't think their D will be quite as good this year. As you say a lot depends on Tua.

Thanks - yeah agreed, I think in all probability Eagles are somewhere between 6-9 wins. But there is a not totally outlandish route to the Eagles being really good next year. (Note I avoided the JJAW turns into an allpro! Gainwell is the new Barry Sanders! etc). A lot rests on Hurts. I just think some people are writing him off way too quickly. 

Agreed, but at the same time... that wouldn't be the best case for the Eagles.

[wyote]

22 hours ago, ManchesterEagle said:

I was the reverse with Nelson. I would rather Hurts played more controlled football. Took what the D gives him, make use of the read option, protect the ball. He looked good at times doing that. I don't want him desperately chasing games as the D gives up TD after TD at this stage of his career. Hey let's just hope that Miami really sucks and the Colts suck but don't bench Wentz.

Case for 12-5 - okay here goes. Obviously a lot of things have to go right.

The O-Line returns to being a top 5 unit in the NFL. Sure it's likely one or both of Brooks and Johnson miss time, but we have Dillard back and healthy and Dickerson who should hopefully be available for most of the season. That's 7 good to very good O-Linemen. Last year we couldn't have had worse luck in respect of injuries.

Wide receiver - Devonta Smith as a top 10 pick becomes our number 1 WR. Doesn't need to put up Jefferson numbers, but with his skill set and route running it's more than possible he could put up 1,000 yards and 8 TDs in 17 games. Reagor was on pace for 700 yards with Hurts at QB. A small improvement and there's no reason he couldn't put up 800 yards and 5-6 TDs as WR2.

TE - Goedert fulfills his promise and turns into a top 5 TE - puts up 900 yards and 6-8 TDs. Who knows if Eagles play well, Ertz could form a dangerous 1-2 punch, playing for his final contract somewhere else.

RB - Sanders continues to be Sanders. Gainwell emerges as a dangerous RB2. Eagles get production from Kerryon Johnson.

QB - with the above providing him with better protection and legitimate weapons, Hurts flourishes and has a breakout 2nd season. Suddenly he is close to the Russell Wilson mark 2 the Eagles were hoping for. Improves his pocket passing and uses his legs, not too often but to good effect.

D- Line - strength of the group. The 8 man rotation keeps Cox and Graham fresh and productive. Barnett and Sweat deliver on their promise. Hargrave is already good and Williams becomes a dangerous rotational tackle.

Linebacker - well this isn't going to be a strength, but Wilson gives us a bit more in coverage and Singleton continues to be solid.

Safety - Wallace develops and/or McLeod gets healthy. Harris, who isn't that old, reverts back to 2017-2019 form and is a dangerous playmaker for us.

Corner - Slay returns to pro-bowl form under Gannon and stays healthy. Nelson also returns to 2018-2019 form and with Slay taking the WR1, has a really strong season opposite him. Maddox is back in the slot where he is far better.

It's good to be aware of the upside of things as long as people don't lose their minds when more realistic scenarios come about. 

 

 

 

[judunno]

I'm bracing myself to suck this year and next personally. Setting the bar real low.