7 minutes ago, vikas83 said:

Up. 

True or False: legalization lead to lower prices and safer, regulated products?

You didn't explicitly state weed, because you are obviously trying to drive to a larger point, so I am assuming that is what you are referring to.

 

While I've seen people try to argue that the tax rate has made it just as, if not more, expensive than the street, that hasn't been my experience.  I believe lower prices.

 

As for the second part of your question, I was living in Denver when it became legal.  Almost daily there were news stories about people misusing the new, regulated "safe" legal weed and going to the hospital.   Or worse, kids getting into it because it looks like candy.  And before you jump on the "kids would have gotten into it anyway", you aren't buying baggies of gummy bears from your corner dealer.  So for safety, yes its safer because you know there isn't anything sprayed in it.  But also no because downstream innocent people were also being harmed by it which was one of my major gripes with the topic at hand.

9 minutes ago, paco said:

So now when they are beaten, drugged, and\or raped they can file a report now?  

 

Nevermind, my mind is changed.  This is a great idea.

Paco, this is literally same implication that when a behavior has legal consequences, it's less likely to occur. Pimps beat, drug, and rape these girls as often as they do precisely because they know the girls are far less likely to report it. The girls aren't as likely to report it because they'd be putting themselves, and their means of generating income, in jeopardy.

It's the same reason why drug dealers aren't as likely to report being beat up by a rival drug dealer for encroaching on their turf. But when the drugs they sell get legalized and regulated, then yeah an owner of a drug dispensary will be far more likely to report getting beat up for opening up shop in a neighborhood that already had one open.

Pretty basic stuff, dude.

2 minutes ago, paco said:

You didn't explicitly state weed, because you are obviously trying to drive to a larger point, so I am assuming that is what you are referring to.

 

While I've seen people try to argue that the tax rate has made it just as, if not more, expensive than the street, that hasn't been my experience.  I believe lower prices.

 

As for the second part of your question, I was living in Denver when it became legal.  Almost daily there were news stories about people misusing the new, regulated "safe" legal weed and going to the hospital.   Or worse, kids getting into it because it looks like candy.  And before you jump on the "kids would have gotten into it anyway", you aren't buying baggies of gummy bears from your corner dealer.  So for safety, yes its safer because you know there isn't anything sprayed in it.  But also no because downstream innocent people were also being harmed by it which was one of my major gripes with the topic at hand.

The game has changed my dude.  Dealers can bake and make candy.

4 minutes ago, we_gotta_believe said:

Paco, this is literally same implication that when a behavior has legal consequences, it's less likely to occur. Pimps beat, drug, and rape these girls as often as they do precisely because they know the girls are far less likely to report it. The girls aren't as likely to report it because they'd be putting themselves, and their means of generating income, in jeopardy.

It's the same reason why drug dealers aren't as likely to report being beat up by a rival drug dealer for encroaching on their turf. But when the drugs they sell get legalized and regulated, then yeah an owner of a drug dispensary will be far more likely to report getting beat up for opening up shop in a neighborhood that already had one open.

Pretty basic stuff, dude.

Except its not going to completely eliminate it.  And if its a legitimized option, a larger portion of the population will participate therefore exposing more people to this possibility.

 

And lets not pretend that this is inherently damaging from purely a mental perspective to ALL women who participate. Legal or not.   

1 minute ago, rambo said:

The game has changed my dude.  Dealers can bake and make candy.

Meh, I had a few edibles that were on the black market.  They were nothing that the chocolate truffles you could get a dispensary.  

Just now, paco said:

Except its not going to completely eliminate it.  And if its a legitimized option, a larger portion of people will participate therefore exposing more people to this possiblity.

 

And lets not pretend that this is inherently damaging to ALL women who participate from purely a mental perspective. Legal or not.   

Nobody is saying it will completely eliminate it. Or whatever your point was about "ALL women". Didn't you just accuse vikas of a strawman?

1 minute ago, we_gotta_believe said:

Nobody is saying it will completely eliminate it. Or whatever your point was about "ALL women". Didn't you just accuse vikas of a strawman?

Help me out then.... when you said that because women will be more likely report it, will that completely eliminate women who partake from being beaten, drugged or raped?  It is my position that it will not and therefore potentially put more women at risk because a larger % of the population would partake if it is legal.  If you don't agree, please clarify that you dont (and if you wish, why), because I am not trying to put words in your mouth.

 

The second part where I put ALL in caps was about mental damage, not physical.  It is damaging to anyone who sells their body.  A police report isn't going to eliminate that.

Just now, paco said:

Meh, I had a few edibles that were on the black market.  They were nothing that the chocolate truffles you could get a dispensary.  

