Howie can talk all he wants about how he wanted Wilson. He didn’t learn from his mistakes as he’s continued to let teams jump ahead of him and draft the guys he wanted. 

On 5/6/2020 at 1:02 AM, MagicMoment said:

To be fair, Russell should have at least two rings if not for Pete Carroll's idiotic goal line call. Foles is a Philly legend but I'm taking Russ all day every day. 

Just curious, who threw that int?

5 hours ago, greend said:

Just curious, who threw that int?

What does that have to do with the play call? Russell threw the ball but it was a play setup by the coach. This is a known fact. 

2 hours ago, MagicMoment said:

What does that have to do with the play call? Russell threw the ball but it was a play setup by the coach. This is a known fact. 

Psst He doesn't deserve the 2nd ring if he can't be counted on to win the game. The coach obviously didn't call an interception  

11 minutes ago, greend said:

Psst He doesn't deserve the 2nd ring if he can't be counted on to win the game. The coach obviously didn't call an interception  

You're obviously blinded by hatred of the QB. The play call was a quick slant to the end zone, there was no decision to be made it was strictly a "cute" play call by Pete Carroll. 

I would ask how you are not understanding this but I answered the question in my first sentence.  

4 minutes ago, MagicMoment said:

You're obviously blinded by hatred of the QB. The play call was a quick slant to the end zone, there was no decision to be made it was strictly a "cute" play call by Pete Carroll. 

I would ask how you are not understanding this but I answered the question in my first sentence.  

🤣 okay bro whatever

On 5/5/2020 at 10:02 PM, MagicMoment said:

To be fair, Russell should have at least two rings if not for Pete Carroll's idiotic goal line call. Foles is a Philly legend but I'm taking Russ all day every day. 

Would you still say that if Reid was still here after 2012 and still not have a Super Bowl?

7 minutes ago, gameshowfan91 said:

Would you still say that if Reid was still here after 2012 and still not have a Super Bowl?

Russ is a much better QB than Foles. He'd have us competitive every year and could well of given us a SB or two. 

1 minute ago, UK_EaglesFan89 said:

Russ is a much better QB than Foles. He'd have us competitive every year and could well of given us a SB or two. 

With Reid as head coach? Reid was here for 14 seasons and no Super Bowl. 

43 minutes ago, gameshowfan91 said:

With Reid as head coach? Reid was here for 14 seasons and no Super Bowl. 

Won one last year. Finally. 

2 hours ago, gameshowfan91 said:

Would you still say that if Reid was still here after 2012 and still not have a Super Bowl?

No. I'm not seeing the point of the question. 

On 5/4/2020 at 10:34 PM, Jordan629 said:

"In 2012, we had a vision,” Roseman said. "We had a vision that we would draft a quarterback who’s been extremely successful, and I don’t want tampering charges on me but I think we can understand who that was, and then come back in the fourth round and draft a quarterback who won a world championship for us and go back-to-back. And I feel like we got a little cute. And I don’t know that there’s a big difference between taking the 53rd pick in the draft and taking a pick in the third round if you feel strongly about a guy”

For those of you that don’t know, this topic has come up again. If they wanted Russ so badly, why did they wait until the 3rd only to see him get drafted before their pick? Eagles selected Foles at 88, Wilson went 75. If they wanted Wilson SO badly, how much would a trade up in the 3rd have cost? This is why I’m sick of hearing so much about it still. If they really based their draft on a QB in the 3rd round then they didn’t want him THAT badly. They had two 2 rounders that year. If you liked Wilson that bad, I don’t see how you valued Curry or Kendricks over him. It just seems like revisionist BS to me.

Thank you.        Felt the same way hearing Roseman doing somersaults to rationalize the Hurts pick over and over.

Funniest thing to me is Roseman advertising the fact that the Eagles were once again trying to be the smartest guys in the room, only he uses the word 'cute'.          I don't care one way or the other about not picking Wilson that year, but it is painful to think of the number of obvious picks the Eagles passed up over the last 20 years trying to outsmart everyone else.

On 5/5/2020 at 2:37 AM, VaBeach_Eagle said:

Honestly, I'm glad things worked out how they did. Do we win a Super Bowl with Wilson? I don't know. I think Andy sticks around for a longer period and possibly is still with us, if we take Wilson in 2012.

I'm satisfied with how things worked out though.

For that reason alone I thank the good Lord it didn't happen.

59 minutes ago, mjkvol said:

Thank you.        Felt the same way hearing Roseman doing somersaults to rationalize the Hurts pick over and over.

Funniest thing to me is Roseman advertising the fact that the Eagles were once again trying to be the smartest guys in the room, only he uses the word 'cute'.          I don't care one way or the other about not picking Wilson that year, but it is painful to think of the number of obvious picks the Eagles passed up over the last 20 years trying to outsmart everyone else.

