May 20, 20214 yr 17 hours ago, ilross2003 said: I want to apologize for this one, I shouldn't have said it. I have no doubt that you are well educated person. Keep your doubts...
May 20, 20214 yr 17 hours ago, VanHammersly said: We can say anything they want to Hamas (and we have plenty of times), but they're not going to listen. Meanwhile, we hold some purse strings for Israel, so we have a more captive audience. We have no interest in giving Hamas any advantage well you might...
May 20, 20214 yr Just checking in, has CVON solved one of the most complex and intractable international conflicts of our lifetime yet? We need y'all to wrap it up soon so we can move on to figuring out if the world is flat or not.
May 20, 20214 yr 3 minutes ago, DEagle7 said: Just checking in, has CVON solved one of the most complex and intractable international conflicts of our lifetime yet? We need y'all to wrap it up soon so we can move on to figuring out if the world is flat or not. Jared Kushner solved it years ago. #OTTNO
May 20, 20214 yr 39 minutes ago, ToastJenkins said: Keep your doubts... And I'll keep my doubts that you actually support self government, given your desire to equivocate about the events of January 6.
May 20, 20214 yr 14 hours ago, EaglesRocker97 said: I have thought about exactly this, and let me say that you might be right. Our country has an unfortunate history of treating civilian populations brutally under the guise of "collateral damage," even when our sovereignty and territorial integrity is not under threat. I do not support this and wish history was otherwise. What happened in Vietnam is shameful, and when I think about our actions in Iraq and Afghanistan, a great deal of disgust arises from the fact that our military has been directly responsible for the deaths of civilians numbering in the hundreds of thousands. I try my best to be consistent; I find tactics involving mass casualties to civilian populations to be disturbing in all but the most extreme circumstances, but Israel is certainly in a more dire national security situation that the U.S. has known in the last 150 years. I understand your position. I just want to raise another perspective. There’s no doubt that any kind of intentional killing of an unarmed people is a terrible crime. Still, in any war there are situations that may very well look like war crimes (and maybe they are) but in reality it is much more complicated. Suppose you are a squad leader. Your squad has engaged with an enemy and lost two men, guys that you have just eaten breakfast with them this morning. Your enemies are hiding in the civilian’s house. What’s your decision? Do you enter the house risking your life and lives of your friends but save the civilians? Or do you blow up the house killing your enemies with the civilians inside, but your friends are safe? Of course, if you do the latest – you will be presented as war criminal, because the media shows only the results, they don’t care about the staff you went through. What would you do? Or you are a military pilot. You see the enemy that is prepared to launch a rocket targeting your civilians. There are some kids near enemy’s location. What do you do? Do you hit the enemy with high risk of those children being killed or do you abort and there is a risk that the rocket may kill some children on your side? Your children or theirs? Terrible, unfair question… But this is a reality. Not only in our conflict, in any war. If your own house (God forbid) is under consistent fire, would you prefer your government to be engaged in the long campaign, minimizing the civilian casualties on the opposite side but risking your life on a daily basis, or would you prefer to wipe out the opponent with all his population in one day while securing your own family?
May 20, 20214 yr 38 minutes ago, ToastJenkins said: Keep your doubts... See, I know that me and EaglesRocker97 have a very different positions in many aspects, but it still does not give me a right to attack him personally. I did it, so I've apologized. We can agree or disagree, being biased or not, but he strikes me as a highly educated person.
May 20, 20214 yr 14 minutes ago, ilross2003 said: I understand your position. I just want to raise another perspective. There’s no doubt that any kind of intentional killing of an unarmed people is a terrible crime. Still, in any war there are situations that may very well look like war crimes (and maybe they are) but in reality it is much more complicated. Suppose you are a squad leader. Your squad has engaged with an enemy and lost two men, guys that you have just eaten breakfast with them this morning. Your enemies are hiding in the civilian’s house. What’s your decision? Do you enter the house risking your life and lives of your friends but save the civilians? Or do you blow up the house killing your enemies with the civilians inside, but your friends are safe? Of course, if you do the latest – you will be presented as war criminal, because the media shows only the results, they don’t care about the staff you went through. What would you do? Or you are a military pilot. You see the enemy that is prepared to launch a rocket targeting your civilians. There are some kids near enemy’s location. What do you do? Do you hit the enemy with high risk of those children being killed or do you abort and there is a risk that the rocket may kill some children on your side? Your children or theirs? Terrible, unfair question… But this is a reality. Not only in our conflict, in any war. If your own house (God forbid) is under consistent fire, would you prefer your government to be engaged in the long campaign, minimizing the civilian casualties on the opposite side but risking your life on a daily basis, or would you prefer to wipe out the opponent with all his population in one day while securing your own family? You make fair points, and perhaps I come across as too hard line one way or another. In the bolded part, you raise a point about the reality of war that most seem to miss. It makes me think of the decision to nuke Japan at the end of World War II. I consistently push back against leftists who decry this action. Aside from the fact that it was literally total war at that stage and anything was fair game, it has essentially been proven that dropping the bombs saved both American and Japanese lives numbering in the hundreds of thousands or even millions. A prolonged campaign to defeat Japan would've involved an amphibious invasion of the Japanese mainland, followed by a brutal land war and an air campaign with hand-to-hand combat until every major village was captured and every industrial city was firebombed and leveled. There is certainly a point where you can make the case for acute aggression and brutality as a necessary evil to avoid a protracted struggle that would ultimately cause greater misery and many times more casualties.
