10 minutes ago, Phillyterp85 said:

And how does one go about eliminating enemy combatants while leaving civilians unharmed along the way?  Especially when said enemy combatants are not separate from the civilian population out in some field somewhere meeting for battle.  Can you provide one example of a war in the past 200 years where thousands of civilians were not killed?  

 

I never said civilians wouldn't be killed, but there seems to be little effort being made to avoid civlians deaths at the level we're seeing and even active resistance to the humanitarian efforts necessary to care for the displaced populations.

until the desire to send the jewish people into extinction ceases and the Palestinians stop being used by other muslin countries to do the dirty work, there will never be peace. 

 

17 hours ago, UK Eagle said:

I think many of us would like to see Biden and his regime lead the effort to stop the current conflict through de-escalation techniques and negotiation with all sides. No one is asking or has asked him to solve the 2000+ year Middle East Crisis (that would be ridiculous). Just the current one will do.  Many of us are concerned at the lack of progress across the many conflicts that your, and my, tax payers money are funding at present. 

Why hasn't Biden (as leader of the free world) met the leaders of Israel or Hamas to put face to face pressure on them to negotiate a ceasefire?  It's not a hard question to answer, so I can only assume you can't or won't answer it.

I know when I think of Hamas, the first thing I think of are intelligent, reasonable people always willing to sit down and negotiate with Israel. 

38 minutes ago, Alpha_TATEr said:

until the desire to send the jewish people into extinction ceases and the Palestinians stop being used by other muslin countries to do the dirty work, there will never be peace. 

 

It works both ways, though. Plenty of Jews apparently want to eliminate the Palestinians, too. This is why we can't have nice things.

33 minutes ago, Gannan said:

I know when I think of Hamas, the first thing I think of are intelligent, reasonable people always willing to sit down and negotiate with Israel. 

Yet Israel absolutely can't go into Rafah to wipe them out or we pull our support.

 

Are you a full-on Two State Solution guy?

Israel and Palestine (run by Hamas)?

 

16 minutes ago, EaglesRocker97 said:

It works both ways, though. Plenty of Jews apparently want to eliminate the Palestinians, too. This is why we can't have nice things.

not that israel is completely innocent, but it doesn't work both ways equally. the jewish people do not raise their children to with the mantra of "from the river to the sea." 

again, that doesn't mean you won't have israeli aholes like the ones f'ng with the humanitarian aid, but i think it's a stretch to try and present it as an equal situation. 

1 hour ago, Mike31mt said:

Yet Israel absolutely can't go into Rafah to wipe them out or we pull our support.

 

Are you a full-on Two State Solution guy?

Israel and Palestine (run by Hamas)?

 

They can't solve the situation by murdering as many civilians as possible hoping they get a few Hamas members in the process. Biden asked Israel if they had a plan to minimize civilian casualties and Israel said no. 

Sadly Israel has no plan for Gaza after Hamas is gone because their PM is an incompetent boob. 

There already is a 2 state solution in place. The west bank is not run by Hamas. Again if you ever read a newspaper...or read anything I wouldn't have to explain these things to you. I should start charging you tuition. 

The correct after war plan likely needs the Israeli people to vote out Netanyahu. Here's how I think it should go.

1. Israel completes the operation in Rafah and cripples Hamas. The hostages are returned (or more sadly their bodies), and Hamas is removed from leadership in Gaza. Hopefully the leaders of Hamas are turned over to face trial in Israel (similar to Eichmann). 

2. The Israelis hand over security of Gaza to an Arab coalition lead by Saudi Arabia and Jordan. The Saudis and Jordanians won't tolerate Hamas' resurgence. 

3. A summit with all the regional players is called to devise a long term plan for a 2 state solution. The PA represents both Gaza and the West Bank. Have the Saudis, Egyptians and Jordanians at the table. The basic structure would have to include the dismantling of the Israeli settlements in the West Bank, which is why Netanyahu will need to be gone in the medium to long term. The real key here is will the Arab countries play a role in guaranteeing both Palestinian and Israeli security -- for the 1st time, that seems possible.

