Supreme Court ends affirmative action in higher ed

[Dave Moss]

 

[Gannan]

AA policies were highly discriminatory, especially to asian Americans. It was a misguided, antiquated policy that needed to go (along with "legacy admissions").

[Dave Moss]

interesting

[Dave Moss]

 

[Blazehound]

Long over due. AA by its definition is propagation of racism.

[Gannan]

Similarly there are numerous programs and scholarships trying to promote the idea of women going to college. These are extremely outdated policies and practices. Women in college far outnumber men. If anything we need to start reexamining how we raise boys in this society so there aren't so many mentally ill, incel losers who can't earn a decent living when they grow up. 

[we_gotta_believe]

33 minutes ago, Gannan said:

AA policies were highly discriminatory, especially to asian Americans. It was a misguided, antiquated policy that needed to go (along with "legacy admissions").

100% agreed. And yeah, like how the F were legacy admissions even a thing to begin with? Like some dean was sipping on some brandy by a fireplace and suddenly thought, you know what everyone loves? Nepotism. But not just any regular old nepotism, no no no, we need to institutionalize it!

[vikas83]

7 minutes ago, we_gotta_believe said:

100% agreed. And yeah, like how the F were legacy admissions even a thing to begin with? Like some dean was sipping on some brandy by a fireplace and suddenly thought, you know what everyone loves? Nepotism. But not just any regular old nepotism, no no no, we need to institutionalize it!

I'm not a fan of legacy admissions, but they are mainly a fund raising tool. If you went to a top school, your kids are basically screwed if you don't give multiple 6 figures back to the school over time. Since I have no kids, I never gave to Penn, but my brother had to give a ton so his kids can get in. If you pay, your kids get in. If you don't, your kids gets blacklisted.

[we_gotta_believe]

6 minutes ago, vikas83 said:

I'm not a fan of legacy admissions, but they are mainly a fund raising tool. If you went to a top school, your kids are basically screwed if you don't give multiple 6 figures back to the school over time. Since I have no kids, I never gave to Penn, but my brother had to give a ton so his kids can get in. If you pay, your kids get in. If you don't, your kids gets blacklisted.

Sounds more like extortion than fund raising. Maybe I'm being too naive and idealistic, but if I were in that situation, I'd sooner have them change their names and try to get accepted on their own merits and achievements, not on what name is printed on their birth certificate. Just seems wrong to be sending that message to your kids that they weren't good enough on their own and had to have Daddy step in to pull some strings to get them accepted.

[vikas83]

7 minutes ago, we_gotta_believe said:

Sounds more like extortion than fund raising. Maybe I'm being too naive and idealistic, but if I were in that situation, I'd sooner have them change their names and try to get accepted on their own merits and achievements, not on what name is printed on their birth certificate. Just seems wrong to be sending that message to your kids that they weren't good enough on their own and had to have Daddy step in to pull some strings to get them accepted.

Here's the problem -- if you don't give, you get blacklisted at all the Ivies. It sucks. They aren't really even subtle about it -- if you make real money, they expect their cut or you are dead to them. My brother was freaking out that his kids were going to be hurt because their uncle didn't give, but he confirmed with the school that it has no impact.

The schools get the joke too -- why would anyone donate to them unless they wanted something in return? I don't have kids, and Penn is already rich as hell, so I don't give them squat. I give money to my old high school to fund scholarships for kids that need it. 

Oh, and changing their name/using their mom's name won't work. I know people who have tried. Give, or your kids are screwed. They still have to be able to justify the admission academically (unless you're giving millions). I'd say ~75% of "legacy" admissions are kids that meet the requirements for admission but would be hurt if their parents didn't give. My nieces would fall in that bucket.

[we_gotta_believe]

5 minutes ago, vikas83 said:

Here's the problem -- if you don't give, you get blacklisted at all the Ivies. It sucks. They aren't really even subtle about it -- if you make real money, they expect their cut or you are dead to them. My brother was freaking out that his kids were going to be hurt because their uncle didn't give, but he confirmed with the school that it has no impact.

The schools get the joke too -- why would anyone donate to them unless they wanted something in return? I don't have kids, and Penn is already rich as hell, so I don't give them squat. I give money to my old high school to fund scholarships for kids that need it. 

