June 6, 20241 yr 13 minutes ago, BBE said: God, you are a hypocrite. Oh, yeah, I'm a hypocrite for showing Israelis doing exactly the kind of thing that people like to bring up when anyone defends Palestinian civilians. I think you have your definitions backward.
June 6, 20241 yr 4 minutes ago, EaglesRocker97 said: Also, "From the river to the sea" is a phrase generally used simply as a rallying cry for Palestinian independence, but you seem to want to equate it with terrorist sympathizing. If you want to equate it with bloody imperialist conquest, though, then that would sound exactly like what the far-right in Israel want to do. The two sides are much closer than you think, but you're too beholden to your religious biases. Religion itself is the real scourge here. dude, it literally means wiping Israel off the map. Iran & Hamas want Israel and the Jews exterminated. they're saying it out loud. you just don't want to believe it because it doesn't fit the narrative that the oppressed are always righteous. this is a twisted form of the noble savage myth.
June 6, 20241 yr 9 minutes ago, EaglesRocker97 said: Oh, yeah, I'm a hypocrite for showing Israelis doing exactly the kind of thing that people like to bring up when anyone defends Palestinian civilians. I think you have your definitions backward. No, actually since the beginnings of Israel and even prior the Arabs have sought to destroy them. That generates some animosity which will not go away until the Arabs stop attacking them. But, you do not acknowledge that because of their perceived location on the oppression spectrum.
June 6, 20241 yr 3 minutes ago, JohnSnowsHair said: dude, it literally means wiping Israel off the map. Iran & Hamas want Israel and the Jews exterminated. they're saying it out loud. you just don't want to believe it because it doesn't fit the narrative that the oppressed are always righteous. this is a twisted form of the noble savage myth. You said it better than I could.
June 6, 20241 yr 2 minutes ago, EaglesRocker97 said: I could say exactly that about the people in here being dismissive about the hell that Palestinians are living in, which is on orders of magnitude greater than October 7 by this point. who is being dismissive of them or their horrible situation? they are pawns being used by their own people, both from within and outside of gaza. it's disgusting to see it happen, but that is not on israel, and neither are the actions of hamas who have used them and put them in this position. this was a strategic move by hamas, not israel. seems weird that you would skip passed those nuances. why aren't you putting equal time into damming hamas for any of this? instead of playing sidekick to moss and blaming everything on israel? this whole deal sucks, but it doesn't take a history professor to know this sheet started well before the west ever got involved and that putting energy into defending the wrong side is wasteful.
June 6, 20241 yr 15 minutes ago, EaglesRocker97 said: Also, "From the river to the sea" is a phrase generally used simply as a rallying cry for Palestinian independence, MUST.NOT.BE.CRITICAL.OF.HAMAS.AT. ALL.
June 6, 20241 yr 17 minutes ago, JohnSnowsHair said: dude, it literally means wiping Israel off the map. Iran & Hamas want Israel and the Jews exterminated. they're saying it out loud. you just don't want to believe it because it doesn't fit the narrative that the oppressed are always righteous. this is a twisted form of the noble savage myth. I know I'm making solid points where someone reduces the argument to just saying the word "narrative." If people did a modicum of research, they'd learn that it's much more complicated than that. The main problem is that Hamas (mis)appropriated the slogan. Quote "From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free,” pro-Palestinian activists from London to Rome and Washington chanted in the volatile aftermath of Israel’s bloodiest day. Adopting or defending it can be costly for public figures, such as U.S. Rep. Rashida Tlaib, who was censured by the House on Tuesday. But like so much of the Mideast conflict, what the phrase means depends on who is telling the story — and which audience is hearing it. Many Palestinian activists say it’s a call for peace and equality after 75 years of Israeli statehood and decades-long, open-ended Israeli military rule over millions of Palestinians. Jews hear a clear demand for Israel’s destruction. SLOGAN ADOPTED BY HAMAS "From the river to the sea” echoes through pro-Palestinian rallies across campuses and cities, adopted by some as a call for a single state on the land between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean. By 2012, it was clear that Hamas had claimed the slogan in its drive to claim land spanning Israel, the Gaza Strip and the West Bank. "Palestine is ours from the river to the sea and from the