Hamas needs to be destroyed and held accountable for this to move forward. Then likely Netanyahu needs to be voted out. But there is an actual path here.

8 minutes ago, vikas83 said:

The correct after war plan likely needs the Israeli people to vote out Netanyahu. Here's how I think it should go.

1. Israel completes the operation in Rafah and cripples Hamas. The hostages are returned (or more sadly their bodies), and Hamas is removed from leadership in Gaza. Hopefully the leaders of Hamas are turned over to face trial in Israel (similar to Eichmann). 

2. The Israelis hand over security of Gaza to an Arab coalition lead by Saudi Arabia and Jordan. The Saudis and Jordanians won't tolerate Hamas' resurgence. 

3. A summit with all the regional players is called to devise a long term plan for a 2 state solution. The PA represents both Gaza and the West Bank. Have the Saudis, Egyptians and Jordanians at the table. The basic structure would have to include the dismantling of the Israeli settlements in the West Bank, which is why Netanyahu will need to be gone in the medium to long term. The real key here is will the Arab countries play a role in guaranteeing both Palestinian and Israeli security -- for the 1st time, that seems possible.

Hamas needs to be destroyed and held accountable for this to move forward. Then likely Netanyahu needs to be voted out. But there is an actual path here.

I've said this before but I have a real concern that Netanyahu doesn't want the war to end because he doesn't want to relinquish power. 

Just now, Gannan said:

I've said this before but I have a real concern that Netanyahu doesn't want the war to end because he doesn't want to relinquish power. 

For now, the civilian to combatant ratio is very reasonable, and Hamas needs to be soundly defeated. The criticism of Israel's prosecution of the war is ridiculous. But I agree there doesn't seem to be a lot of thought to the long term plan, and Netanyahu isn't constructive to that discussion. 

While it's likely never happening, I do think Israel would be justified in demanding that Qatar turn over Hamas leadership to face trial. 

If Hamas were to return the hostages and agree to an Arab peace keeping coalition, then I'd say Israel should withdraw. I don't know if Netanyahu would do that, but I would criticize him for not taking that deal. But as of now, there's no proposal that makes sense for Israel to accept. We are here because Hamas won't cut a deal.

University of Washington president calls for pro-Palestinian tent camp to break up after antisemitic graffiti found on campus

Quote

After protests escalated at the University of Washington – with "offensive graffiti across multiple buildings all over campus, some quite clearly both antisemitic and violent” – the school’s president is calling again for the voluntary dismantling of a pro-Palestinian encampment on the Seattle campus.

Students and faculty on Wednesday discovered the graffiti, which has "creat(ed) an unwelcome and fearful environment for many students, faculty and staff, especially those who are Jewish,” President Ana Mari Cauce said later that day in a statement, calling the situation "untenable.”

Cauce asked for the tent camp to break up, echoing her entreaty last week to demonstrators "to dismantle the encampment voluntarily for everyone’s safety.”

"Much to my dismay, given the relatively cordial tone of many of our discussions, the representatives also said the new graffiti is an intentional escalation to compel the University to agree to their demands,” she said Wednesday, adding university officials "have engaged sincerely and openly.”

Among protesters’ "escalating demands” is "a new department that would have an ‘anti-Zionist’ litmus test for faculty hiring,” Cauce said in the statement. "Many of these demands, especially the most recent, are contrary to academic freedom and/or to state or federal law.”

"While I strongly support free speech and peaceful protest, I also strongly support the rights of all our community members to live, learn and work without fear,” she said. "The University’s response to students’ calls for change will not be based on an encampment.”

At least a dozen protesters at UC Irvine detained: Classes at the University of California, Irvine, are remote Thursday after law enforcement personnel used zip ties to restrain demonstrators the prior evening at the University of California, Irvine, before escorting them away from a pro-Palestinian protest encampment and toward a parking lot.

