October 19, 20231 yr 12 minutes ago, Gannan said: Yeah storming the capitol cant be just a regular thing now. One, pro-Palestinian protesters didn't storm the Capitol. They got into a Congressional office building next door. Two. I don't know how they get in there without help from somebody who is credentialed. Whoever helped them should be punished to the fullest extent of the law. 3 minutes ago, ToastJenkins said: Too late Sadly it is like we entered a stage of history where protesters interrupting government is going to be commonplace.
October 19, 20231 yr 3 minutes ago, toolg said: We may never know whose rocket landed in the hospital or how it got there. There are hundreds flying every day in each direction from all sides of the conflict. Not only Hamas or Israel, other parties like Islamic Jihad has joined the fight. Perhaps it was their rocket. Perhaps Israel intercepted it and it landed at the hospital. It could be something else. By the time we figure out all the details, likely other atrocities will have taken place. This is war. I feel like Hamas took this solution off of the table with their attack on Israel. Maybe there is a more diplomatic way to remove Hamas from any plan for peace; can they be removed from any proposed-Palestinian state? It seems Israel doesn't think it can happen without military action. Hamas/Iran/Russia planned this exactly as horrible and atrocious as shocking as they could make it. When the attack happened the Arab nations condemned Hamas and stood with Israel. So much so that everyone was fine with Israel's massacre of 4k palestinians in a week (and counting). But even within this savage moral code of the desert sword prophets there are limits. Hamas/Iran/Russia did this specifically knowing Israel would over extend global and Arab goodwill. They did this knowing it would further exhaust the coffers of the Western alliance and they did this most of all knowing it would cause a split between the US and Europe both transnationally and from within. Israel needs to be put back on its leash because what they will undo isn't even going to fix their problem, just make it worse.
October 19, 20231 yr 4 minutes ago, toolg said: One, pro-Palestinian protesters didn't storm the Capitol. They got into a Congressional office building next door. Two. I don't know how they get in there without help from somebody who is credentialed. Whoever helped them should be punished to the fullest extent of the law. Sadly it is like we entered a stage of history where protesters interrupting government is going to be commonplace. Hasnt it always been commonplace? Just ebbs and flows. Dont fall into a recency bias trap
October 19, 20231 yr 2 minutes ago, dawkins4prez said: Hamas/Iran/Russia planned this exactly as horrible and atrocious as shocking as they could make it. When the attack happened the Arab nations condemned Hamas and stood with Israel. So much so that everyone was fine with Israel's massacre of 4k palestinians in a week (and counting). But even within this savage moral code of the desert sword prophets there are limits. Hamas/Iran/Russia did this specifically knowing Israel would over extend global and Arab goodwill. They did this knowing it would further exhaust the coffers of the Western alliance and they did this most of all knowing it would cause a split between the US and Europe both transnationally and from within. Israel needs to be put back on its leash because what they will undo isn't even going to fix their problem, just make it worse. Nope. All backwards. They need to be let off the leash and finally do what it takes to end this.
October 19, 20231 yr 2 minutes ago, ToastJenkins said: Hasnt it always been commonplace? Just ebbs and flows. Dont fall into a recency bias trap In public? Sure. In their own offices? That I don't remember.
October 19, 20231 yr 2 minutes ago, dawkins4prez said: Hamas/Iran/Russia planned this exactly as horrible and atrocious as shocking as they could make it. When the attack happened the Arab nations condemned Hamas and stood with Israel. So much so that everyone was fine with Israel's massacre of 4k palestinians in a week (and counting). But even within this savage moral code of the desert sword prophets there are limits. Hamas/Iran/Russia did this specifically knowing Israel would over extend global and Arab goodwill. They did this knowing it would further exhaust the coffers of the Western alliance and they did this most of all knowing it would cause a split between the US and Europe both transnationally and from within. Israel needs to be put back on its leash because what they will undo isn't even going to fix their problem, just make it worse. The problem for Hamas/Iran/Russia is that likely it won't result in any gain for them on their northern front. Sure, you could argue it creates a schism between us and Europe, but we have a long standing relationship and it isn't going to make a dent in Ukraine. If anything, it gives us an easier spending package to continue to fund Ukraine (especially if we end up with a sane Speaker). And of course Europe has no motivation for taking their eyes off the ball and focusing on the middle east.
October 19, 20231 yr 21 hours ago, we_gotta_believe said: Sling Blade: "Biden negotiates with terrorists and gave an entire country to the Taliban!" me: "Trump was the one who agreed to the deal and even released 5,000 Taliban prisoners as part of it." Sling Blade: "Yeah because he's not a warmonger ghoul and he had no choice to negotiate with terrorists! We should be thanking Trump for giving the terrorists what they wanted!" me: what does Logan Roy have to do with it?
