11 hours ago, TEW said:

And this is the mistake we should have learned in Afghanistan and Iraq.

All people are not the same. You can’t compare the Japanese or Germans to the Palestinians or Middle Easterners in general. They have radically different cultures, religions, and dispositions as a people.

Expecting the Palestinians to just "get on board” the way the Germans or Japanese did after WW2 is foolish. They won’t, and we shouldn’t pretend it’s possible that they will.

Cultural differences no doubt. But those wars you cite were fought under the hearts and minds nonsense.

humans form their opinions based on their experiences. You want foundational change that lasts for generations? It has to be a complete annihilation.

 

At least you’re admitting the only path to what you want is genocide.  Unlike some of the more duplicitous posters here 

MORE THAN 250 ATTACKS ON GAZA HEALTH CARE SYSTEM, WORLD HEALTH ORGANIZATION SAYS

UNITED NATIONS — The World Health Organization has verified more than 250 attacks on hospitals, clinics, patients and ambulances in Gaza since Hamas’ incursion into Israel on Oct. 7 — as well as 25 attacks on health care in Israel.

In Gaza, the "health system is on its knees” and the situation on the ground "is impossible to describe,” WHO Director-General Dr. Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus told an emergency meeting of the U.N. Security Council.

"As we speak, there are reports of firing outside the al-Shifa and Rantisi hospitals,” he said, adding that Palestinian health workers were still saving lives despite being "directly in the firing line.”

Last week saw attacks on five hospitals in one day in Gaza, Ghebreyesus said, and in the past 48 hours four hospitals with some 430 beds were put out of action.

He said half of the Gaza Strip’s 36 hospitals and two-thirds of its primary health care centers are not functioning, and facilities that are functioning "are operating way beyond their capacities.”

2 hours ago, Dave Moss said:

...genocide...

I don't think killing Italians is the solution here. 

3 hours ago, ToastJenkins said:

Cultural differences no doubt. But those wars you cite were fought under the hearts and minds nonsense.

humans form their opinions based on their experiences. You want foundational change that lasts for generations? It has to be a complete annihilation.

 

I disagree with this. I think if the world was putting any pressure at all on the Palestinians to fundamentally denounce Hamas and their methods before supporting their cause blindly we might see some change.

Instead we are really not hearing many calls to remove a horrible militant group from power. People seem to be suggesting that Israel not respond to the attacks on Oct 7 is the correct thing to do. Let the Palestinian people go back to living in their slums under oppressive and corrupt leadership. Their lives in Gaza were horrible under Hamas. Now their lives are even worse because of Hamas. I can't understand how this is not the number one issue here. Hamas does not care about the people in Gaza. They are considered necessary losses in their war against the West.

There is no part of me that considers what is happening in Gaza to be good or necessary. I understand why it's happening and that is fundamental in my response. Hamas is currently more dangerous to the Palestinians than Kim Jung Un is to the North Koreans. The former lashes out at its neighbor and causes a response that kills thousands. The latter flexes his muscles but knows he will cease to exist should he actually throw a punch. In both cases the people under these regimes are suffering 100 percent of the time regardless. But Mr Un isn't getting his people bombed to oblivion.

As I posted previously. I can get behind the Palestinian people as soon as they get behind the removal of Hamas from power. Not only the removal but the complete dismantling of Hamas as a group. If they too would rise against this Terrorist Organization and denounce the use of terror as a solution to their problems this war will be over a lot sooner.

It may also have dramatic geopolitical effects for the entire Extreamst Jehadi movement across the globe. That alone could improve the lives of Muslims in many nations.

To those protesting or supporting the Palestinians These are just a few suggestions. Israel is one of the strongest military nations on the planet. You're not cleaning them out from the river to the sea. Get over it and learn to work together. Terrorism is not your answer to this problem. For a little perspective they have been doing this for 35 plus years and gained ZERO ground. In fact they have lost land, lost opportunity and left themselves without a Palestinian State at least 3 times.

So at the end of the day I say this. My support is not easily gained. In this case I need something back. I need to see an absolute decree against terrorist groups and organizations from the Palestinians. They need to be a part of the solution. I won't support them blindly just because they are in a bad situation. Hamas put them in that situation. Focus the anger on the problem. The sooner they rise up in defense of themselves the sooner this would end.

I don't think total annihilation is necessary. But there is a very clear path that needs to be followed.

