didn't isis-k just shoot up a concert hall in russia ? weird, i thought isis was eliminated. 

6 minutes ago, MidMoFo said:

Sure. But for a little context to consider… there’s a real possibility that trump could be elected to a 2nd term with less than 50% of the actual votes. Do ALL Americans deserve to die if/when he does something retarded and not supported by 50%+ of the country?

Let's take apart this "context".  Bringing Trump into it is a deflection.   Secondly, there is no historical precedent of repeated violence against another nation state. The Palestinian people are not welcome in other Arabic countries.

Lastly, what can Trump do that would equate?  The presidency does not have the constitutional power to do anything like what Hamas has done.

 

5 hours ago, dawkins4prez said:

Hogwash. The Hamas strategy cannot be replicated almost anywhere else. The proximity to each others civilians, the unique power dynamics of Israel and gaza, the density of the urban population in Gaza, almost none of that is replicable anywhere else.  Secondly the kill ratio on 30k isn't an isolated data pushing the genocide narrative, its the millions in starvation and without medicine and displaced.

Even if that is the case the strategy still isn't acceptable in this particular Hamas/Gaza situation.

1 minute ago, DrPhilly said:

Even if that is the case the strategy still isn't acceptable in this particular Hamas/Gaza situation.

Agreed, it isn't.  But if you tell me the reason Israel's method of retaliation must be given no limits is to prevent this very particular tactic from becoming the norm all over the world you are committing several acts of logical fallacy.

28 minutes ago, BBE said:

Let's take apart this "context".  Bringing Trump into it is a deflection.   Secondly, there is no historical precedent of repeated violence against another nation state. The Palestinian people are not welcome in other Arabic countries.

Lastly, what can Trump do that would equate?  The presidency does not have the constitutional power to do anything like what Hamas has done.

 

It’s not a deflection because I’m not even trying to say the situations are the same. That’s not the argument at all. 
 

There are Palestinians who don’t support Hamas and they are in a real sheet show situation, can’t leave but can’t stay, can’t out Hamas to Israelis but can’t join Hamas. Are some more of them going to die because of actions they never supported. Yes. They are still humans, so we should make every effort to treat them as humans deserve to be treated, otherwise we’re no better than Hamas. 

 Is it easy? No
Does it make fighting Hamas more difficult? Yes

Will Hamas return the favor? No

But that’s what makes us right and them wrong, we’re the good guys and they’re the bad guys.

5 minutes ago, MidMoFo said:

It’s not a deflection because I’m not even trying to say the situations are the same. That’s not the argument at all. 
 

There are Palestinians who don’t support Hamas and they are in a real sheet show situation, can’t leave but can’t stay, can’t out Hamas to Israelis but can’t join Hamas. Are some more of them going to die because of actions they never supported. Yes. They are still humans, so we should make every effort to treat them as humans deserve to be treated, otherwise we’re no better than Hamas. 

 Is it easy? No
Does it make fighting Hamas more difficult? Yes

Will Hamas return the favor? No

But that’s what makes us right and them wrong, we’re the good guys and they’re the bad guys.

And how has that moral high ground worked out with Hamas or the PLO before?  It hasn't.   

 

 

I for one am shocked. Shocked I say.

 

 

Quote

 

The Hamas run Gaza Ministry of Health said on April 6 that it had "incomplete data” for 11,371 of the 33,091 Palestinian fatalities it claims to have documented. In a statistical report, the ministry notes that it considers an individual record to be incomplete if it is missing any of the following key data points: identity number, full name, date of birth, or date of death. The health ministry also released a report on April 3 that acknowledged the presence of incomplete data but did not define what it meant by "incomplete.” In that earlier report, the ministry acknowledged the incompleteness of 12,263 records. It is unclear why, after just three more days, the number fell to 11,371 — a decrease of more than 900 records.

Prior to its admissions of incomplete data, the health ministry asserted that the information in more than 15,000 fatality records had stemmed from "reliable media sources.” However, the ministry never identified the sources in question and Gaza has no independent media.

 

 

 

19 minutes ago, vikas83 said:

I for one am shocked. Shocked I say.

 

 

 

 

I wonder sometimes how many 17, 16, or even 15 year olds have been actively fighting for Hamas, and how they get classified in terms of casualties/fatalities. Does a Hamas fighter a week short of his 18th birthday get counted as a "child killed by Israel?" How many are/were there? It doesn't make any of this less tragic, but it would provide at least a bit of clarity.

1 hour ago, BBE said:

And how has that moral high ground worked out with Hamas or the PLO before?  It hasn't.   

 

 

Is it easy? No
Does it make fighting Hamas more difficult? Yes

Will Hamas return the favor? No

But that’s what makes us right and them wrong, we’re the good guys and they’re the bad guys.

if we’re just going to stoop to their level of barbarianism, what’s the point of claiming democracy and freedom is the better way? How would we be any better than hamas? Might as well just step out of the way, let the place go up in flames and claim the spoils when the fire goes out.

I'm a life long skeptic of "war crimes".  It's usually something the victor gets to imprison the loser for. But if you have any belief in it whatsoever, then it definitely isn't something you're allowed to eschew when the other side commits them. We can't build concentration camps with furnaces because they do it.

