2 hours ago, EagleVA said:

I've always said many GM's are very football ignorant, just look at many of Howie's picks and passes, dude has to spend money on free agents to field a competitive team, unfortunately you can't sustain a winning team that way.

 

No, they aren't. Drafting players is not an exact science and never will be. There are tons of hits and misses every year. Teams field a competitive team through a mix of the draft and FA. No team these days wins exclusively from the draft (thanks to FA). Teams don't get to hold onto players forever, including the good ones. And no team is hitting on every single draft. The teams that have a SB window generally have a good or great QB and have hit on a draft or two and know how to make some smart FA signings. Which is exactly how the Eagles won a SB in 2017. And how they will have an opportunity to do so this year as well.

On 11/26/2022 at 3:03 PM, time2rock said:

I love Foles and how he always presented and handled himself.  Knowing what we know now I definitely would have chosen him to continue his career here over Ginger Jesus.  Do have to wonder how the butterfly effect would have altered things.  Would Hurts even be here and if so would he have gotten a chance to play?  Would we be sitting here 11 weeks into the season with the best record.  Etc.

Even with NIck's hot and cold streaks? I remember Nick's first snaps as a rookie with the Eagles and could see there was something there though unpolished. But he had some pretty crappy halves and games too. Would have have gotten over the cold streaks over time? Who knows. I was like "WTF?" when I heard that Chippah traded him

21 minutes ago, Devaster said:

No, they aren't. Drafting players is not an exact science and never will be. There are tons of hits and misses every year. Teams field a competitive team through a mix of the draft and FA. No team these days wins exclusively from the draft (thanks to FA). Teams don't get to hold onto players forever, including the good ones. And no team is hitting on every single draft. The teams that have a SB window generally have a good or great QB and have hit on a draft or two and know how to make some smart FA signings. Which is exactly how the Eagles won a SB in 2017. And how they will have an opportunity to do so this year as well.

There shouldn't be tons of misses every year in the early rounds (1-3) if you have an eye for talent.....PERIOD!!  

The key to sustaining a competitive teams is drafting well in the early rounds and knowing when to move on from your veteran players, the Eagles have had a poor performance in these areas.

Bad drafting is why our special teams are so bad, no one is expecting ALL-PRO players from every draft but it's expected that a GM draft talented players, when you miss on so many picks it shows on your talentless special teams.

35 minutes ago, eglz1 said:

Even with NIck's hot and cold streaks?

Nick never had cold streaks. We never lost any games where he played and he never had any incompletions/interceptions/fumbles. Every snap went as planned, nothing ever went wrong. He did no wrong! Saint Nick forever!

 

 

At least that's how  my memory remembers it ...   

1 hour ago, EagleVA said:

There shouldn't be tons of misses every year in the early rounds (1-3) if you have an eye for talent.....PERIOD!!  

The key to sustaining a competitive teams is drafting well in the early rounds and knowing when to move on from your veteran players, the Eagles have had a poor performance in these areas.

Bad drafting is why our special teams are so bad, no one is expecting ALL-PRO players from every draft but it's expected that a GM draft talented players, when you miss on so many picks it shows on your talentless special teams.

Flat out wrong and a pipe dream. Teams don't consistently hit on players, especially in the 1st few rounds. Almost every team suffers from this. Some teams get lucky in a draft or two and have a haul for 4+ years (think the Seahawks legion of boom years). Some teams can get good players in the early rounds of a few drafts, but it is rare. Most of the time teams are missing on players. And many rosters are filled with UDFA's.

The drafts over the last couple years have been solid. And trades + free agents are where teams also need to be smart to put together an entire team.

The key to sustained success in the NFL is having a QB, hitting on a couple drafts every 5 years, and being intelligent with trades and FA pick-ups.

51 minutes ago, Devaster said:

Flat out wrong and a pipe dream. Teams don't consistently hit on players, especially in the 1st few rounds.

Here the problem, "hit on players" isn't well defined and I never used the phrase, feel free to consider yourself the winner if that's your objective. 

College talent and success does not always transfer into NFL talent.  NOBODY knows or can predict whether or not a kid has hit his developmental limit.  Plus with the constant coaching changes at the NFL level, kids being drafted by horrible teams with no supporting talent and injuries, many kids are misused and/or played too soon.  

BUt the pressure to win in the NFL is real and coaches and GM's don't have the patience to develop players slowly.  High draft picks are not only expected to play but expected to play without mistakes.....which is unrealistic.  

30 minutes ago, EagleVA said:

Here the problem, "hit on players" isn't well defined and I never used the phrase, feel free to consider yourself the winner if that's your objective. 

Not trying to be a winner. Just trying to clear some misconceptions. You are definitely right about holding on to veterans. Another consideration is when to trade players. Belichick has been a master of trading a player before they need to sign them to a massive contract and getting great value. They also generally do a really good job of bringing in veterans and retreads that know their scheme after trying to play somewhere else for a few years.