May 20, 20214 yr 22 minutes ago, EaglesRocker97 said: And I'll keep my doubts that you actually support self government, given your desire to equivocate about the events of January 6. They weren't even being violent
May 20, 20214 yr 2 minutes ago, we_gotta_believe said: They weren't even being violent Nope, just meandering.
May 20, 20214 yr 42 minutes ago, ilross2003 said: See, I know that me and EaglesRocker97 have a very different positions in many aspects, but it still does not give me a right to attack him personally. I did it, so I've apologized. We can agree or disagree, being biased or not, but he strikes me as a highly educated person. eh, challenging an opponents credibility on a particular subject isn't the same as an ad hominem. its fair to question it. 52 minutes ago, EaglesRocker97 said: And I'll keep my doubts that you actually support self government, given your desire to equivocate about the events of January 6. see? strawmen from the poorly educated. dont worry, Trump loves you
May 20, 20214 yr because of your poor education, it would seem point being dont fall into wgb's stupid pattern of behavior. you can and should be better than that.
May 20, 20214 yr TJ misappropriates logical fallacies like it's his job. Keep trying, buddy—I admire your effort
May 20, 20214 yr 40 minutes ago, ToastJenkins said: dont worry, Trump loves you I love Trump as well, he was the most pro - Israeli president ever. But he lost... As much as I wanted him to be reelected, I have to accept the reality and move on...
May 20, 20214 yr Just now, ilross2003 said: I love Trump as well, he was the most pro - Israeli president ever. But he lost... As much as I wanted him to be reelected, I have to accept the reality and move on... it was a joke referring to Trump's "I love the poorly educated" line. i didnt vote for trump either time. he was a mess, but useful in filling the SC spots for the good side. 8 minutes ago, EaglesRocker97 said: TJ misappropriates logical fallacies like it's his job. Keep trying, buddy—I admire your effort which logical fallacy is that?
May 20, 20214 yr 2 hours ago, ToastJenkins said: We have no interest in giving Hamas any advantage well you might... Hamas has no advantages in this situation, except their relative anonymity. They're vastly outgunned in every sense of the word. Nothing anyone says changes that. But I could care less either way. Back Israel, give them the green light to steamroll the region, back Hamas, cut off aid to Israel, either way, doesn't matter to me. As long as we keep boots out of there, I'm fine with it.
May 20, 20214 yr 5 minutes ago, ilross2003 said: I love Trump as well, he was the most pro - Israeli president ever. But he lost... As much as I wanted him to be reelected, I have to accept the reality and move on... You guys can have him. See how much you like him when he represents your country.
May 20, 20214 yr 14 minutes ago, ToastJenkins said: which logical fallacy is that? Probably all of them at one point or another, but we'll just go with the most recent one. Yes, the January 6th insurrection is nothing more than a strawman.
May 20, 20214 yr 15 minutes ago, VanHammersly said: Hamas has no advantages in this situation, except their relative anonymity. They're vastly outgunned in every sense of the word. Nothing anyone says changes that. But I could care less either way. Back Israel, give them the green light to steamroll the region, back Hamas, cut off aid to Israel, either way, doesn't matter to me. As long as we keep boots out of there, I'm fine with it. I basically agree with all of this, but as to the bolded part, the most measured way I could put what I'm trying to say is that Hamas is human trash and has no justification for firing rockets into civilian areas, but the use of force is highly asymmetrical.
May 20, 20214 yr 36 minutes ago, ilross2003 said: I love Trump as well, he was the most pro - Israeli president ever. But he lost... As much as I wanted him to be reelected, I have to accept the reality and move on... I hate Trump but agree with you about his Israeli Policies. AOC and Talib are pressuring Biden to hold up on the funds to Israel and to use it as a bargaining tool to get a cease fire. That makes me mad. I was mad when Bob Dole tried the same thing. I guess AOC and Talib don't care that Hamas launches thousands of rockets at Israel, they want Israel just to let it happen and do nothing in response. Weak.
May 20, 20214 yr 10 minutes ago, jsdarkstar said: I hate Trump but agree with you about his Israeli Policies. AOC and Talib are pressuring Biden to hold up on the funds to Israel and to use it as a bargaining tool to get a cease fire. That makes me mad. I was made when Bob Dole tried the same thing. I guess AOC and Talib don't care that Hamas launches thousands of rockets at Israel, they want Israel just to let it happen and do nothing in response. Weak. I was pleasantly surprised though when Biden gave us a relatively long leash to proceed with the current operation.
May 20, 20214 yr 44 minutes ago, EaglesRocker97 said: Probably all of them at one point or another, but we'll just go with the most recent one. Yes, the January 6th insurrection is nothing more than a strawman. you dont seem to understand how these fallacies work A form of argument and an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent's argument, while actually refuting an argument that was not presented by that opponent
May 20, 20214 yr 25 minutes ago, ToastJenkins said: you dont seem to understand how these fallacies work You went after my credibility, so it is relevant to bring up your position on that topic, since it shows where your biases lie here.
May 20, 20214 yr I see that Trump is not the most liked person here. I certainly do not have enough knowledge about his presidency, except about his Israeli Policies. I haven't read enough about it to form my own opinion. I'd be very interested to learn about his presidency from the perspective of the US citizens. What were his most glaring issues? Which positives did he have?
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