Is Hurts or Sirianni a bigger concern in Roob's Eagles observations

[time2rock]

Is Hurts or Sirianni a bigger concern in Roob's Eagles observations

 

Who was most responsible for the Eagles’ offensive meltdown Monday night in Dallas? What's the latest on the quarterback in Indy? How about an all-encompassing Miles Sanders stat to put his lack of use in perspective?

It’s all here along with a lot more in this week’s Roob’s 10 random Eagles observations.

1. Whose fault is it? It’s everybody’s fault. But for me, I’m more concerned with Nick Sirianni’s play calling than Jalen Hurts’ performance. Sirianni may be a rookie head coach, but he’s in his 13^th year as an NFL coach. He was an offensive coordinator for three years. He should be better than this. He should be able to call a football game without forgetting about Miles Sanders and the running game. Hurts is a 23-year-old kid who’s started seven games in his career, and it’s just about impossible for any young quarterback to flourish if the coach isn't helping. His play calling simply gave Hurts no chance. I’m not saying Hurts has played well. He hasn’t over the last two weeks. The underthrown passes, the locking onto one receiver, the misfires to open guys are absolutely his fault. We’ve seen some really promising moments from Hurts and also some really disappointing ones. But until Sirianni figures out how to call a game that keeps defenses off-balance, that involves the Eagles’ best weapons, that gets the offense into a rhythm, it’s impossible to get a feel for what the Eagles have in Hurts. Right now, his coach isn’t giving him a chance.

2. One stat to sum up Miles Sanders’ career so far: Since he entered the NFL in 2019, Sanders has the third-highest yards-per-touch of any running back [5.70] and the 3^rd-most plays of 25 yards or more [18]. He trails only Austin Ekeler [6.22] and Christian McCaffrey [5.72] in yards per touch and trails only Derrick Henry and Nick Chubb [19 each] in 25-yard plays. During the same span, he’s 16^th among running backs with 459 touches.

3. The QB in Indy has won 3 of his last 16 starts, and he’s generated 17 or fewer points in 12 of those 16 starts. Including eight straight.

4. Howie Roseman’s failure to draft impact defensive players has really had a catastrophic effect on the franchise. Since the 2013 draft, the Eagles have drafted 37 defensive players — 15 in the first four rounds. As Eagles, those 37 players have combined for 27 interceptions, 53 1/2 sacks and 13 forced fumbles. That’s 93 1/2 impact plays in 131 games over eight-plus seasons. The only draft picks during the last nine years with more than two interceptions as Eagles are Jordan Hicks (7), Rasul Douglas (5), Jalen Mills (5) and Nate Gerry (3). The only draft picks with more than six sacks over the last nine years are Derek Barnett (19 1/2) and Josh Sweat (10 1/2). And the only draft picks with more than two forced fumbles during that span are Sweat, Barnett and Bennie Logan (3 each). For the sake of comparison, Brian Dawkins had 34 interceptions, 21 sacks and 32 forced fumbles just by himself in his 13 years here. So one guy had 87 impact plays as an Eagle, and the entire 2013 through 2021 draft classes have 93 1/2. Mind-blowing.

4A. Just to put this in perspective, the Eagles have selected three defensive Pro Bowl players in the last 15 drafts (not including this year’s): Trent Cole in the 5^th round in 2005, Brandon Graham in 2011 and Fletcher Cox in 2012. Three in 15 years. Soon to be three in 16 years.

5. I don’t think Ryan Kerrigan is going to last the month.

6. It’s time to start thinking about Derek Barnett in terms of being a colossal bust. The dude was the 14^th pick in the 2017 draft and he’s averaged 4.9 sacks per year. Over the last 25 years, the Eagles have drafted 10 players with a top-14 pick and only Barnett and Brodrick Bunkley – the 14^th pick in 2006 – failed to make a Pro Bowl. Four years-plus into his career, he’s got more career penalties than sacks, and he’s earned nearly $23 million, or more than $1 million per sack. Since he was drafted, 64 players have more sacks than Barnett. Eleven players have twice as many sacks. We all just keep waiting to see something special, and it’s just not going to happen.

