On 12/24/2021 at 11:30 AM, Abracadabra said:

Manchin is just the patsy. The US, INC. is bankrupt and doesn't have a contract. Access to American credit has been cut off. The Pope will have to finance BBB from his own coffers. 

This is a parody, right? Like that Tatiana dude on Twitter that the trumpbots always post here?

6 minutes ago, Dave Moss said:

Sure he did.  He said he wouldn't support it so everyone pretty much shrugged their shoulders and decided it wouldn't pass.  By the way, this isn't a unique viewpoint.  You can find a number of journalists who say the same thing I am.

You do agree his vote isn't technically worth more than any other Senator's vote, right?

10 minutes ago, Phillyterp85 said:

I never claimed you were the only one holding this incorrect view 🙂

Again, being the one person in the party willing to vote against what the party leadership wants on one bill doesn't translate to having power.  Again, where was all this talk of his power during the infrastructure bill vote?  What, did his power magically vanish and then reappear all in a matter of weeks?   That's not how power works....

If you were to tell me that he's planning to vote no, and because he's voting no that 5 other senators are following his lead and voting no.  And then if he changes his mind to vote yes and those 5 other senators also change their mind to vote yes to follow his lead.  THAT'S what power in the senate looks like. 

Manchin is so powerful he didn’t even need a coalition to kill BBB.

17 minutes ago, DrPhilly said:

You do agree his vote isn't technically worth more than any other Senator's vote, right?

@Dave Moss  ??

12 minutes ago, Dave Moss said:

Manchin is so powerful he didn’t even need a coalition to kill BBB.

lol so basically what you're saying is, if there were 50 other democratic senators voting in lock step with party leadership instead of 49, he'd be completely powerless.    That's not how power works...

In this case, you could sub out Manchin's name for any other Democrat senator and say OMG LOOK AT THEM THEY HAVE SO MUCH POWER . 

But yes, Manchin is the all-powerful Democrat God senator that singlehandedly killed BBB.  Even though 50 other senators shot it down too. 

The internet is so much fun sometimes. 

 

42 minutes ago, hukdonfoniks said:

In this case, you could sub out Manchin's name for any other Democrat senator and say OMG LOOK AT THEM THEY HAVE SO MUCH POWER . 

But yes, Manchin is the all-powerful Democrat God senator that singlehandedly killed BBB.  Even though 50 other senators shot it down too. 

The internet is so much fun sometimes. 

 

It would be amazing to see you actually stumble into a lucid thought.

Manchin has a lot of "power" right now because he's a swing vote.

If the Dems had 52 or so senators his power would be diminished. Though it's certain possible he could still flex some political muscle. But his leverage would be diminished.

His current leverage won't last forever. It probably won't even last another year, one way or the other.

But he's certain put his imprint on Biden's first two years.

2 minutes ago, JohnSnowsHair said:

Manchin has a lot of "power" right now because he's a swing vote.

If the Dems had 52 or so senators his power would be diminished. Though it's certain possible he could still flex some political muscle. But his leverage would be diminished.

His current leverage won't last forever. It probably won't even last another year, one way or the other.

But he's certain put his imprint on Biden's first two years.

Yeah, he and Sinema can flex for another 12 months.  Who knows what’s going to happen in November.

2 hours ago, DrPhilly said:

I understand what you are saying but he doesn't have the traditional power of influence over other votes that you'd typically find in a powerful Senator.  His power is built on a special context which is going to end in less than a year after which he'll have no more power than his single vote out of 100.  It is a very temporary situation.

I'd like to see how he votes if the Dems eliminate the filibuster for the voting rights bill

15 hours ago, JohnSnowsHair said:

Manchin has a lot of "power" right now because he's a swing vote.

If the Dems had 52 or so senators his power would be diminished. Though it's certain possible he could still flex some political muscle. But his leverage would be diminished.

His current leverage won't last forever. It probably won't even last another year, one way or the other.

But he's certain put his imprint on Biden's first two years.

What makes him a "swing vote"?   Check his voting record.   He's votes along party lines on pretty much every single bill and amendment that comes up.  https://www.manchin.senate.gov/about/voting-record.     Are you saying that not voting along party lines on about 1 out of every 250+ votes makes him a "swing vote"? I'd bet good money that there are other democrat senators who've voted against party lines more than him.  