"A group of several hundred protestors entered the UC Irvine campus and began surrounding” the school’s Physical Sciences Lecture Hall at around 2:30 p.m., Wednesday, the school said in an emergency update.

The university put out a mutual aid call to local law enforcement and got help from the Irvine Police Department and Orange County Sheriff’s Department, it said. Authorities cleared what looked like at least half of student protesters at the encampment, aerial footage from CNN affiliate KABC showed.

Pro-Palestinian protesters had set up a campus encampment on April 29, when the university also called in local law enforcement. Days later, the school’s chancellor said the university would continue to negotiate with student protesters demanding their university cut financial ties to Israel over the nation’s military action in Gaza.

Columbia University president sends message to graduates: Following the cancellation of the university-wide commencement ceremony after weeks of Gaza war protests, the president of New York’s Columbia University sent a message to graduates, wishing "that the challenges you faced during this difficult era will inspire you and make you stronger.”

Columbia cited security concerns in canceling the large event, a school official told CNN, and instead is holding smaller ones.

"I know that the last few weeks have been very difficult, and I am sorry that we were unable to celebrate your commencement in the traditional manner,” President Minouche Shafik said Wednesday in her message to grads.

Acknowledging "an extraordinary and tragic set of events” in the Middle East and that "as a great university, we must engage with these issues,” the polarization at Columbia has caused conflict on campus, she said.

"Canceling the traditional commencement ceremony was one of the toughest calls in a year of many tough calls,” Shafik wrote in an op-ed in the Columbia Daily Spectator.

Shafik’s top priority has been the safety of students, faculty and staff, she said.

"The conflict between the rights of pro-Palestinian protesters and the impact that their protests have had on some members of our Jewish community is what makes this moment singularly fraught,” she said.

Police remove protest encampment at DePaul University: Police in riot gear moved protesters away and dismantled tents Thursday morning at a pro-Palestinian protest encampment at DePaul University in Chicago, video from CNN affiliate WLS shows.

Two protesters accused of blocking nearby traffic were arrested, school spokesperson Russell Dorn told CNN, adding no arrests were made in the campus quad.

The decision to dismantle the encampment came after "good faith efforts” to negotiate with organizers, DePaul President Robert Manuel said.

"From the beginning of the encampment, I have said that we would protect free speech and the ability to dissent until it either prevented us from carrying out the operations of our university or threatened the safety of the members of our community,” Manuel said in an open letter to students and employees. "I am deeply saddened to say the encampment has crossed that line.”

University buildings have been vandalized with graffiti, and the cost to repair the physical damage to the quad, which will be "closed to everyone” until further notice, appears to be nearly $180,000, Manuel said in his letter.

The DePaul Divestment Coalition – a multiethnic, multifaith student group – has been calling on DePaul to "divest from killing and harm abroad” since its encampment was set up April 30.

"DePaul’s administration chose to use violence to disperse the encampment and unilaterally withdrew from negotiations,” Benjamin Meyer, an attorney representing the coalition said. "The students sent administration a calendar invite for a meeting on Monday, in which none of the administrators attended.”

 

Remember, these protests are about Gaza, not Jewish people

49 minutes ago, vikas83 said:

The correct after war plan likely needs the Israeli people to vote out Netanyahu. Here's how I think it should go.

1. Israel completes the operation in Rafah and cripples Hamas. The hostages are returned (or more sadly their bodies), and Hamas is removed from leadership in Gaza. Hopefully the leaders of Hamas are turned over to face trial in Israel (similar to Eichmann). 

2. The Israelis hand over security of Gaza to an Arab coalition lead by Saudi Arabia and Jordan. The Saudis and Jordanians won't tolerate Hamas' resurgence. 

3. A summit with all the regional players is called to devise a long term plan for a 2 state solution. The PA represents both Gaza and the West Bank. Have the Saudis, Egyptians and Jordanians at the table. The basic structure would have to include the dismantling of the Israeli settlements in the West Bank, which is why Netanyahu will need to be gone in the medium to long term. The real key here is will the Arab countries play a role in guaranteeing both Palestinian and Israeli security -- for the 1st time, that seems possible.