south to the north,” Khaled Mashaal, the group’s former leader, said that year in a speech in Gaza celebrating the 25th anniversary of the founding of Hamas. "There will be no concession on any inch of the land.” The phrase also has roots in the Hamas charter. The story behind the phrase is much larger, and reaches across the decades. In the months before and during the 1948 war, an estimated 700,000 Palestinians fled or were expelled from what is now Israel. Many expected to return. Israel captured the West Bank, along with Gaza and east Jerusalem, in the 1967 war. In 2005, Israel withdrew from Gaza, and in 2007, Hamas claimed the tiny strip from the Palestinian Authority after a violent coup. WHAT JEWS SAY THEY HEAR Even the shorthand, "from the river to the sea,” echoes through pro-Palestinian protests, crackles across social media and is available on a variety of merchandise, from sweatshirts to candles. Ask Jewish people in London what’s so chilled them about the current spike in antisemitism, and many will cite what seems like the ubiquity of the slogan. It is a sign, they suggest, that there’s much to fear. "Have no doubt that Hamas is cheering those ‘from the river to the sea’ chants, because a Palestine between the river to the sea leaves not a single inch for Israel,” read an open letter signed by 30 Jewish news outlets around the world and released on Wednesday. And in the wake of Hamas’ killing of civilians on Oct. 7, they’re not buying that the chant is merely anti-Israel. Backed by groups such as the Anti-Defamation League, they say it’s inherently anti-Jewish. "No one can now say that in the eyes of Hamas, a hatred of Israel does not mean a hatred of all Jews,” said London resident Sarah Nachshen. "The slogans and placards and chants calling for the eradication of Israel and, indeed, all Jews have clearly shown this.” WHAT PALESTINIAN ACTIVISTS SAY Tlaib, D-Mich., who has family in the West Bank and is Congress’ only Palestinian-American, posted a video Nov. 3 that featured protesters chanting the slogan. No stranger to criticism over her rhetoric on the U.S.-Israel relationship, Tlaib defended the slogan. "From the river to the sea is an aspirational call for freedom, human rights, and peaceful coexistence, not death, destruction, or hate,” Tlaib tweeted, cautioning that conflating anti-Israel sentiment with antisemitism "silence(s) diverse voices speaking up for human rights.” Tweeted Yousef Munayyer, head of the Palestine/Israel Program and a senior Fellow at Arab Center Washington: "There isn’t a square inch of the land between the river and the sea where Palestinians have freedom, justice and equality, and it has never been more important to emphasize this than right now.” A TWO-STATE SOLUTION Most of the international community supports a two-state solution, which calls for the partition of the land. To many, though, decades of Israeli settlement expansion have made the reality of a two-state solution impossible. Right-wing Israelis have blurred the lines between Israel and the West Bank, where half a million people now live in settlements. Many in the Israeli government support the annexation of the West Bank, and official government maps often make no mention of the "green line” boundary between the two. And the original platform of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s party, Likud, published a version of the slogan, saying that between the sea and the Jordan River, "there will only be Israeli sovereignty.” THE RISK OF THE SLOGAN Using the phrase for public figures can be costly. Tlaib’s censure is a punishment one step short of expulsion from the House. Last month, Vienna police banned a pro-Palestinian demonstration, citing the fact that the phrase "from the river to the sea” was mentioned in invitations and characterizing it as a call to violence. And in Britain, the Labour party issued a temporary punishment to a member of Parliament, Andy McDonald, for using the phrase during a rally at which he called for a stop to bombardment. "We won’t rest until we have justice. Until all people, Israelis & Palestinians, between the river & the sea can live in peaceful liberty,” he tweeted. Then he explained: "These words should not be construed in any other way than they were intended, namely as a heart felt plea for an end to killings in Israel, Gaza, and the occupied West Bank, and for all peoples in the region to live in freedom without the threat of violence.” ___ https://apnews.com/article/river-sea-israel-gaza-hamas-protests-d7abbd756f481fe50b6fa5c0b907cd49 In practice, "From the river to the sea" sounds a lot like the kind of conquest that Israel has been gradually trying to carry out since 1948. It's pretty clear that both sides are being led by a minority of zealots hellbent on conquering and eliminating the other because of their own brand of religious extremism.
