A lot of fans tend to get caught up in athletic splash plays and downplay the the managerial portion of the QB position. Game management and working within a system is actually a skill in itself. It's why you see people make statements like "they ran more," when the difference is negligible. Scheme matters, even for players at the level of Wentz, but a great scheme will fail without the proper players and improve with the right players.

Foles in 2013, approximately 10.5 games, 203/317 2,891 passing yards, 27 TDs, 2 INTs, 221 rushing yards, 3 rushing TDs. Scores minus garbage time against Broncos with Foles in, 310-215. (29.5 points per game)

Vick in 2013, approximately five games, 77/141 1,215 passing yards, 5 TDs, 3 INTs, 306 rushing yards, 2 rushing TDs, scores with Vick in 108-157. (21.6 points per game)

Other QBs in 2013, approximately 5.5 games, 107/190 1,515 passing yards, 5 TDs, 3 INTs, 304 rushing yards, 2 rushing TDs. Scores with QB other than Foles 115-167 (20.9 points per game)

All of this to say, while scheme plays a part, it is disrespectful and foolish to declare a player's success to be only scheme and surprise. Particularly when the guy comes back and does well again in different years.

In 2017 to 2018, Foles played in 13 games that they actually cared about. The Dallas game from 2017 was practice and they basically said as much leading up to it. For sake of clarity and simplicity, the Rams game he finished is also going to be removed, so we'll just focus on the 12 starts.
2017 Giants and Raiders -- 43/76, 400 passing, 5 TDs, 1 INT, (53-39) 2-0

2017 postseason -- 77/106, 971 passing, 6 TDs, 1 INT, 1 receiving TD (94-50) 3-0

2018 regular season 141/195, 1,413 passing, 7 TDs, 4 INTs,  (125-92) 4-1

43/71, 467 passing, 3 TDs, 4 INTs, 1 rushing TD, (30-35) 1-1

304/448 3,251 passing, 21 TDs, 10 INTs, 95.2 passer rating with 1 rushing TD and 1 receiving TD, 302-216 (25 points per game) with a 10-2 record.

 

On 5/17/2020 at 2:21 AM, UK_EaglesFan89 said:

2013 was more scheme and surprise than it was Foles. I said that to friends at the time and I still believe it now. 

Nonsense. Scheme? Of course, always, but surprise? This is the NFL man, there are few surprises and none that are the basis for a season of excellence. Stop disrespecting the man. Honor and cherish him for who he is and what he gave us.

1 hour ago, Runtherock said:

Nonsense. Scheme? Of course, always, but surprise? This is the NFL man, there are few surprises and none that are the basis for a season of excellence. Stop disrespecting the man. Honor and cherish him for who he is and what he gave us.

It was Chip Kelly and the offense absolutely caught teams by surprise until they started to figure it out. Happens all the time in the NFL. A team does something different, teams struggle to adapt and then eventually they do. Watch the Niners offense take a step back this year. 

On 5/12/2020 at 1:14 PM, vikas83 said:

McNabb is incredibly underrated by this fan base. He carried an offense with basically nothing else to the NFC Championship game in 2001-2003. Yes, the defense was good, but we weren't the 1985 Bears or the 2000 Ravens. Yes, the offensive line was above average, but it wasn't stacked with pro bowlers and hall of famers -- McNabb's escapability made them look better than they were. Even in 2004, he lost TO and got them to the Super Bowl. 

I will always be thankful for 2017, but Wentz is clearly the better QB. Not sure how that's even a debate. Foles is maybe the streakiest QB I have ever seen, and I am forever grateful we rode his hot streak to a Super Bowl.