There is no right or wrong way to win a draft or have a successful draft. But getting 2-3 starters from a single draft, regardless of what round they were picked in, is a great year. Especially if one of them, or more, is a top tier player. And if a team can get some other special teams and depth players in that same draft then that is an amazing draft.

Ultimately, most teams are lucky to get a fraction of that. And that includes the teams or front offices that are viewed at being good at drafting and evaluating talent.

But all it takes are one or two drafts once there are already some key pieces in place, like the QB.

Howie had his man and made it happen. Wentz led us to SB. It's one of Howie's best achievements. Though it collapsed later, winning a SB is still worth it.

1 hour ago, birdman#12 said:

College talent and success does not always transfer into NFL talent.  NOBODY knows or can predict whether or not a kid has hit his developmental limit.  Plus with the constant coaching changes at the NFL level, kids being drafted by horrible teams with no supporting talent and injuries, many kids are misused and/or played too soon.  

BUt the pressure to win in the NFL is real and coaches and GM's don't have the patience to develop players slowly.  High draft picks are not only expected to play but expected to play without mistakes.....which is unrealistic.  

I agree with most of what you wrote, no confused smiley from me, however, what's highlighted is the key. 

One has to look at a college player and ask does his skillset translate to the NFL, that mainly includes physical ability (you can't get blood from a rock) and playing style, Jimmy Johnson knew this, that's how he built his Cowboy dynasty, no JJ Arcega-Whiteside's or Jalen Reagor's on that team, only an ignorant arse GM would select talent like that early in the draft.   

The point you made about coaches, horrible teams, and player misuse has ruined many players, Gino Smith is a perfect example, I for one am not at all surprised at how well he's playing, I saw a decent share of his Mountaineer games and knew his early failure was no fault of his, dude is/was a bigtime talent.

 

1 hour ago, Devaster said:

Not trying to be a winner. Just trying to clear some misconceptions. You are definitely right about holding on to veterans.

It's a misconception that you think I was talking about holding on to veterans, I was talking about when to let them walk.

10 minutes ago, EagleVA said:

It's a misconception that you think I was talking about holding on to veterans, I was talking about when to let them walk.

lol. I see you just like to argue for the sake of arguing. Even when we say the same thing or agree on something.

1 minute ago, Devaster said:

lol. I see you just like to argue for the sake of arguing. Even when we say the same thing or agree on something.

Exactly right. Dude is a contrarian by nature. You'll find that out the more you expose yourself to his nonsense.

13 minutes ago, EagleVA said:

I agree with most of what you wrote, no confused smiley from me, however, what's highlighted is the key. 

One has to look at a college player and ask does his skillset translate to the NFL, that mainly includes physical ability (you can't get blood from a rock) and playing style, Jimmy Johnson knew this, that's how he built his Cowboy dynasty, no JJ Arcega-Whiteside's or Jalen Reagor's on that team, only an ignorant arse GM would select talent like that early in the draft.   

The point you made about coaches, horrible teams, and player misuse has ruined many players, Gino Smith is a perfect example, I for one am not at all surprised at how well he's playing, I saw a decent share of his Mountaineer games and knew his early failure was no fault of his, dude is/was a bigtime talent.

 

And that may have worked 30 years ago, but it isn't that simple. And it never was, even back then. So many players are drafted because of their combine and size only to bust. So many undersized players succeed. You just never know. There is no perfect formula. Otherwise a team would have cracked it and draft gems with every pick. This isn't Madden the video game.

12 minutes ago, Devaster said:

So many players are drafted because of their combine and size only to bust. So many undersized players succeed. You just never know. 

You'll know when you factor in their playing style.

Just now, EagleVA said:

You'll know when you factor in their playing style.

That is factored in. Schemes, style, etc. are all known. Work ethic is even known to an extent. Some guys grow up and put the work in even when their athleticism got them through everything before. Some guys don't. Some guys have a leadership quality or motor that isn't something that can be measured. Some players are drafted for scheme, while others are best available. Or a position of need. Some of those picks work out and some don't. There are so many factors and none of it is absolute.

There are qualities about a player you just can't learn until you get them away from their college program. The difference between a college program and an actual career job in the pro leagues.

17 hours ago, Mike030270 said:

Would we have drafted Mahomes? There were lots of teams that worked him out and still passed on him

It's a do over question, based on what you know now and any team watching the last 5 years and taking a QB other than Mahomes is a stretch, you can make a case for others, but Mahomes is as it stands the best in the league for me, and our original pick in 2017 was 12, we could have moved up to 10 probably by swapping firsts and that years picks 43 (Sidney Jones), 99 (Rasul Douglas), 118 (Mack Hollins) and 132 (Pumphrey) we'd have lost nothing roster wise. Hell with another year of Sam Bradford we might even have ended up picking in the top ten anyway.