1 minute ago, MidMoFo said:

 

Is it easy? No
Does it make fighting Hamas more difficult? Yes

Will Hamas return the favor? No

But that’s what makes us right and them wrong, we’re the good guys and they’re the bad guys.

if we’re just going to stoop to their level of barbarianism, what’s the point of claiming democracy and freedom is the better way? How would we be any better than hamas? Might as well just step out of the way, let the place go up in flames and claim the spoils when the fire goes out.

Once again, show me historically where your moral high ground has worked.  It hasn't.   It is precisely your idea of morality in war that Hamas is exploiting.  The execution of a war is not about right and wrong.  That determination is best applied on whether or not to go to war.

 

I'm sorry, but the premise of your argument is woefully naive.

2 minutes ago, dawkins4prez said:

I'm a life long skeptic of "war crimes".  It's usually something the victor gets to imprison the loser for. But if you have any belief in it whatsoever, then it definitely isn't something you're allowed to eschew when the other side commits them. We can't build concentration camps with furnaces because they do it.

And yet we bombed civilian centers in Germany and dropped nukes on civilians in Japan.  

No one is proposing building furnaces.

4 minutes ago, dawkins4prez said:

I'm a life long skeptic of "war crimes".  It's usually something the victor gets to imprison the loser for. But if you have any belief in it whatsoever, then it definitely isn't something you're allowed to eschew when the other side commits them. We can't build concentration camps with furnaces because they do it.

What if the concentration camp is just a weekly retreat for kids with ADHD and the furnace is for firing clay in art and crafts?

7 minutes ago, BBE said:

And yet we bombed civilian centers in Germany and dropped nukes on civilians in Japan.  

No one is proposing building furnaces.

More importantly, the death of civilians, in and of itself, is not evidence of war crimes. Especially with an enemy that uses civilians as human shields. And where we have no reliable information on the numbers of civilians versus combatants killed.

More humanitarian aid is going in. But the idea that Israel must leave Hamas in power and not get back hostages because of collateral damage is insane. If there is concrete evidence of war crimes, then show it. Otherwise people are being useful pawns of Hamas.

23 minutes ago, MidMoFo said:

 

Is it easy? No
Does it make fighting Hamas more difficult? Yes

Will Hamas return the favor? No

But that’s what makes us right and them wrong, we’re the good guys and they’re the bad guys.

if we’re just going to stoop to their level of barbarianism, what’s the point of claiming democracy and freedom is the better way? How would we be any better than hamas? Might as well just step out of the way, let the place go up in flames and claim the spoils when the fire goes out.

IDF is kidnapping and raping women and children now???  

1 hour ago, vikas83 said:

I for one am shocked. Shocked I say.

 

 

 

 

Shocked that they admitted to it?

24 minutes ago, Arthur Jackson said:

What if the concentration camp is just a weekly retreat for kids with ADHD and the furnace is for firing clay in art and crafts?

You're just a crazed kilner.  

2 hours ago, Arthur Jackson said:

I wonder sometimes how many 17, 16, or even 15 year olds have been actively fighting for Hamas, and how they get classified in terms of casualties/fatalities. Does a Hamas fighter a week short of his 18th birthday get counted as a "child killed by Israel?" How many are/were there? It doesn't make any of this less tragic, but it would provide at least a bit of clarity.

Clarity is never their goal

2 hours ago, BBE said:

Once again, show me historically where your moral high ground has worked.  It hasn't.   It is precisely your idea of morality in war that Hamas is exploiting.  The execution of a war is not about right and wrong.  That determination is best applied on whether or not to go to war.

 

I'm sorry, but the premise of your argument is woefully naive.

The ONLY thing I disagree with you on is from the very first post I responded to. 
 

Once you elect a terrorist regime and that terrorist regime commits an act of war repeatedly and historically, you are subject to the consequences.  

 

Not all Palestinians voted to put Hamas into power, now they haven’t even voted for 20 years. They are not the subject of the consequences. Collateral damage is going to happen, but they should not be the target if you have any morality at all.

If we’re throwing morals out the window. Wtf are we waiting for? Stop all humanitarian aid and get it over with.

2 hours ago, paco said:

IDF is kidnapping and raping women and children now???  

Maybe, it’s a war zone, so who knows?

We do know they have slowed, stopped and fired missiles at a humanitarian aid convoy. Starved.

Intentionally killed civilians they knew weren’t Hamas? Probably.

4 hours ago, BBE said:

Let's take apart this "context".  Bringing Trump into it is a deflection.   Secondly, there is no historical precedent of repeated violence against another nation state. The Palestinian people are not welcome in other Arabic countries.

Lastly, what can Trump do that would equate?  The presidency does not have the constitutional power to do anything like what Hamas has done.

 

Fine use Biden then. How responsible are you for Biden's actions? How about your children 20 years from now? Enough to warrant starving them to death for drone strikes he called?

2 hours ago, vikas83 said:

]More humanitarian aid is going in. 

That's what you said last week, before they bombed Jose Andres' crew. You guys are trying hard to conflate some "extra deaths due to urban conflict", with the systematic displacement, starvation and negation of health services to a trapped civilian populace made up primarily of minors.  At this point in the conflict that is blocking the sun with your hand.

3 hours ago, MidMoFo said:

But that’s what makes us right and them wrong, we’re the good guys and they’re the bad guys.

More people need to get this. 

How have we not exterminated the "Death to America" Palestinian terrorists up in Michigan yet?

We don't even need permission to off these Fers. It should be a licensed hunting season up there. 🤬