I think mcnabb is under appreciated by the fan base and underrated. However the defense was really good his first couple of seasons. 
 

in 00, defense was 4th in ppg (15.3ppg)

In 2001, the defense didn’t give up more than 21Points all regular season and gave up more than 21 in just one of their 19 games (only time was nfc title game at rams). Were 2nd in the league in ppg (13 ppg)

in 2002, defense was 2nd in ppg (15ppg)

in 2003, defense was 7th in ppg (17.9ppg). Frankly the defense being seventh was actually better than you think considering the amount of injuries they sustained on defense along the dl, losing Emmons amongst others. 

in 2004, eagles defense was 2nd in ppg (16.3ppg). 
 

so in the taking away mcnabb’s rookie year as he didn’t play much and the next five years they made the playoffs with 3 defenses that were top 2 in ppg, 4 defenses that were top 5 in ppg and all 5 were top 10. Might not have been gang green or ravens but I’d argue their defense is grossly underrated especially 2001. That might have been one of the best eagles defenses in their history. To not give up more than 21 points all season until the nfc title game is ridiculous. 
 

i look directly at the bucs and cardinals games to why the fan base feels the way they do about him. Last game at the vet and he didn’t play well. And you have the lasting image of ronde returning a pick 6. Cardinals everyone thought that was the year of destiny after they beat the giants. But he and the offense didn’t show up for half the game (defense didn’t really either). To me the Carolina nfc title game they were fortunate to even make it that far as mike Sherman was an idiot and didn’t just keep running green or go for it on 4th down. The offense was not good outside of like 2-3 drives largely cause they lost westbrook in week 16 at miami and he and mcnabb were the two guys they couldn’t afford to lose on offense. 

**also didn’t help With the fan base he danced before the Dallas playoff game and Some of his off the field Things he said. 

On 5/12/2020 at 1:40 PM, kentwo said:

1. Underrated - He wasn't the greatest of all time, but finding a good starting level QB in the NFL is really hard to do. McNabb was an above average starting QB in the NFL for years and I don't know how many people appreciate how hard it is for a team to find a guy like that. Some teams spend years and ton of draft picks looking for one. 

2. Wentz

McNabb was our version of  Dak Prescott 

Wentz 

I think McNabb was a good QB that benefited from being coached by Andy Reid.  Andy knows how to get the very best out of his QBs.  I believe had McNabb gone to 28 other teams, you would never have remembered his name.  

While that can probably be said about a lot of QBs, isn't that really the best way to answer the OP first question?

Personally, I never liked the fact that he always threw low and away.  Never could hit a WR in stride.  He absolutely had the opportunity to be an all time great while he would still opt to tuck the ball and run with it, but once he decided he was going to be a pocket QB exclusively, his stock dropped and he became a fine QB in an excellent coaching situation.

15 minutes ago, Vee said:

I think McNabb was a good QB that benefited from being coached by Andy Reid.  Andy knows how to get the very best out of his QBs.  I believe had McNabb gone to 28 other teams, you would never have remembered his name.  

While that can probably be said about a lot of QBs, isn't that really the best way to answer the OP first question?

Personally, I never liked the fact that he always threw low and away.  Never could hit a WR in stride.  He absolutely had the opportunity to be an all time great while he would still opt to tuck the ball and run with it, but once he decided he was going to be a pocket QB exclusively, his stock dropped and he became a fine QB in an excellent coaching situation.

You may be right on that one

On 5/13/2020 at 4:14 AM, zenclaybourne said:

He set multiple records in consecutive games at the end of 2018.

He was amazing against Houston, there's a lot of nonsense about Foles, the fact is for Philly, whenever he got a run of games he could pick teams apart and put points on the board.  He still throws a better intermediate ball to the sideline than Carson because he tries to drop it in rather than force it on a shallow arc.

There was a time I defended McNabb. But out of blind loyalty they held on to him to long, which to me tainted his worth. His personality began to hurt the team and his ability deteriorated due to injury. I think Wentz is good, but see same thing happening.

Also think eagles would of had the same record post Superbowl with Foles. When they could have got something for Wentz.

39 minutes ago, 4for4EaglesNest said:

So WIP has a topic each day, which was a wise effort to spark debate and phone calls.  