7. When it comes to yards-per-target, Quez Watkins (26.6), Dallas Goedert (12.0) and Zach Ertz (8.5) are way ahead of any other Eagles skill players, but DeVonta Smith and Jalen Reagor have far more targets – 21 and 19 – than Goedert and Ertz (11 each) or Watkins (7). The Eagles should be trying to get Smith and Reagor going, but when you have a struggling offense, an inconsistent quarterback and wide receivers still trying to find their way, it makes sense to make your tight ends a bigger focus of the offense. Goedert and Ertz rank second and 12^th among all NFL tight ends in yards-per-target but they’re tied for 21^th in targets. They’re the two most experienced skill guys on the team. Goedert, Ertz and Miles Sanders are the three guys who have a proven track record of playmaking. And they’re the three guys getting the ball the least.

8. Hurts’ 10 touchdown passes equals the most by an Eagles QB in his first seven career starts since Sonny Jurgensen had 12 TD passes in his first seven starts from 1957 through 1961.

9. Speaking of Quez … he’s got three 40-yard catches in his first nine games. DeSean Jackson didn’t record his third 40-yard catch until his 18^th game. Now, by his 32^ndgame, D-Jack had 14 catches of at least 40 yards. DeSean was also playing with a five-time Pro Bowl quarterback, and Quez is playing with a 23-year-old project who’s made seven career starts. Watkins has only been targeted seven times this year but he’s one of only eight NFL WRs with more than one 40-yard catch. Jackson is the greatest deep threat in NFL history. Watkins – a 6^th-round pick who didn’t even start playing until late last year – is on his way to being a pretty good one himself.

10. This next month – Chiefs, Panthers, Bucs, Raiders – is a flat-out minefield. Two Super Bowl teams and two 3-0 teams. The Eagles could very well be 1-6 in 22 days with a six-game losing streak. If that happens, how do they react? How do they respond? Do they keep fighting? Do Sirianni’s messages about core values and Dawg Mentality and overcoming adversity still get through? It was 22 years ago that Andy Reid’s first Eagles team opened the season 0-4 and 2-7 with several blowout losses along the way. But Big Red never lost that team, and by the end of the season Donovan McNabb was playing well, the defense was gaining confidence, the blowouts turned into close losses and they even won their last two games. You could tell they were on the right track. You could tell Reid’s message was getting through. Not by their record – they finished 5-11 – but by how they stayed together through all the losses, all the blowouts, all the adversity. That was an 11-win playoff team a year later. Does Sirianni have it in him to keep this thing on the rails?

https://www.nbcsports.com/philadelphia/eagles/eagles-observations-jalen-hurts-nick-sirianni-bigger-concern

[Miami]

Have to go with Siri.  Doesn’t want to run the ball, particularly at the goal line.  Hurts does make some bad throws but he is being asked to throw a lot.

[PoconoDon]

Sirianni is a 1st time play caller and HC combo. Of course he's going to mess up a lot. He's developing in an area he should have developed 5 years ago. Of course more experienced coaches apparently didn't want the job. so Lurie and Howie had to take this underdeveloped guy who, as a former WR coach, forgets there's a run game every week. Oh, and that apparently suits Lurie just fine. 

Hurts is an athletic QB2. His levels of accuracy and arm strength will keep him there. I don't think he'll be the long term answer at QB and I also don't think the 2022 draft class offers a long term answer at QB. Tough spot for the Eagles both the rest of this season and next season. 2023 class may have a QB or two. Time will tell.

To me they are both big problems. 

[time2rock]

1 hour ago, PoconoDon said:

Sirianni is a 1st time play caller and HC combo. Of course he's going to mess up a lot. He's developing in an area he should have developed 5 years ago. Of course more experienced coaches apparently didn't want the job. so Lurie and Howie had to take this underdeveloped guy who, as a former WR coach, forgets there's a run game every week. Oh, and that apparently suits Lurie just fine. 

Hurts is an athletic QB2. His levels of accuracy and arm strength will keep him there. I don't think he'll be the long term answer at QB and I also don't think the 2022 draft class offers a long term answer at QB. Tough spot for the Eagles both the rest of this season and next season. 2023 class may have a QB or two. Time will tell.

To me they are both big problems. 