Help me understand the narrative that Howie tries to "outsmart" everyone else.  I'm not sure what that means anymore because it gets thrown around so much.

You know I don't think Howie has any business being in charge of the draft, that he's not a talent evaluator.  I think he needs to let the personnel team build the board and scout the players and he can be the figurehead to make the selections, or be Joe Banner type in the office but not have say over talent.

However, I do think he wants to get the best players.  The way people make it out, Howie sits back and purposely doesn't take talent like a contrarian and thinks that he alone has a better way of selecting players.

He's also had different influences from Reid to Chip to Joe Douglas and you can see their imprint on who they selected, that it was a team approach not just Howie.

Reagor wasn't a pick trying to outsmart anyone.  Hurts is controversial, but the rest of the picks in this draft all made sense, none seemed like reaches and they added several WRs, S, LB and O lineman filling needs at those positions and depth.  

Last year Dillard was supposed to go higher, Sanders wasn't an "outsmart people" pick he took a talented RB at a need position.  JJAW is debatable of course but there were people who liked that pick.  Goedert was a BPA type pick, talented player not a reach or anything.  That year they didn't have many picks from trades but they made decent picks in the 4th, 6th and 7th rounds.  Barnett was a Joe Douglas influence pick and they went with another BPA, no one called it a reach.  Jones at the time was considered a 1st round talent who fell and people were excited.  I actually hated that draft but you really saw Joe Douglas' influence.

The year prior of course was Wentz, then taking a starting LG in the 3rd isn't a reach or "outsmarting" anyone, getting O line depth and getting a starting corner in the 7th.  

I just don't see a lot of examples of Howie thinking he's smarter than other GMs.  I just see them taking players they think are good for the scheme and trying to fit what the coaches want.  The Marcus Smith pick Howie took blame for.  Chip wanted Jordan Matthews in the 1st and Howie (correctly) said he'd be available in the 2nd.  He suggested they take the top pass rusher on their board because pass rushers won't be around later.  

Still, he's added good free agents, made mostly good trades and for all the failure picks there have been good ones as well.  I don't think Howie's trying to "outsmart" anyone I just think he's not a "football guy" to evaluate draft prospects.

 

7 hours ago, NOTW said:

Help me understand the narrative that Howie tries to "outsmart" everyone else.  I'm not sure what that means anymore because it gets thrown around so much.

You know I don't think Howie has any business being in charge of the draft, that he's not a talent evaluator.  I think he needs to let the personnel team build the board and scout the players and he can be the figurehead to make the selections, or be Joe Banner type in the office but not have say over talent.

However, I do think he wants to get the best players.  The way people make it out, Howie sits back and purposely doesn't take talent like a contrarian and thinks that he alone has a better way of selecting players.

He's also had different influences from Reid to Chip to Joe Douglas and you can see their imprint on who they selected, that it was a team approach not just Howie.

Reagor wasn't a pick trying to outsmart anyone.  Hurts is controversial, but the rest of the picks in this draft all made sense, none seemed like reaches and they added several WRs, S, LB and O lineman filling needs at those positions and depth.  

Last year Dillard was supposed to go higher, Sanders wasn't an "outsmart people" pick he took a talented RB at a need position.  JJAW is debatable of course but there were people who liked that pick.  Goedert was a BPA type pick, talented player not a reach or anything.  That year they didn't have many picks from trades but they made decent picks in the 4th, 6th and 7th rounds.  Barnett was a Joe Douglas influence pick and they went with another BPA, no one called it a reach.  Jones at the time was considered a 1st round talent who fell and people were excited.  I actually hated that draft but you really saw Joe Douglas' influence.

The year prior of course was Wentz, then taking a starting LG in the 3rd isn't a reach or "outsmarting" anyone, getting O line depth and getting a starting corner in the 7th.  

I just don't see a lot of examples of Howie thinking he's smarter than other GMs.  I just see them taking players they think are good for the scheme and trying to fit what the coaches want.  The Marcus Smith pick Howie took blame for.  Chip wanted Jordan Matthews in the 1st and Howie (correctly) said he'd be available in the 2nd.  He suggested they take the top pass rusher on their board because pass rushers won't be around later.  

Still, he's added good free agents, made mostly good trades and for all the failure picks there have been good ones as well.  I don't think Howie's trying to "outsmart" anyone I just think he's not a "football guy" to evaluate draft prospects.

 

By 'outsmarting', it usually refers to reaches and players who weren't on anyone's radar, and it sadly has generally reared its head in the early rounds.         Reid and Roseman have usually done well with what I call 'value' picks and signings, the later round picks that become decent to good players.        It's been an Eagles hallmark since Reid was here, finding those late round guys and UDFA's that make the team and contribute.         And Roseman has continued that trend.