Hamas needs to be destroyed and held accountable for this to move forward. Then likely Netanyahu needs to be voted out. But there is an actual path here.

Looks like a good plan.  There is a weakness in that the next general election is in 2026.  A long time between now and then.

59 minutes ago, vikas83 said:

The correct after war plan likely needs the Israeli people to vote out Netanyahu. Here's how I think it should go.

1. Israel completes the operation in Rafah and cripples Hamas. The hostages are returned (or more sadly their bodies), and Hamas is removed from leadership in Gaza. Hopefully the leaders of Hamas are turned over to face trial in Israel (similar to Eichmann). 

2. The Israelis hand over security of Gaza to an Arab coalition lead by Saudi Arabia and Jordan. The Saudis and Jordanians won't tolerate Hamas' resurgence. 

3. A summit with all the regional players is called to devise a long term plan for a 2 state solution. The PA represents both Gaza and the West Bank. Have the Saudis, Egyptians and Jordanians at the table. The basic structure would have to include the dismantling of the Israeli settlements in the West Bank, which is why Netanyahu will need to be gone in the medium to long term. The real key here is will the Arab countries play a role in guaranteeing both Palestinian and Israeli security -- for the 1st time, that seems possible.

Hamas needs to be destroyed and held accountable for this to move forward. Then likely Netanyahu needs to be voted out. But there is an actual path here.

How do you move forward when Hamas won't be destroyed and Bibi won't be voted out?

1 minute ago, toolg said:

How do you move forward when Hamas won't be destroyed and Bibi won't be voted out?

Hamas will be seriously crippled, and then you need the Arab security force to keep them out of power. The Saudis and Jordanians will frankly help finish the job as they have no love lost for Hamas/Iran. I doubt the Qataris will hand over the leadership, but you task the Arab partners with ensuring security in Gaza. 

I don't know Israeli politics well enough, but there can't be a push for a special election/no confidence vote? I don't think Netanyahu enjoys great support.

15 minutes ago, vikas83 said:

Hamas will be seriously crippled, and then you need the Arab security force to keep them out of power. The Saudis and Jordanians will frankly help finish the job as they have no love lost for Hamas/Iran. I doubt the Qataris will hand over the leadership, but you task the Arab partners with ensuring security in Gaza. 

I don't know Israeli politics well enough, but there can't be a push for a special election/no confidence vote? I don't think Netanyahu enjoys great support.

I like where you are heading, but I just don't see an end to this.... Bibi the magician finds a way. Palestinians want what they can't have. We'll be lucky to get a ceasefire for a couple of years.

4 hours ago, EaglesRocker97 said:

 

I never said civilians wouldn't be killed, but there seems to be little effort being made to avoid civlians deaths at the level we're seeing and even active resistance to the humanitarian efforts necessary to care for the displaced populations.

Yes this talking point has been repeated many times but unfortunately for those repeating it, the data says otherwise.  

In typical urban warfare, civilians account for 67-90% of the total fatalities.   This means that for every single enemy combatant killed, there's typically 2 to 9 civilians killed.  

The civilian casualty rate in this conflict has so far been in the 50-60% rate.   So lower than the low end of typical urban warfare.  This is even more noteworthy when you consider how densely populated Gaza is and how the enemy hides among the civilian infrastructure.  

So how is there "little effort" being made to avoid civilian deaths when the civilian death rate is lower than typical urban warfare settings?  Is Israel just lucky?  

1 hour ago, Phillyterp85 said:

Yes this talking point has been repeated many times but unfortunately for those repeating it, the data says otherwise.  

In typical urban warfare, civilians account for 67-90% of the total fatalities.   This means that for every single enemy combatant killed, there's typically 2 to 9 civilians killed.  

The civilian casualty rate in this conflict has so far been in the 50-60% rate.   So lower than the low end of typical urban warfare.  This is even more noteworthy when you consider how densely populated Gaza is and how the enemy hides among the civilian infrastructure.  