Just saying they're making edibles and selling them, too.  Heck I make them.  Just keep them in a safe place where the kids won't get into them.  Common sense parenting.  Like raising our daughter with morals to not become a sex worker or a teen mom.  It's a scary world.  It's our job to raise them the best we can and prepare them to be a good citizen and net positive in the world.  It isn't easy but it's what we signed up for.  We can only shelter them from so much.

1 minute ago, rambo said:

Just saying they're making edibles and selling them, too.  Heck I make them.  Just keep them in a safe place where the kids won't get into them.  Common sense parenting.  Like raising our daughter with morals to not become a sex worker or a teen mom.  It's a scary world.  It's our job to raise them the best we can and prepare them to be a good citizen and net positive in the world.  It isn't easy but it's what we signed up for.  We can only shelter them from so much.

Fair enough.  And I agree with Common sense parenting, too bad a large % of Americans are senseless.  But these little buggers get into EVERYTHING.  We have a lock box for ours to make sure even if she finds where the stash is, she can't get to them.

 

I know, she's only 10 months but she really is hitting those milestones!

48 minutes ago, paco said:

  

Kind of the point.  I don't want to see it expanded.  Its already tough out there to raise a girl and have her know her self worth\have a positive image of herself.

I think that horse has left the barn. As a parent I'm more concerned with all the cam girl stuff. Social media seems to be inundated with the notion of doing things online to make money. I have to be vigilant about policing my daughter's online activity. She can't be online in her room or behind closed doors and it's going to stay that way as long as I can help it. We won't let her have a smart phone "even though all her friends have one" for this reason.  For her birthday this spring I got her a smart watch that can do calls and texts. Now she can communicate  with us but no cameras or screens where I can't see. 

All this said... this is my job as a parent, not the government's. 

Just now, paco said:

Fair enough.

 

And I agree with Common sense parenting.  But these little buggers get into EVERYTHING.  We have a lock box for ours to make sure even if she finds where the stash is, she can't get to them.

 

I know, she's only 10 months but she really is hitting those milestones!

Mines 11 and I go back forth between being proud of her intelligence, work ethic and commitment to excel at everything she does to wanting to strangle her because of her ever increasing know-it-all back talk and emotional swings.  Enjoy the sweet years.

59 minutes ago, paco said:

Edit:  One more issue for society as a whole:  Disease.

 

I don't care how well you regulate it, this WILL spread STD's.  Since everyone is trying to use porn as an argument for legal prostitution, lets look at the porn industry.  A dirty secret is that a much, much larger % of the "stars" live with herpes than the general population.  How many times has there been an actor testing positive for HIV and they have to shut down production.

 

Guess what, that WILL be an issue for society as a whole, except it will be exponentially worse. We are talking about an entire population now at risk vs a fairly closed circle of people.

Eh this can go both ways and Oliver touched on it in his clip. In places carrying some quantity of condoms has been labeled as prostitution paraphernalia and grounds for detainment leading to decreased use.  Prostitutes have been arrested for trying to report rapes or clients slipping off condoms so most just never report them, whereas in a place like New Zealand where it's decriminalized they have prosecuted those cases. 

It's not as straightforward as you'd think. Or at least I thought. 

24 minutes ago, paco said:

Help me out then.... when you said that because women will be more likely report it, will that completely eliminate women who partake from being beaten, drugged or raped?  It is my position that it will not and therefore potentially put more women at risk because a larger % of the population would partake if it is legal.  If you don't agree, please clarify that you dont (and if you wish, why), because I am not trying to put words in your mouth.

 

The second part where I put ALL in caps was about mental damage, not physical.  It is damaging to anyone who sells their body.  A police report isn't going to eliminate that.

The words more likely were somehow interpreted by you as meaning an absolute certainty, but I'm here to assure you that's not what those words mean. Hope that helps.

6 minutes ago, we_gotta_believe said:

The words more likely were somehow interpreted by you as meaning an absolute certainty, but I'm here to assure you that's not what those words mean. Hope that helps.

Maybe I'm missing something.  The only time I said "all" was in regards to damage to the mental state. 

 

Perhaps I phrased it poorly, but the first half I was agreeing that it will help lower the % of cases of women being beaten, drugged and raped, which I believe was your stance,  but my position is that because it opens the door for this to happen more, the net amount could be greater.

27 minutes ago, paco said:

Maybe I'm missing something.  The only time I said "all" was in regards to damage to the mental state. 

 

Perhaps I phrased it poorly, but the first half I was agreeing that it will help lower the % of cases of women being beaten, drugged and raped, which I believe was your stance as well,  but my position is that because it opens the door for this to happen more, the net amount could be greater.