June 6, 20241 yr 5 minutes ago, Alpha_TATEr said: MUST.NOT.BE.CRITICAL.OF.HAMAS.AT. ALL. "Must make up things that the poster in no way said or implied because I have no logical retort and fail to comprehend the complexities of the situation."
June 6, 20241 yr 1 minute ago, EaglesRocker97 said: "Must make up things that the poster in no way said or implied because I have no logical retort and fail to comprehend the complexities of the situation." sure you didn't, superstar.
June 6, 20241 yr Just now, Alpha_TATEr said: sure you didn't, superstar. Read the A.P. article I just posted.
June 6, 20241 yr 9 minutes ago, EaglesRocker97 said: I know I'm making solid points where someone reduces the argument to just saying the word "narrative." If people did a modicum of research, they'd learn that it's much more complicated than that. The main problem is that Hamas (mis)appropriated the slogan. In practice, "From the river to the sea" sounds a lot like the kind of conquest that Israel has been gradually trying to carry out since 1948. It's pretty clear that both sides are being led by a minority of zealots hellbent on conquering and eliminating the other because of their own brand of religious extremism. When you're making excuses for a slogan that very clearly means one thing while you're begging it to be another, you're gonna have a bad day. Since 1948 violence has been regularly visited upon Jews and Israel by the Palestinians and Arabs in the region. If you want to know why zealots like Netanyahu have political power, maybe start recognizing that Israel is not the only state with agency in this conflict. Your view that it's a minority on either side that is perpetuating this feud is wishful thinking and completely inconsistent with reality.
June 6, 20241 yr 37 minutes ago, EaglesRocker97 said: The problem is that "sect of a-holes" in Israel are the ones governing. If your main goal was exacting retribution for Oct. 7 and crippling Hamas' capacity for aunching another in the future, then that's been achieved. I don't think more dead Palestinian babies will advance that cause any further and will probably work at odds with it 30 minutes ago, EaglesRocker97 said: This group is larger than you think and compromises the base of the group in power. I could say exactly that about the people in here being dismissive about the hell that Palestinians are living in, which is on orders of magnitude greater than October 7 by this point. Only 15% of Israelis want Netanyahu to keep job after Gaza war, poll finds
June 6, 20241 yr 17 minutes ago, Alpha_TATEr said: who is being dismissive of them or their horrible situation? they are pawns being used by their own people, both from within and outside of gaza. it's disgusting to see it happen, but that is not on israel, and neither are the actions of hamas who have used them and put them in this position. this was a strategic move by hamas, not israel. seems weird that you would skip passed those nuances. why aren't you putting equal time into damming hamas for any of this? instead of playing sidekick to moss and blaming everything on israel? this whole deal sucks, but it doesn't take a history professor to know this sheet started well before the west ever got involved and that putting energy into defending the wrong side is wasteful. I’ve never put all the blame on Israel. A huge part of the problem is the actions of the United States.
June 6, 20241 yr 14 minutes ago, Alpha_TATEr said: why aren't you putting equal time into damming hamas for any of this? instead of playing sidekick to moss and blaming everything on israel? What more is there to say about Hamas other than they're a bunch of scumbags? And what massive attack have they carried out recently? Israel has been absolutely hammering the entire Palestinian population for nearly 8 months now, over 35,000 dead in retribution for an attack by Hamas that killed around 1200 people. Why am I supposed to just ignore what Israel has been doing in all that time? And what point would it serve me to be in this forum talking about Hamas' misdeeds when we all agree that their a bunch of terrorists? The context is that 97% of the people here are absolving Israel for its commission of war crimes. If there was even a minimal attempt to see Israel's aggressions in the same light, I wouldn't feel compelled to try shedding light on it.