So how is there "little effort" being made to avoid civilian deaths when the civilian death rate is lower than typical urban warfare settings?  Is Israel just lucky?  

 

Fair points

1 hour ago, Phillyterp85 said:

Yes this talking point has been repeated many times but unfortunately for those repeating it, the data says otherwise.  

In typical urban warfare, civilians account for 67-90% of the total fatalities.   This means that for every single enemy combatant killed, there's typically 2 to 9 civilians killed.  

The civilian casualty rate in this conflict has so far been in the 50-60% rate.   So lower than the low end of typical urban warfare.  This is even more noteworthy when you consider how densely populated Gaza is and how the enemy hides among the civilian infrastructure.  

So how is there "little effort" being made to avoid civilian deaths when the civilian death rate is lower than typical urban warfare settings?  Is Israel just lucky?  

Not only that, but the civilian fatality rate would be even lower if Hamas - and even some "non-Hamas" Palestinians - would stop going out of their way to maximize those casualties.

Word of the day:

Autogenocide

1 hour ago, Arthur Jackson said:

Not only that, but the civilian fatality rate would be even lower if Hamas - and even some "non-Hamas" Palestinians - would stop going out of their way to maximize those casualties.

Word of the day:

Autogenocide

Absolutely.  But one of Hamas' goals is to maximize civilian casualties.  The only arena Hamas can win in is the PR arena, in which they can spread propaganda making it seem like Israel isn't doing anything to minimize civilian casualties, and gullible news outlets and gullible world leaders eat up that propaganda and contribute to further spread.  Just like they did for all these months with the bogus civilian casualty numbers. 

25 minutes ago, Phillyterp85 said:

... gullible news outlets and gullible world leaders...

they're not gullible 

they're complicit 

13 hours ago, Phillyterp85 said:

Absolutely.  But one of Hamas' goals is to maximize civilian casualties.  The only arena Hamas can win in is the PR arena, in which they can spread propaganda making it seem like Israel isn't doing anything to minimize civilian casualties, and gullible news outlets and gullible world leaders eat up that propaganda and contribute to further spread.  Just like they did for all these months with the bogus civilian casualty numbers. 

You mean like when they tried to pin that hospital blast on the IDF a week after their terrorist attack that kicked this whole thing off?

8 hours ago, vikas83 said:

The correct after war plan likely needs the Israeli people to vote out Netanyahu. Here's how I think it should go.

1. Israel completes the operation in Rafah and cripples Hamas. The hostages are returned (or more sadly their bodies), and Hamas is removed from leadership in Gaza. Hopefully the leaders of Hamas are turned over to face trial in Israel (similar to Eichmann). 

2. The Israelis hand over security of Gaza to an Arab coalition lead by Saudi Arabia and Jordan. The Saudis and Jordanians won't tolerate Hamas' resurgence. 

3. A summit with all the regional players is called to devise a long term plan for a 2 state solution. The PA represents both Gaza and the West Bank. Have the Saudis, Egyptians and Jordanians at the table. The basic structure would have to include the dismantling of the Israeli settlements in the West Bank, which is why Netanyahu will need to be gone in the medium to long term. The real key here is will the Arab countries play a role in guaranteeing both Palestinian and Israeli security -- for the 1st time, that seems possible.

Hamas needs to be destroyed and held accountable for this to move forward. Then likely Netanyahu needs to be voted out. But there is an actual path here.

Why not just erase gaza and make it part of israel? Thats a real long term solution

 

10 hours ago, vikas83 said:

The correct after war plan likely needs the Israeli people to vote out Netanyahu.

Completely unrealistic.  If you've been paying attention to Israeli election cycles, ever since Avigor Liberman separated from Bibi, there was electoral instability in Israel resulting in multiple premature elections.  That was resolved in the last election when Likud was able to assemble a significant majority after the previous "change" government fell apart.  The current coalition isn't being disbanded.  They have enough MK's to stay in place.  And if it were to be disbanded, Israel would likely revert back to political instability again.