October 19, 20231 yr 15 hours ago, Mike030270 said: Lol I'll add a disclaimer because I'm sure feathers will be ruffled. I don't agree with the tweet I'm rather behind in this thread, but this wasn't at the Capitol building. It's at the Cannon House Office building, which is where many House members have their offices. 300 protesters were arrested including 3 charged with assaulting an officer.
October 19, 20231 yr 4 minutes ago, VanHammersly said: The problem for Hamas/Iran/Russia is that likely it won't result in any gain for them on their northern front. Sure, you could argue it creates a schism between us and Europe, but we have a long standing relationship and it isn't going to make a dent in Ukraine. If anything, it gives us an easier spending package to continue to fund Ukraine (especially if we end up with a sane Speaker). And of course Europe has no motivation for taking their eyes off the ball and focusing on the middle east. A prolonged and spreading war in the region, which is exactly as far as Israel will take this if you let them, absolutely positively does have the potential to create a schism that puts the ukraine alliance in jeopardy. All of these countries are barely holding down the protectionist pro Russia "doves' as is. It also puts the world a wet fart in Taiwan from real big trouble.
October 19, 20231 yr 14 minutes ago, ToastJenkins said: Nope. All backwards. They need to be let off the leash and finally do what it takes to end this. That means numerous operations and excursions in other arab countries. Those guys ain't in palestine, where israel is about to go door to door on the warpath.
October 19, 20231 yr 7 minutes ago, dawkins4prez said: That means numerous operations and excursions in other arab countries. Those guys ain't in palestine, where israel is about to go door to door on the warpath. Nope again just take gaza. Detain everyone and clean it out so it can be rebuilt as an integrated part of israel. dont need to push any border
October 19, 20231 yr 1 hour ago, we_gotta_believe said: It absolutely matters, just like it mattered when Iran accidentally downed the Ukraine airliner a few years ago, initially blaming it on an american SAM. You think nothing would've changed if it was actually us that did it instead? The only reason they eventually fessed up is because we had them dead to rights with radar data. Apples to Oranges. This isn't an isolated international incident, it's a war going on inside a populated city. If israel didn't blow up the hospital by accident then they will blow up a school later in the week. it's inevitbale.
October 19, 20231 yr 1 hour ago, Gannan said: Yeah storming the capitol cant be just a regular thing now. Storming, no. But what about meandering about?
October 19, 20231 yr 28 minutes ago, ToastJenkins said: Nope again just take gaza. Detain everyone and clean it out so it can be rebuilt as an integrated part of israel. dont need to push any border What exactly are you doing with the 2m residents of the Gaza strip in this scenario?
October 19, 20231 yr 1 hour ago, dawkins4prez said: A prolonged and spreading war in the region, which is exactly as far as Israel will take this if you let them, absolutely positively does have the potential to create a schism that puts the ukraine alliance in jeopardy. All of these countries are barely holding down the protectionist pro Russia "doves' as is. It also puts the world a wet fart in Taiwan from real big trouble. Israel isn't trying to start a full scale war across the whole ME. They have very specific territory they're interested in. Anything can happen it's early still but there's no reason to believe that their goal is for this to drag on and spread across the region. And short of that, I don't see any real effect on Ukraine or any advantage in Ukraine for the Hamas/Iran/Russian alliance (which Biden should really give a name to by the way. Axis of Evil's already taken unfortunately). Europe's not going to stop providing weapons and aid and neither are we unless Republicans are able to sabotage it.
October 19, 20231 yr 2 minutes ago, dawkins4prez said: What exactly are you doing with the 2m residents of the Gaza strip in this scenario? Bus em to NYC.
October 19, 20231 yr 2 minutes ago, VanHammersly said: Israel isn't trying to start a full scale war across the whole ME. They have very specific territory they're interested in. Anything can happen it's early still but there's no reason to believe that they're goal is for this to drag on and spread across the region. And short of that, I don't see any real effect on Ukraine or any advantage in Ukraine for the Hamas/Iran/Russian alliance (which Biden should really give a name to by the way. Axis of Evil's already taken unfortunately). Europe's not going to stop providing weapons and aid and neither are we unless Republicans are able to sabotage it. Republicans and the right wings of every democracy across Europe and the globe. Start funding two wars at the same time, the 2nd one in which the moral high ground is far, far less obvious and you have given them all the wind their sails need heading into the next elections.