 

17 hours ago, Dave Moss said:

I don't care if it's typical or not.  Was Barack Obama your typically powerful Senator?  I'd argue no.  Not compared to McCain or Dole.

Maybe the Dems should have more progressive senators to counteract Manchin's amazing moderate powers

17 hours ago, DrPhilly said:

You do agree his vote isn't technically worth more than any other Senator's vote, right?

He has one vote, but its a moderate vote so thats worth like, 10 votes.

 

  

16 hours ago, hukdonfoniks said:

But yes, Manchin is the all-powerful Democrat God senator that singlehandedly killed BBB.  

Underneath his suit he wears a cape and spandex with this logo on his chest:

1 hour ago, Phillyterp85 said:

What makes him a "swing vote"?   Check his voting record.   He's votes along party lines on pretty much every single bill and amendment that comes up.  https://www.manchin.senate.gov/about/voting-record.     Are you saying that not voting along party lines on about 1 out of every 250+ votes makes him a "swing vote"? I'd bet good money that there are other democrat senators who've voted against party lines more than him.  

 

The math does. Final votes aren't all that matter - he wields outsized power as the most conservative democrat when it comes to shaping the legislation that actually gets voted on.

I'm not complaining that he has this power. I'm actually happy he does.

My point though was that it's the math that, for this cycle, makes him especially powerful as a senator.

2 hours ago, JohnSnowsHair said:

The math does. Final votes aren't all that matter - he wields outsized power as the most conservative democrat when it comes to shaping the legislation that actually gets voted on.

I'm not complaining that he has this power. I'm actually happy he does.

My point though was that it's the math that, for this cycle, makes him especially powerful as a senator.

But that math doesn’t show that.  The math shows that he votes along party lines like 99.5%+ of the time.  In no way does that make him a "swing vote”.   He doesn’t have power.  Again, Voting "no” one time doesn’t mean a senator has power.   If he had power, he’d be able to get other senators to follow his vote lead.  He doesn’t.  He yields no more or less power than every other non influential senator in the senate.

power doesn’t magically disappear and then reappear based on what other people do.  That’s not how power and influence works.  
 

Things I have learned in this thread

* The Democrats have not become the party of far left wing politics, its just a few randos.

* The reason a bill chock full of far left wing polices got shut down is because of a single moderate.

1 hour ago, Phillyterp85 said:

But that math doesn’t show that.  The math shows that he votes along party lines like 99.5%+ of the time.  In no way does that make him a "swing vote”.   He doesn’t have power.  Again, Voting "no” one time doesn’t mean a senator has power.   If he had power, he’d be able to get other senators to follow his vote lead.  He doesn’t.  He yields no more or less power than every other non influential senator in the senate.

power doesn’t magically disappear and then reappear based on what other people do.  That’s not how power and influence works.  
 

You’re acting like there’s only one way political power can ever be exerted.  That’s silly.

23 minutes ago, Dave Moss said:

You’re acting like there’s only one way political power can ever be exerted.  That’s silly.

I never claimed that there’s only one way political power can be exerted.  We are currently in a discussion about senate votes, so yes in that regard there really is only one way in which political power can be exerted.  Every senator has 1 vote.  So in a discussion about voting, the only way to measure political power is to measure whether or not that senator can influence other people’s votes in which case his ONE vote influences other peoples votes.  
So unless you’re telling me that Manchin is such an influential senator that he can get other people to follow his vote lead, then no, he doesn’t have anymore power than every other non influential senator has with their 1 vote.

Him voting "no” on 0.05% of the bills that you want him to vote yes on doesn’t equate to him having power.  

50 Senators are forced to vote as Trump sheep and 48 are forced to vote as AOC sheep. 1 swings both ways. 1 has all the power. 
 

Moss rules of Senate power. 

John Snow politely explained it to you guys.  
Whatever, I’m done here.

4 hours ago, JohnSnowsHair said:

The math does. Final votes aren't all that matter - he wields outsized power as the most conservative democrat when it comes to shaping the legislation that actually gets voted on.

I'm not complaining that he has this power. I'm actually happy he does.

My point though was that it's the math that, for this cycle, makes him especially powerful as a senator.