Oh, and changing their name/using their mom's name won't work. I know people who have tried. Give, or your kids are screwed. They still have to be able to justify the admission academically (unless you're giving millions). I'd say ~75% of "legacy" admissions are kids that meet the requirements for admission but would be hurt if their parents didn't give. My nieces would fall in that bucket.

How does that even work in practice though? How do they even know how many kids you have and what their names are? Is this a university or the church of scientology?

[vikas83]

2 minutes ago, we_gotta_believe said:

How does that even work in practice though? How do they even know how many kids you have and what their names are? Is this a university or the church of scientology?

It's really not that hard to find out, and the applications ask. If you lie, you're cooked. 

Do you really think Ivy League schools don't know about their graduates families?

And they all share info.

[we_gotta_believe]

4 minutes ago, vikas83 said:

It's really not that hard to find out, and the applications ask. If you lie, you're cooked. 

Do you really think Ivy League schools don't know about their graduates families?

And they all share info.

So if a kid doesn't want to list their parents names on the app, they get rejected outright? That's bananas.

[DEagle7]

Does the ruling ban any proxy demographics for race? Or just race itself? Seems like if schools still want to factor in race into their admissions they could find an easy work around even with this ruling. But maybe they addressed that. 

[The_Omega]

All that’s going to change is that minority applicants will be coached to play up/embellish the struggles they’ve faced because of their race. The activists running admissions aren’t going to change their selections just because the Supreme Court told them to.

[DrPhilly]

1 hour ago, Dave Moss said:

interesting

You're suddenly interested in nuance?

[Dave Moss]

1 minute ago, DrPhilly said:

You're suddenly interested in nuance?

I think keeping it for the military academies only is a subtle admission it works

[vikas83]

35 minutes ago, we_gotta_believe said:

So if a kid doesn't want to list their parents names on the app, they get rejected outright? That's bananas.

The local recruiter for your area interviews you and will ask. They'll also talk to your school, teachers, etc. It will come out you are the child of a graduate, and then you are dead to them.

[BBE]

1 minute ago, Dave Moss said:

I think keeping it for the military academies only is a subtle admission it works

Stop looking at the military academies as pure universities. The primary mission of the academies is not academic, it is military officer production.  The military academies exemption request is addressing force demographics.

[we_gotta_believe]

Just now, vikas83 said:

The local recruiter for your area interviews you and will ask. They'll also talk to your school, teachers, etc. It will come out you are the child of a graduate, and then you are dead to them.

Seems overly harsh to kids who are estranged from their parents or would rather not list them for other reasons.

[Dave Moss]

2 minutes ago, BBE said:

Stop looking at the military academies as pure universities. The primary mission of the academies is not academic, it is military officer production.  The military academies exemption request is addressing force demographics.

You’re so close to getting it…

[vikas83]

Just now, we_gotta_believe said:

Seems overly harsh to kids who are estranged from their parents or would rather not list them for other reasons.

My older niece hates my brother (he is getting divorced) and won't speak to him. Doesn't matter -- she's the child of an alumni. If he didn't give, she'd be screwed.

[we_gotta_believe]

Just now, vikas83 said:

My older niece hates my brother (he is getting divorced) and won't speak to him. Doesn't matter -- she's the child of an alumni. If he didn't give, she'd be screwed.

That's rough

[The_Omega]

43 minutes ago, The_Omega said:

All that’s going to change is that minority applicants will be coached to play up/embellish the struggles they’ve faced because of their race. The activists running admissions aren’t going to change their selections just because the Supreme Court told them to.

Moss laughed at it because that's what he does, but it's right there in the decision, and Biden just telegraphed it in his remarks

Quote

(f) Because Harvard’s and UNC’s admissions programs lack sufficiently focused and measurable objectives warranting the use of race, unavoidably employ race in a negative manner, involve racial stereotyping, and lack meaningful end points, those admissions programs cannot be reconciled with the guarantees of the Equal Protection Clause. At the same time, nothing prohibits universities from considering an applicant’s discussion of how race affected the applicant’s life, so long as that discussion is concretely tied to a quality of character or unique ability that the particular applicant can contribute to the university. Many universities have for too long wrongly concluded that the touchstone of an individual’s identity is not challenges bested, skills built, or lessons learned, but the color of their skin. This Nation’s constitutional history does not tolerate that choice.

 

[BBE]

17 minutes ago, Dave Moss said:

You’re so close to getting it…

Oh please elaborate.