But it's the early rounds where the real impact players are found, that we have see the most egregious examples.         And they do get it right occasionally, as with Cox pick.        But the Watkins, Graham, Whiteside, and Kolb picks are classic examples.         And the Hurts picks this year definitely fits.        You may not agree, but  it's just happened too often with the most important picks, and has cost us too many true difference makers over the years.

1 hour ago, mjkvol said:

By 'outsmarting', it usually refers to reaches and players who weren't on anyone's radar, and it sadly has generally reared its head in the early rounds.         Reid and Roseman have usually done well with what I call 'value' picks and signings, the later round picks that become decent to good players.        It's been an Eagles hallmark since Reid was here, finding those late round guys and UDFA's that make the team and contribute.         And Roseman has continued that trend.

But it's the early rounds where the real impact players are found, that we have see the most egregious examples.         And they do get it right occasionally, as with Cox pick.        But the Watkins, Graham, Whiteside, and Kolb picks are classic examples.         And the Hurts picks this year definitely fits.        You may not agree, but  it's just happened too often with the most important picks, and has cost us too many true difference makers over the years.

Ok.  So reaches or guys not on anyone's radar.  I'll focus on rounds 1 and 2 from this year back to 2012 when Howie was first involved in the draft.

2020: (Howie/Weidl) Reagor and Hurts weren't reaches, Hurts was just a shock because he's a QB but he would have been a 2nd rounder for someone else.
2019: (Howie/Douglas) Dillard fell to them, was expected to go higher.  Sanders was not a reach.  JJAW was I believe projected in the 2nd just a little later.
2018: (Howie/Douglas)Goedert wasn't a reach, he was about to be picked right after them by the Cowboys.  
2017: (Howie/Douglas)Barnett wasn't a reach, just a surprise since we needed corners in a deep corner class.  Jones was supposed to be a top 15 pick and fell due to injury and many people praised the pick.  
2016: (Howie) Wentz
2015: (all Chip) Agholor and Rowe I believe weren't considered reaches at the time were they?  I don't recall
2014: (Howie/Chip) Marcus Smith (reach that Howie took blame for), Jordan Matthews not a reach went when expected and WR was a need
2013: (Howie/Chip) Lane Johnson, Zach Ertz - star players, great picks, no reaches
2012: (Reid/Howie) Cox, Kendricks, Curry - star, solid player no reach, solid pick I don't recall Curry being considered a reach

So who on that list was a reach not on anyone's radar besides Marcus Smith and possibly JJAW?  And were those guys projected to be 1 or 2 rounds later?  Were they that much of a reach?

I'm not seeing Howie trying to "outsmart" anyone or players that weren't on "anyone's radar."  I think Howie tries to pick the players his personnel people and coaches want since they put the draft board together.  I don't see any evidence of this big conspiracy where the purposely picks players no one else would pick.  I think this phrase "outsmart everyone" is a false narrative that is easy to use but I don't see the evidence.

It'd be more accurate to just say Howie isn't a good drafter.  

On 5/8/2020 at 6:51 PM, NOTW said:

Ok.  So reaches or guys not on anyone's radar.  I'll focus on rounds 1 and 2 from this year back to 2012 when Howie was first involved in the draft.

2020: (Howie/Weidl) Reagor and Hurts weren't reaches, Hurts was just a shock because he's a QB but he would have been a 2nd rounder for someone else.
2019: (Howie/Douglas) Dillard fell to them, was expected to go higher.  Sanders was not a reach.  JJAW was I believe projected in the 2nd just a little later.
2018: (Howie/Douglas)Goedert wasn't a reach, he was about to be picked right after them by the Cowboys.  
2017: (Howie/Douglas)Barnett wasn't a reach, just a surprise since we needed corners in a deep corner class.  Jones was supposed to be a top 15 pick and fell due to injury and many people praised the pick.  
2016: (Howie) Wentz
2015: (all Chip) Agholor and Rowe I believe weren't considered reaches at the time were they?  I don't recall
2014: (Howie/Chip) Marcus Smith (reach that Howie took blame for), Jordan Matthews not a reach went when expected and WR was a need
2013: (Howie/Chip) Lane Johnson, Zach Ertz - star players, great picks, no reaches
2012: (Reid/Howie) Cox, Kendricks, Curry - star, solid player no reach, solid pick I don't recall Curry being considered a reach

So who on that list was a reach not on anyone's radar besides Marcus Smith and possibly JJAW?  And were those guys projected to be 1 or 2 rounds later?  Were they that much of a reach?

I'm not seeing Howie trying to "outsmart" anyone or players that weren't on "anyone's radar."  I think Howie tries to pick the players his personnel people and coaches want since they put the draft board together.  I don't see any evidence of this big conspiracy where the purposely picks players no one else would pick.  I think this phrase "outsmart everyone" is a false narrative that is easy to use but I don't see the evidence.