I've been having the exact same thoughts.  It's a shame that, when we set ourselves up perfectly to make a move to the top of the board for a QB that the top prospects would be mostly underwhelming.  Their best strategy may be to try to move one of those 2022 1sts to 2023 (picking up a later 1st and either a 2022 2nd or another future high pick in the process) and then roll another year with either Hurts or Minshew.  That would allow us to use what would still be a pretty nice collection of high picks next April to fortify the roster with some elite prospects at positions of serious need of a talent infusion.  Make the roster stronger so that when we do add a QB he has much better odds of succeeding.  

[PoconoDon]

2 minutes ago, time2rock said:

I've been having the exact same thoughts.  It's a shame that, when we set ourselves up perfectly to make a move to the top of the board for a QB that the top prospects would be mostly underwhelming.  Their best strategy may be to try to move one of those 2022 1sts to 2023 (picking up a later 1st and either a 2022 2nd or another 1st in 2023 in the process) and then roll another year with either Hurts or Minshew.  That would allow us to use what would still be a pretty nice collection of high picks in April to fortify the roster with some elite prospects at positions of serious need of a talent infusion.  Make the roster stronger so that when we do add a QB he has much better odds of succeeding.  

The lack of a premiere QB prospect is another reason why I'm on the Stingley Jr. train. At least they can get a top CB prospect while still acquiring assets for the following year's draft. I think this latest rebuild is at best, going to be 4 more off seasons, and that's if a few things break right for this team. 

[time2rock]

2 minutes ago, PoconoDon said:

The lack of a premiere QB prospect is another reason why I'm on the Stingley Jr. train. At least they can get a top CB prospect while still acquiring assets for the following year's draft. I think this latest rebuild is at best, going to be 4 more off seasons, and that's if a few things break right for this team. 

That all hinges mostly on hitting on whatever prospects we do add (regardless of position).  Knowing who is in charge of making those picks, I don't feel very confident.  That game against Dallas last weekend showed just how much of a disparity there is in young talent between our teams.  Jerry and his staff of evaluators are MUCH better at identifying talent than the law school graduate.  

[birdman#12]

Hurts is actually developing nicely in my opinion, while not getting much help from Sirianni in the play calling.  Again the eagles are asking a very young QB to throw the ball 40+ times a game, which has been completely unnecessary, especially with the quality of RBs this team has.  Hurts has made some mistakes, but he isn't the guy committing the stupid penalties that have cost the eagles quite a few TDs.  The mistakes Hurts has made are FIXABLE issues given enough time and patience.

To criticize Hurts as "not the long term answer" at this point is really stupid and shortsighted.....he obviously has some areas to improve, but those areas are going to glare a little more when he's being asked to throw the ball 40+ times a game.  If Sirianni would use Sanders, Gainwell, Scott AND Jordan Howard 25-30 times a game, the eagles would be cranking out 150 yards a game on the ground and taking a lot of pressure off of Hurts.

Hurts could develop into a hell of a QB if he's given the chance and the coaching/game plan support.  But philly media and fans are already throwing in the towel, so typical and clueless. 

Sirianni on the other hand, is baffling with his resistance to run the ball.....when he was hired, I heard so much about how he'll run the ball which turns out to be bullsh--.  Unless he's been told by the front office to make Hurts throw as much as possible so they can evaluate him over the year, I just don't get his playcalling.

[Talkingbirds]

We’re this close !

 

[birdman#12]

13 minutes ago, PoconoDon said:

The lack of a premiere QB prospect is another reason why I'm on the Stingley Jr. train. At least they can get a top CB prospect while still acquiring assets for the following year's draft. I think this latest rebuild is at best, going to be 4 more off seasons, and that's if a few things break right for this team. 

Getting a "premier QB" prospect doesn't mean sh-- if they don't know how to develop one.  And to throw the towel in on Hurts is really ridiculous right now.  How many "premier QB" orospects have been drafted over the last 5 years and haven't turned into "premier QBs"?  

Philly media and fans don't have the patience for a "premier QB" to develop.....

[birdman#12]

I'd really like to know what you guys see from Hurts that make you say "I don't think he's the long term answer".........

 

[Procus]

This team needs a complete tear down and rebuild.  Don't get rid of Siri for the sake of doing so, wait until the right guy becomes available.  Then clean house from top to bottom.  This is a 2-3 year rebuild at this stage.