Yeah, and in my first post in the thread, I said the increase in demand could offset the gains in curbing the black market. But at least with a regulated market there are further refinements and actions to be taken, with a black market, there's very little that can be done to help these girls.

@vikas83 in the Ukraine thread:

@vikas83 in the hooker thread:

 

🤔

6 minutes ago, we_gotta_believe said:

Yeah, and in my first post in the thread, I said the increase demand could offset the gains in curbing the black market. But at least with a regulated market there are further refinements and actions to be taken, with a black market, there's very little that can be done to help these girls.

Ok.  Then I don't know what the argument was because I do agree that it will lower the % of girls physically abused, but I do think the net gain could be more.

 

What it does mentally to a woman cannot be eliminated, regulated or not.  Therefore legalization would be more damaging to our population, not less.

18 minutes ago, paco said:

Ok.  Then I don't know what the argument was because I do agree that it will lower the % of girls physically abused, but I do think the net gain could be more.

 

What it does mentally to a woman cannot be eliminated, regulated or not.  Therefore legalization would be more damaging to our population, not less.

People engage in mentally damaging behaviors all the time. Drinking in excess, eating in excess, spending too much time on social media, spending too much time watching Tucker Carlson, etc. Doesn't mean those things should be illegal. 

18 minutes ago, we_gotta_believe said:

People engage in mentally damaging behaviors all the time. Drinking in excess, eating in excess, spending too much time on social media, spending too much time watching Tucker Carlson, etc. Doesn't mean those things should be illegal. 

Good point.  They are very similar things to selling your body for sex.

 

Sometimes I forget that CVON is THE place to go for nuance.  

3 minutes ago, paco said:

Good point.  They are very similar things to selling your body for sex.

 

Sometimes I forget that CVON is THE place to go for nuance.  

Welp I'm glad that we made it all of 3 pages before digging our heels in, resorting to strawman arguments, and talking past each other. I guess by CVON standards, that's not too bad!

10 minutes ago, we_gotta_believe said:

Welp I'm glad that we made it all of 3 pages before digging our heels in, resorting to strawman arguments, and talking past each other. I guess by CVON standards, that's not too bad!

Not sure why drinking too much was brought up in a conversation about legalizing prostitution.  I only worked with what you gave me.

2 hours ago, paco said:

Edit:  One more issue for society as a whole:  Disease.

 

I don't care how well you regulate it, this WILL spread STD's.  Since everyone is trying to use porn as an argument for legal prostitution, lets look at the porn industry.  A dirty secret is that a much, much larger % of the "stars" live with herpes than the general population.  How many times has there been an actor testing positive for HIV and they have to shut down production.

 

Guess what, that WILL be an issue for society as a whole, except it will be exponentially worse. We are talking about an entire population now at risk vs a fairly closed circle of people.

Porn keeps people from having real sex which this brings down the percentage of std transmittal. 
 

as far as parents being responsible for teaching kids not to take risks as it relates to sexual desire(s).
 

Good luck with that especially now days when people think legalizing sex trade is ok morally as a society  and your kids are being told that’s ok.  
 

 

2 hours ago, paco said:

No, but it is society's responsibility to be a "healthy" (from a social perspective) as possible.  Legalizing prostitution will create, IMO, many many many more problems than it fixes.  Raising baby girl is only a small part of my objection.

He is obviously bias on this issue.   Because he doesn’t have or have plans to have kids.  But if he did he would completely change his tune and rightfully so

just like if he was poor he wouldn’t tell people not to be so poor

but at the end of the day our children are our future and legalizing prostitution down nothing but make society a dark place where people (especially women of course) born into unfortunate circumstances suffer greatly 

This country doesn’t need anymore legal vices or unhealthy freedoms. 

1 minute ago, SNOORDA said:

He is obviously bias on this issue.   Because he doesn’t have or have plans to have kids.  But if he did he would completely change his tune and rightfully so

just like if he was poor he wouldn’t tell people not to be so poor

but at the end of the day our children are our future and legalizing prostitution down nothing but make society a dark place where people (especially women of course) born into unfortunate circumstances suffer greatly 

 

Oh thank you so much for explaining my views to me. I expect people in the sub-forum of a football message board to know all my motivations. This has been incredibly useful.

4 minutes ago, vikas83 said:

Oh thank you so much for explaining my views to me. I expect people in the sub-forum of a football message board to know all my motivations. This has been incredibly useful.

I wasn’t talking to you actually but if your listening then good

repulsive?  It goes far worse than repulsive