June 6, 20241 yr Author 13 minutes ago, EaglesRocker97 said: I know I'm making solid points where someone reduces the argument to just saying the word "narrative." If people did a modicum of research, they'd learn that it's much more complicated than that. The main problem is that Hamas (mis)appropriated the slogan. At the very best for you the phrase is a call for the elimination of the state of Israel. I find it quite ridiculous for you to hang onto this topic as being something that supports your position here. It does exactly the opposite.
June 6, 20241 yr 19 minutes ago, Alpha_TATEr said: who is being dismissive of them or their horrible situation? they are pawns being used by their own people, both from within and outside of gaza. it's disgusting to see it happen, but that is not on israel, and neither are the actions of hamas who have used them and put them in this position. this was a strategic move by hamas, not israel. seems weird that you would skip passed those nuances. why aren't you putting equal time into damming hamas for any of this? instead of playing sidekick to moss and blaming everything on israel? this whole deal sucks, but it doesn't take a history professor to know this sheet started well before the west ever got involved and that putting energy into defending the wrong side is wasteful. I've come to the conclusion they are the least qualified to look at the situation holistically.
June 6, 20241 yr 4 minutes ago, JohnSnowsHair said: Since 1948 violence has been regularly visited upon Jews and Israel by the Palestinians and Arabs in the region. If you want to know why zealots like Netanyahu have political power, maybe start recognizing that Israel is not the only state with agency in this conflict. You act as if Israel has just been chilling out and minding its own territory since 1948.
June 6, 20241 yr 5 minutes ago, JohnSnowsHair said: When you're making excuses for a slogan that very clearly means one thing while you're begging it to be another, you're gonna have a bad day. I just showed that it does not very clearly mean one thing, but Hamas has done a fine job of making people think that it does.
June 6, 20241 yr 1 minute ago, EaglesRocker97 said: You act as if Israel has just been chilling out and minding its own territory since 1948. No, I don't. I don't view either party here as noble actors. What I see is Israel fighting for its existence, and winning. That winning will mean innocent Palestinian victims. Which will make the modern American liberal look at the conflict, often without the context of nearly 100 years of history, and think Israel bad Palestine good (because the oppressed are always righteous and noble). YOU may have some sense of history here, but most do not, and those numbers feed the narrative that you have succumb to.
June 6, 20241 yr 21 minutes ago, paco said: I've come to the conclusion they are the least qualified to look at the situation holistically. When Dunning meets Kruger: A EMB Story
June 6, 20241 yr Israel struck a Gaza school, killing 33 people, 23 women and kids among them. They are going after soft targets, aid workers, food convoys, hospitals and schools. Neither side wants to end the war.
June 6, 20241 yr Just now, EaglesRocker97 said: When Dunning meets Kruger: An EMB Story 19 hours ago, paco said: You’re correct, just not the way you think you are
June 6, 20241 yr 2 minutes ago, Toastrel said: Israel struck a Gaza school, killing 33 people, 23 women and kids among them. They are going after soft targets, aid workers, food convoys, hospitals and schools. Neither side wants to end the war. And this is why it's so difficult to discern what is going on there. One side saying its 100% civilians, other saying it was a Hamas compound. And sadly, the pattern has had the truth somewhere in the middle.
June 6, 20241 yr 1 minute ago, Toastrel said: Israel struck a Gaza school, killing 33 people, 23 women and kids among them. They are going after soft targets, aid workers, food convoys, hospitals and schools. Neither side wants to end the war. never again vs from the river to the sea. it's been going on since biblical times, and it will be the same in another 5,000 years. the hate is beyond anything we can really understand.
June 6, 20241 yr 5 minutes ago, Alpha_TATEr said: never again vs from the river to the sea. it's been going on since biblical times, and it will be the same in another 5,000 years. the hate is beyond anything we can really understand. you have a real sense of history about this after consulting your bible.
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