It'd be more accurate to just say Howie isn't a good drafter.  

Hurts, Whiteside, Barnett, Jones, and Smith all qualify IMO.         

Barnett was a late 1st/early 2nd guy, and that's coming from someone who watched his entire college career - he'll always be one of my favorite VFL's.        But he was never going to be more than a solid DE at this level, and at #15 I'm looking at difference makers.

Jones in the 3rd would have been a good pick, but at the top of the 2nd round I'm looking for someone to come in and contribute, be a potential impact player.       Jones was never going to play as a rookie, and his injury was a bad one.

I would include Kendricks and Curry only because if they had a plan to draft Wilson from the start, why the hell would you let him get beyond the Curry pick?         That's being 'cute' and trying to outsmart people instead of just taking the player you coveted.         Did they have to have Kendricks and Curry so desperately that they would keep passing on the QB they really wanted?           Makes zero sense.

Roseman was the GM when they picked Graham, I believe.       One of the classic 'smartest guy' picks ever - it was bad enough where they took him, but to trade three (!) 3rd rounders to move up a few spots, and then pass on Earl Thomas?

Hurts is an absurd pick if they intend on keeping Wentz.     But if they are looking to reinvent the way NFL offenses work, then I'll reserve judgment, but that would be the epitome of 'smartest guy in the room' stuff.

Listen, we just don't agree, that's all.        To me, far too often Roseman doesn't just take that guy that you say "wow, can't wait to see him this year", but instead has you scratching your head and saying "we'll see, I guess".         2013 was a home run, but those were Chip picks if I recall correctly.

Maybe we would have won 3 superbowls with Wilson by now, but not likely.  What I do know is that the WAY we won that superbowl with Foles was a thing of pure beauty.  I don't think I'd trade that one superbowl win for 3 the traditional way with Wilson. 

I also don't understand why Roseman is going back and second guessing THIS pick.  Of all the bad pics that have been made on his watch, why is this one the one that sticks in his craw?

1 hour ago, The Norseman said:

I also don't understand why Roseman is going back and second guessing THIS pick.  Of all the bad pics that have been made on his watch, why is this one the one that sticks in his craw?

It doesn't. He's throwing out various things to defend picking Hurts.

1 hour ago, NOTW said:

It doesn't. He's throwing out various things to defend picking Hurts.

Clearly, but he's talked about not getting Wilson for years.  It obviously bothered him long before Hurts was drafted. 

On 5/8/2020 at 4:50 AM, gameshowfan91 said:

With Reid as head coach? Reid was here for 14 seasons and no Super Bowl. 

Reid didn’t have Russell Wilson. He also didn’t throw three picks in the Super Bowl. McNabb was never good enough to win a Super Bowl, and that’s a front office issue, not a coaching one. And then they went and got Kolb and Vick and you weren’t going anywhere with those two. Reid obviously had his fair share of head scratchers(Juan Castillo) but he’s not the reason why this team didn’t win a Super Bowl.

49 minutes ago, AngryBird said:

Reid didn’t have Russell Wilson. He also didn’t throw three picks in the Super Bowl. McNabb was never good enough to win a Super Bowl, and that’s a front office issue, not a coaching one. And then they went and got Kolb and Vick and you weren’t going anywhere with those two. Reid obviously had his fair share of head scratchers(Juan Castillo) but he’s not the reason why this team didn’t win a Super Bowl.

Reid had a big hand in personnel. He's most certainly a part of it.

22 hours ago, AngryBird said:

Reid didn’t have Russell Wilson. He also didn’t throw three picks in the Super Bowl. McNabb was never good enough to win a Super Bowl, and that’s a front office issue, not a coaching one. And then they went and got Kolb and Vick and you weren’t going anywhere with those two. Reid obviously had his fair share of head scratchers(Juan Castillo) but he’s not the reason why this team didn’t win a Super Bowl.

I'll keep it short and sweet - I couldn't possibly disagree more.          Reid controlled personnel from 2005 on, so the Kolb and Vick calls were his, along with the myriad other idiotic picks and assistant coaching hires.        And we won't even get into his game day coaching and complete inability to adjust.           Reid is the primary reason this team didn't win a SB and only got to one.

On 5/9/2020 at 9:49 AM, The Norseman said:

Maybe we would have won 3 superbowls with Wilson by now, but not likely.  What I do know is that the WAY we won that superbowl with Foles was a thing of pure beauty.  I don't think I'd trade that one superbowl win for 3 the traditional way with Wilson. 

People seem to forget that Wilson didn't become a really exceptional QB until the last couple of years.          Those Seattle SB teams were carried by Lynch and that incredible defense, and they haven't sniffed a SB since that defense was dismantled.          And they don't even get to that second SB if McCarthy doesn't melt down in the NFCCG and give it away after Wilson literally handed him the game with four picks.