That applies to a couple of high profile issues that are in front of this Congress where he happens to be on a tie breaking island all by himself or with one or two others. There is always a level of negotiation in these things in any case. One thing to consider as well is that he has no power to drive his own policy agenda. He can only influence or ultimately block others’ policy suggestions. He has a quite narrow and targeted power and it is very temporary. 

2 hours ago, paco said:

Things I have learned in this thread

* The Democrats have not become the party of far left wing politics, its just a few randos.

* The reason a bill chock full of far left wing polices got shut down is because of a single moderate.

What's considered a far left policy? I'm just making conversation. I haven't read the bill. My understanding is that Manchin is pro coal and has a personal financial interest in shutting down anything that restricts the burning of coal. That's pretty much the only reason he voted it down from what I can see. (I don't believe for a second that a single sitting senator or congressman/woman from either party actually cares about debt and deficit so not buying that part). 

21 minutes ago, Gannan said:

What's considered a far left policy? I'm just making conversation. I haven't read the bill. My understanding is that Manchin is pro coal and has a personal financial interest in shutting down anything that restricts the burning of coal. That's pretty much the only reason he voted it down from what I can see. (I don't believe for a second that a single sitting senator or congressman/woman from either party actually cares about debt and deficit so not buying that part). 

Yeah, my impression is that he was against the money for climate change because he represents West Virginia.

53 minutes ago, Gannan said:

What's considered a far left policy? I'm just making conversation. I haven't read the bill. My understanding is that Manchin is pro coal and has a personal financial interest in shutting down anything that restricts the burning of coal. That's pretty much the only reason he voted it down from what I can see. (I don't believe for a second that a single sitting senator or congressman/woman from either party actually cares about debt and deficit so not buying that part). 

The page for it on the white houses website is a nice bullet point list.  Tell me which ones don't strike you as particularly leftist or sound like talking points coming out of AOC\Bernie\Warren\and the one other rando's mouth

 

• Offers universal and free preschool for all 3- and 4-year-olds, the largest expansion of universal and free education since states and communities across the country established public high school 100 years ago.
• Makes the largest investment in child care in the nation’s history, saving most American families more than half of their spending on child care.
• Delivers affordable, high-quality care for older Americans and people with disabilities in their homes, while supporting the workers who provide this care.
• Provides 39 million households up to $3,600 (or $300 per month) in tax cuts per child by extending the American Rescue Plan’s expanded Child Tax Credit.
• Delivers substantial consumer rebates and tax credits to reduce costs for middle class families shifting to clean energy and electrification.
• Ensures clean energy technology – from wind turbine blades to solar panels to electric cars – will be built in the United States with American made steel and other materials, creating hundreds of thousands of good jobs here at home.
• Advances environmental justice through a new Clean Energy and Sustainability Accelerator that will invest in projects around the country, while delivering 40% of the benefits of investment to disadvantaged communities, as part of the President’s Justice40 initiative.
• Bolsters resilience and natural solutions to climate change through a historic investment in coastal restoration, forest management, and soil conservation.
• Reduces prescription drug costs.
• Strengthens the Affordable Care Act and reduces premiums for 9 Million Americans.
• Closes the Medicaid Coverage Gap, Leading 4 Million Uninsured People to Gain Coverage.
• Expands Medicare to cover hearing benefits.  
• Makes the single largest and most comprehensive investment in affordable housing in history.
• Extends the expanded Earned Income Tax Credit (EITC) for around 17 million low-wage workers.
• Expands access to affordable, high-quality education beyond high school.
• Promotes nutrition security to support children’s health.
• Strengthens the middle class through a historic investment in equity, safety, and fairness.
• Invests in immigration reform.
• Stops large, profitable corporations from paying zero in tax and tax corporations that buyback stock rather than invest in the company.
• Stops rewarding corporations for shipping jobs and profits overseas.
• Asks the highest income Americans to pay their fair share.
• Invests in enforcing our existing tax laws, so the wealthy pay what they owe.

Let me guess, the peanut gallery is going to focus on the benign ones like "Expands Medicare to cover hearing benefits" and ignore the overall bill.

Also "Advances environmental justice" might be my favorite 3 word phrase in that whole list   🤡