[PoconoDon]

10 minutes ago, birdman#12 said:

Getting a "premier QB" prospect doesn't mean sh-- if they don't know how to develop one.  And to throw the towel in on Hurts is really ridiculous right now.  How many "premier QB" orospects have been drafted over the last 5 years and haven't turned into "premier QBs"?  

Philly media and fans don't have the patience for a "premier QB" to develop.....

Of course  the fans and media have the necessary patience. They just want to see the building blocks with their own eyes and not have to be told they are there hidden behind some nuanced excuse for why they're not self evident. Everyone waited 5 years for Wentz. Why? because he had the basic physical tools to become a premiere QB in the NFL. As it turns out he was missing other things. Some of what he was missing is also missing from Hurts, like the requisite extreme accuracy you want in your long term QB. 

You're right that not all can or will develop into a premiere QB. All I'm saying is that when you need a long term franchise QB, don't compromise on the basic building blocks because if you do, you've already defeated yourself before you've begun. IMO, Hurts looks like he is missing some basic building blocks. 

[time2rock]

5 hours ago, birdman#12 said:

Hurts is actually developing nicely in my opinion, while not getting much help from Sirianni in the play calling.  Again the eagles are asking a very young QB to throw the ball 40+ times a game, which has been completely unnecessary, especially with the quality of RBs this team has.  Hurts has made some mistakes, but he isn't the guy committing the stupid penalties that have cost the eagles quite a few TDs.  The mistakes Hurts has made are FIXABLE issues given enough time and patience.

To criticize Hurts as "not the long term answer" at this point is really stupid and shortsighted.....he obviously has some areas to improve, but those areas are going to glare a little more when he's being asked to throw the ball 40+ times a game.  If Sirianni would use Sanders, Gainwell, Scott AND Jordan Howard 25-30 times a game, the eagles would be cranking out 150 yards a game on the ground and taking a lot of pressure off of Hurts.

Hurts could develop into a hell of a QB if he's given the chance and the coaching/game plan support.  But philly media and fans are already throwing in the towel, so typical and clueless. 

Sirianni on the other hand, is baffling with his resistance to run the ball.....when he was hired, I heard so much about how he'll run the ball which turns out to be bullsh--.  Unless he's been told by the front office to make Hurts throw as much as possible so they can evaluate him over the year, I just don't get his playcalling.

I'm open minded on Hurts.  I don't think anyone can say he isn't the answer with 100% certainty at this point ... it is still waaaaaaaaaaay to early in his career/development to make that kind of judgement.  Does he have issues right now?  Sure.  As do a lot of young QBs.  Can they be fixed?  Time will tell.  I am in complete wait and see mode with him.  It would be absolutely huge for this team if he does prove to be the long term answer ... that way we could use all those high draft picks to fortify the roster with elite talent at other positions.  I think we have time to find out for sure, even if that goes into next year.  

[birdman#12]

5 hours ago, PoconoDon said:

Of course  the fans and media have the necessary patience. They just want to see the building blocks with their own eyes and not have to be told they are there hidden behind some nuanced excuse for why they're not self evident. Everyone waited 5 years for Wentz. Why? because he had the basic physical tools to become a premiere QB in the NFL. As it turns out he was missing other things. Some of what he was missing is also missing from Hurts, like the requisite extreme accuracy you want in your long term QB. 

You're right that not all can or will develop into a premiere QB. All I'm saying is that when you need a long term franchise QB, don't compromise on the basic building blocks because if you do, you've already defeated yourself before you've begun. IMO, Hurts looks like he is missing some basic building blocks. 

Sometimes those "building blocks" are not self evident.....that's why players have to be developed.  Very few QBs come into the NFL fully rounded and even then, go thru a pretty tough learning curve.  

There is NO WAY to determine how much a QB will or will not develop while being evaluated to draft.  If it was that easy, there would be no missed picks.  Russell Wilson and Tom Brady would have been selected sooner.  And it's not some hidden issue that nuanced excuses are thrown around.  Wentz has an injury issue. He also is stubborn when it comes to learning not to try and do too much.  Nobody saw that as a problem.....they saw it as being very competitive.  But that eventually led to him being injured too much and abandoning his fundamentals and causing his huge dropoff.

I don't know what you think is missing with Hurts.  And I sure don't know how you came to that conclusion after 8 games.  