32 minutes ago, Cochis_Calhoun said:

It's a do over question, based on what you know now and any team watching the last 5 years and taking a QB other than Mahomes is a stretch, you can make a case for others, but Mahomes is as it stands the best in the league for me, and our original pick in 2017 was 12, we could have moved up to 10 probably by swapping firsts and that years picks 43 (Sidney Jones), 99 (Rasul Douglas), 118 (Mack Hollins) and 132 (Pumphrey) we'd have lost nothing roster wise. Hell with another year of Sam Bradford we might even have ended up picking in the top ten anyway.

Woah! I was with you until the idea of not having the chance to take Pumphrey. Deal breaker there. 

3 hours ago, Cochis_Calhoun said:

It's a do over question, based on what you know now and any team watching the last 5 years and taking a QB other than Mahomes is a stretch, you can make a case for others, but Mahomes is as it stands the best in the league for me, and our original pick in 2017 was 12, we could have moved up to 10 probably by swapping firsts and that years picks 43 (Sidney Jones), 99 (Rasul Douglas), 118 (Mack Hollins) and 132 (Pumphrey) we'd have lost nothing roster wise. Hell with another year of Sam Bradford we might even have ended up picking in the top ten anyway.

Well if it's based on what we know now then the Browns would have drafted him #1 overall. There's no team that would have traded the #1 pick regardless of where we end up if we didn't pick Wentz

I don't think anyone wouldn't have drafted Mahomes

I never had an issue with the pick, it was the huge contract after Foles won the SB that I didn't like. I thought they should've let Carson play out 2019 before deciding to go all in on him.

17 minutes ago, MF POON said:

I never had an issue with the pick, it was the huge contract after Foles won the SB that I didn't like. I thought they should've let Carson play out 2019 before deciding to go all in on him.

Yup, and I was a big Wentz fan at the time, but I wanted another full season from him before thinking of an extension. 

On 11/24/2022 at 10:23 PM, gameshowfan91 said:

I think I would. Without Wentz, Eagles don't have a Super Bowl. And who would be current Eagles QB?

I would not have traded up and seeing Dak Prescott available in the 3rd round would gone there to take him (Cowboys took him in Round 4).  I saw Dak play at Mississippi State and he showed he could be a star in the NFL.  I suspect under Doug he would have done very well and might very well have also led the Eagles to that Super Bowl.

Of course, the Wentz injury led to Nick Foles eventually getting the big payday he did with the Jaguars. 

And speaking of Foles, I would have taken Kirk Cousins over him in Round 3 in 2012 (Cousins also was a 4th rounder).  Cousins had already shown he could win at Michigan State. 

1 hour ago, MF POON said:

I never had an issue with the pick, it was the huge contract after Foles won the SB that I didn't like. I thought they should've let Carson play out 2019 before deciding to go all in on him.

 

 

51 minutes ago, EagleJoe8 said:

Yup, and I was a big Wentz fan at the time, but I wanted another full season from him before thinking of an extension. 

 Problem is had they waited until after 2019, Eagles may have had to pay Wentz more.

51 minutes ago, Wallyhorse said:

I would not have traded up and seeing Dak Prescott available in the 3rd round would gone there to take him (Cowboys took him in Round 4).  I saw Dak play at Mississippi State and he showed he could be a star in the NFL.  I suspect under Doug he would have done very well and might very well have also led the Eagles to that Super Bowl.

Of course, the Wentz injury led to Nick Foles eventually getting the big payday he did with the Jaguars. 

And speaking of Foles, I would have taken Kirk Cousins over him in Round 3 in 2012 (Cousins also was a 4th rounder).  Cousins had already shown he could win at Michigan State. 

Are you serious here on Dak and Cousins? There's even Cowboys fans who don't want Dak. Have you seen Dak when Zeke got suspended for 6 games (look lost)? Not even Jerry really want to pay Dak. Why do you think Joneses go above and beyond on offensive side of ball. No way Eagles win a Super Bowl on Eagles. Cousins is another Dak. Cousins can't win big games either. If they drafted Cousins instead of Foles, I don't think Eagles even think about having him as backup QB in 2017.

21 minutes ago, gameshowfan91 said:

 

 Problem is had they waited until after 2019, Eagles may have had to pay Wentz more.

Are you serious here on Dak and Cousins? There's even Cowboys fans who don't want Dak. Have you seen Dak when Zeke got suspended for 6 games (look lost)? Not even Jerry really want to pay Dak. Why do you think Joneses go above and beyond on offensive side of ball. No way Eagles win a Super Bowl on Eagles. Cousins is another Dak. Cousins can't win big games either. If they drafted Cousins instead of Foles, I don't think Eagles even think about having him as backup QB in 2017.

If he proves worth it, then so be it. I don’t believe Wentz had at the time he got extended. 

Yes we still draft him. 

BPA, and that he was.