October 19, 20231 yr 25 minutes ago, dawkins4prez said: What exactly are you doing with the 2m residents of the Gaza strip in this scenario? All those islamic countries that stand with them can have em
October 19, 20231 yr 10 minutes ago, dawkins4prez said: Apples to Oranges. This isn't an isolated international incident, it's a war going on inside a populated city. If israel didn't blow up the hospital by accident then they will blow up a school later in the week. it's inevitbale. It's an intractable situation. Israel has been under attack by Palestinian arabs since the day it was chartered. It has spent its entire existence being attacked by groups like Hamas. Palestinians and other Arab nations rejected a 2-state model from the very beginning, and its intransigence on this has given rise to hard-line corrupt crap-sandwiches like Netanyahu. A rational actor, in the face of an overwhelmingly superior military force - which since 1967 Israel has proven to be for not only Palestine but the entire Arab world - would not keep picking fights with them. But Palestine and groups like Hamas have not been rational actors; they've been periodically attacking Israel for years, giving Israel casus belli to invade Palestine many times over. Inevitably a nation in Israel's situation is going to go too far at times. No nation is without sin. But to objectively observe this situation and believe Israel is more in the wrong simply because they're better at war than Hamas is simple naivete. Peace in Palestine is elusive because Palestinians reject Israel's right to exist. It's as simple as that.
October 19, 20231 yr 2 minutes ago, dawkins4prez said: Republicans and the right wings of every democracy across Europe and the globe. Start funding two wars at the same time, the 2nd one in which the moral high ground is far, far less obvious and you have given them all the wind their sails need heading into the next elections. That may fly in Europe but it isn't flying here. It really depends on whether or not that right wing supports Israel. Republicans here got the legs cut out from under their argument against Ukraine when they embraced helping Israel. Now they either have to admit they just flat out support Russia in their fight against Ukraine or fold and admit we need to help our allies when necessary, including Ukraine.
October 19, 20231 yr 53 minutes ago, JohnSnowsHair said: It's an intractable situation. Israel has been under attack by Palestinian arabs since the day it was chartered. It has spent its entire existence being attacked by groups like Hamas. Palestinians and other Arab nations rejected a 2-state model from the very beginning, and its intransigence on this has given rise to hard-line corrupt crap-sandwiches like Netanyahu. A rational actor, in the face of an overwhelmingly superior military force - which since 1967 Israel has proven to be for not only Palestine but the entire Arab world - would not keep picking fights with them. But Palestine and groups like Hamas have not been rational actors; they've been periodically attacking Israel for years, giving Israel casus belli to invade Palestine many times over. Inevitably a nation in Israel's situation is going to go too far at times. No nation is without sin. But to objectively observe this situation and believe Israel is more in the wrong simply because they're better at war than Hamas is simple naivete. Peace in Palestine is elusive because Palestinians reject Israel's right to exist. It's as simple as that. Israel has, on the whole, the moral high ground. That's exactly why even the Arab nations looked the other way while Israel massacred 4k palestinians (AND COUNTING!). But at some # they lose the high ground and they lose in the court of global public opinion. i don't know where that number is, 50k? 100k? But that's where they will be at in a few months if they go in there guns ablaze with no plan or objective other than the utterly hopeless and elusive "destroy Hamas and all palestinian resistance"
October 19, 20231 yr 19 minutes ago, VanHammersly said: That may fly in Europe but it isn't flying here. It really depends on whether or not that right wing supports Israel. Republicans here got the legs cut out from under their argument against Ukraine when they embraced helping Israel. Now they either have to admit they just flat out support Russia in their fight against Ukraine or fold and admit we need to help our allies when necessary, including Ukraine. Oh really? i'm sorry you're talking about the country where Jim Jordan is a Brotherly Shove away from being speaker of the house? The same country where Trump is looking like a 50-50 bet for POTUS 2024? THAT country?
October 19, 20231 yr 1 hour ago, dawkins4prez said: Apples to Oranges. This isn't an isolated international incident, it's a war going on inside a populated city. If israel didn't blow up the hospital by accident then they will blow up a school later in the week. it's inevitbale. And if they do, they should rightly be admonished for it. Nobody is pretending innocent civilians won't inevitably die at the hands of the IDF. That's precisely why this Hamas attack was such a F'ing bummer, because everyone knows the escalation that's about to ensue. And you're right that the hospital is but one of many dominos that are bound to fall in the wake of this mess. But until France or whoever else comes up with some actual intel or hard data, I'm gonna find it hard to take Hamas' word for it considering the attack on thousands of civilians they just carried out and proudly pounded their chest over. At best, all you can say is that we don't have enough information to draw any conclusions on who was at fault for the hospital being hit, but if you're gonna skip all that and reach straight for the "Our government is lying to us" straw without anything to back it up, then I'm afraid you'll have to do it alone.
October 19, 20231 yr 1 minute ago, dawkins4prez said: Oh really? i'm sorry you're talking about the country where Jim Jordan is a Brotherly Shove away from being speaker of the house? The same country where Trump is looking like a 50-50 bet for POTUS 2024? THAT country? Yeah, they're all hypocrites and lunatics, but we're not talking about the court of public opinion. We're talking about passing bills through the House, not winning over every Republican in the country. It's a weird line you're walking where in one thread you're taking the position that Ukranian funding is in danger and then in the other thread you're arguing that Dems shouldn't work with the right to put a sensible speaker in charge, which, if they took that position, would put Ukranian funding in danger. It's a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy.
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