 

So here it goes:

 

McNabb/Overrated or Underrated- I have made my opinions known about McNabb forever.  The same people who tell McNabb to get over being boo'd at the draft are the same people who hold a grudge because he puked and he (and Andy Reid) couldn't win the big one.  Best QB in our teams history.  Underrated and over hated.  

Who is really he most important player on the 2008 Phillies- Hard to say.  I would say it's close between Hamels, Utley and Howard.  Def not Rollins.  Jimmy Rollins is one of the most overrated sports figures to come out of Philly in the last 20 years.  I'm not saying he sucked.  He clearly didn't.  But he's not the players a lot of fan boys make him out to be.  I guess I would go with Hamels just because of his performance in the postseason.  

Was Sam Hinkie a good GM for the 76ers- No.  He wasn't.  What has his intentional losing gotten us? Two soft players who refuse to work on their games.  Nothing more.  

Carson Wentz vs Nick Foles- Typical WIP BS.  Wentz is the better player.  Foles was extremely streaky and will hold a soft spot in all of our hearts and minds.  But he was terrible in a lot of spots.  

Joe Giglio vs Everyone on Gabe Kapler- I was one of the first "NEGADELPHIANS" to jump all over Kapler.  Didn't take me long either.  When I pitch a tent on a hill, I am usually right.  It took everyone more time to come over to my way of thinking.  He was a complete disaster.  

That's a little harsh. While it drove us nuts watching him swing for the fences instead of just trying to get on base as a lead off man should, he was a defensive wizard which includes being a 4 time gold glove winner. When was the last gold glove winner for the Phils at shortstop? Bowa? Think about this, in between Bowa and Rollins, they have had guys like Ivan Dejesus, Steve Jeltz, Kevin Stocker, and many other no names. Now we have a lazy a** Segura. I will always appreciate what Rollins brought to those teams no matter how many times he aggravated the sh#t out of me offensively. 

Mcnabb is rated about where he should be.  He was a bona fide franchise Qb, kind of like Eli Manning, who burned a little brighter but for less time than Eli.  There were about 3-4 years where McNabb was in the conversation as a top 5 Qb.  Eli was only in that conversation once.

 

If Wentz's career ended today, you'd kind of have to go with Foles.  But it won't, Wentz has his best football ahead of him.

2 hours ago, 4for4EaglesNest said:

Who is really he most important player on the 2008 Phillies- Hard to say.  I would say it's close between Hamels, Utley and Howard.  Def not Rollins.  Jimmy Rollins is one of the most overrated sports figures to come out of Philly in the last 20 years.  I'm not saying he sucked.  He clearly didn't.  But he's not the players a lot of fan boys make him out to be.  I guess I would go with Hamels just because of his performance in the postseason.  

Rollins was huge part of those teams

2007 won MVP

2008 Hit lead off HRs in both NLDS and NLCS clinching games

Above average hitter for a SS

Above average defense (won gold glove 4 times)

1 hour ago, 4for4EaglesNest said:

2007 has nothing to do with 2008.  Which is what the discussion is about.  Above avg hitter for SS.  Isn’t day much.  He couldn’t have won GG 4 times in one year.  

Only played 137 games, so was apparently hurt part of year.

Those lead off HRs def account for something

1 hour ago, 4for4EaglesNest said:

Yeah.  No one said they didn’t.  It was the question of who was more impactful.  Rollins has two solo HR in the 2008 postseason.  Obviously you’re a fan.  Cool. 

Who else had memorable moments that post season ? 
 

Utley has a couple plays

Howard had a couple big HRs

Matt Stairs

Hamels

who else? 
 

Rollins is right there 

On 5/17/2020 at 2:21 AM, UK_EaglesFan89 said:

2013 was more scheme and surprise than it was Foles. I said that to friends at the time and I still believe it now. 

Really hard to argue considering that Vick failed in the same scheme the same year, and basically everyone else did in the NFL too. When the Eagles put more RPOs into the offense in 2017 Foles was like a different player. To me Foles made that offense more than that offense made Foles.