 

[birdman#12]

5 hours ago, time2rock said:

I'm open minded on Hurts.  I don't think anyone can say he isn't the answer with 100% certainty at this point ... it is still waaaaaaaaaaay to early in his career/development to make that kind of judgement.  Does he have issues right now?  Sure.  As do a lot of young QBs.  Can they be fixed?  Time will tell.  I am in complete wait and see mode with him.  It would be absolutely huge for this team if he does prove to be the long term answer ... that way we could use all those high draft picks to fortify the roster with elite talent at other positions.  I think we have time to find out for sure, even if that goes into next year.  

Young QBs ALWAYS try to do too much.....they got away with it in college and it takes awhile to get it out of their heads.  And we all should be in a wait and see mode.....unfortunately, the NFL is not patient with young QBs.....and it chews them up at a ridiculous rate. 

What I've seen from Hurts is fixable.....other things haven't shown themselves yet and he may never get that chance.  But it's not like throwing a switch or him watching a video....it can take game after game to cure an issue.

It seems that everybody is forgetting that he got very little time in preseason games, not familiar with some of the receivers and backs, and is new in Sirianni's system.  He's been with Sirianni a few months and few regular season games.  What QB drafted in the first dozen picks this year is tearing it up?  In the last 2 years, it's been Herbert.  Burrow has played pretty well. That's it.....the rest have been a work in progress.

I think we all need to sit back and watch Hurts play this difficult schedule, see how he handles pressure, coming from behind, if he gets better in the red zone, how he goes thru his progression or if he gets happy feet too much.....whether his accuracy can improve with becoming more familiar with his receivers and be more accurate with deep balls.

A lot to evaluate......and he may look like an all pro one week and struggle the next.......typical young QB stuff.......another key to his development...consistency.

[PoconoDon]

14 minutes ago, birdman#12 said:

Sometimes those "building blocks" are not self evident.....that's why players have to be developed.  Very few QBs come into the NFL fully rounded and even then, go thru a pretty tough learning curve.  

There is NO WAY to determine how much a QB will or will not develop while being evaluated to draft.  If it was that easy, there would be no missed picks.  Russell Wilson and Tom Brady would have been selected sooner.  And it's not some hidden issue that nuanced excuses are thrown around.  Wentz has an injury issue. He also is stubborn when it comes to learning not to try and do too much.  Nobody saw that as a problem.....they saw it as being very competitive.  But that eventually led to him being injured too much and abandoning his fundamentals and causing his huge dropoff.

I don't know what you think is missing with Hurts.  And I sure don't know how you came to that conclusion after 8 games.  

 

Accuracy is #1. Maybe he is inaccurate because he's still catching up to the NFL game and once his processing speed is there, he'll be better. Maybe he's just not a pinpoint passer. We don't know for sure yet which it is, but to my eye the issue is there. When receivers have to make great catches because the ball is too far behind, in front, over, or short of where it should be, it's a sign that something isn't right.So, is it fixable? Maybe. We'll know by the end of the year. That's my concern. Accuracy.

[birdman#12]

18 hours ago, PoconoDon said:

Accuracy is #1. Maybe he is inaccurate because he's still catching up to the NFL game and once his processing speed is there, he'll be better. Maybe he's just not a pinpoint passer. We don't know for sure yet which it is, but to my eye the issue is there. When receivers have to make great catches because the ball is too far behind, in front, over, or short of where it should be, it's a sign that something isn't right.So, is it fixable? Maybe. We'll know by the end of the year. That's my concern. Accuracy.

Legitimate concern.  He has missed some big plays and the receivers had to break stride or adjust on other throws.  

Accuracy is a fixable issue most of the time......familiarity and timing are underrated necessities for the passing game.  And Hurts had very little preseason reps with the receivers and this offense.  We will be able to tell as the year plays on.

[Procus]

If you ask me, they're both a problem.  I think they're good guys who can win games in the NFL, but I don't think they'll put you over the top - right now they are both considerably below average.  Both have a lot of NFL growing up to do.

[UK_EaglesFan89]

56 minutes ago, Procus said:

If you ask me, they're both a problem.  I think they're good guys who can win games in the NFL, but I don't think they'll put you over the top - right now they are both considerably below average.  Both have a lot of NFL growing up to do.

It is still way too early to tell. At this point in 4 games I think it has been a mixed bag. The good has been very good, the bad has been very bad.