 

 

 

 

9 minutes ago, EagleFan85 said:

I disagree with this. I think if the world was putting any pressure at all on the Palestinians to fundamentally denounce Hamas and their methods before supporting their cause blindly we might see some change.

Instead we are really not hearing many calls to remove a horrible militant group from power. People seem to be suggesting that Israel not respond to the attacks on Oct 7 is the correct thing to do. Let the Palestinian people go back to living in their slums under oppressive and corrupt leadership. Their lives in Gaza were horrible under Hamas. Now their lives are even worse because of Hamas. I can't understand how this is not the number one issue here. Hamas does not care about the people in Gaza. They are considered necessary losses in their war against the West.

There is no part of me that considers what is happening in Gaza to be good or necessary. I understand why it's happening and that is fundamental in my response. Hamas is currently more dangerous to the Palestinians than Kim Jung Un is to the North Koreans. The former lashes out at its neighbor and causes a response that kills thousands. The latter flexes his muscles but knows he will cease to exist should he actually throw a punch. In both cases the people under these regimes are suffering 100 percent of the time regardless. But Mr Un isn't getting his people bombed to oblivion.

As I posted previously. I can get behind the Palestinian people as soon as they get behind the removal of Hamas from power. Not only the removal but the complete dismantling of Hamas as a group. If they too would rise against this Terrorist Organization and denounce the use of terror as a solution to their problems this war will be over a lot sooner.

It may also have dramatic geopolitical effects for the entire Extreamst Jehadi movement across the globe. That alone could improve the lives of Muslims in many nations.

To those protesting or supporting the Palestinians These are just a few suggestions. Israel is one of the strongest military nations on the planet. You're not cleaning them out from the river to the sea. Get over it and learn to work together. Terrorism is not your answer to this problem. For a little perspective they have been doing this for 35 plus years and gained ZERO ground. In fact they have lost land, lost opportunity and left themselves without a Palestinian State at least 3 times.

So at the end of the day I say this. My support is not easily gained. In this case I need something back. I need to see an absolute decree against terrorist groups and organizations from the Palestinians. They need to be a part of the solution. I won't support them blindly just because they are in a bad situation. Hamas put them in that situation. Focus the anger on the problem. The sooner they rise up in defense of themselves the sooner this would end.

I don't think total annihilation is necessary. But there is a very clear path that needs to be followed.

 

 

 

 

Sounds like you think Palestinians should just accept Israel taking more of their land because Israel is a military power.  You do understand that’s the whole reason groups like Hamas exist though, right?  Because in your post, you don’t seem to be making that connection.

3 hours ago, Dave Moss said:

Sounds like you think Palestinians should just accept Israel taking more of their land because Israel is a military power.  You do understand that’s the whole reason groups like Hamas exist though, right?  Because in your post, you don’t seem to be making that connection.

Nope. I just think doing the same thing over and over while expecting different results is the definition of insanity.

Terrorism didn't work in the 80s. It didn't work in the 90s. It didn't work in the 2000s, 2010s, and it's not going to work in the 2020s.

Hamas actually assassinated members of the PLO who were working for peace and collaboration with Israel. It's like shooting yourself in the nuts over and over again but still expecting to be able to bust a nut.

3 hours ago, Dave Moss said:

At least you’re admitting the only path to what you want is genocide.  Unlike some of the more duplicitous posters here 

Nice try but no. You annihilate hamas and yes this will include destroying their tunnels and their terrorism infrastructure but you have to kill them and their leaders, accepting there will be collateral damage and some of it might be ugly. War is ugly, but Hamas kicked this off

59 minutes ago, EagleFan85 said:

I disagree with this. I think if the world was putting any pressure at all on the Palestinians to fundamentally denounce Hamas and their methods before supporting their cause blindly we might see some change.

Instead we are really not hearing many calls to remove a horrible militant group from power. People seem to be suggesting that Israel not respond to the attacks on Oct 7 is the correct thing to do. Let the Palestinian people go back to living in their slums under oppressive and corrupt leadership. Their lives in Gaza were horrible under Hamas. Now their lives are even worse because of Hamas. I can't understand how this is not the number one issue here. Hamas does not care about the people in Gaza. They are considered necessary losses in their war against the West.

There is no part of me that considers what is happening in Gaza to be good or necessary. I understand why it's happening and that is fundamental in my response. Hamas is currently more dangerous to the Palestinians than Kim Jung Un is to the North Koreans. The former lashes out at its neighbor and causes a response that kills thousands. The latter flexes his muscles but knows he will cease to exist should he actually throw a punch. In both cases the people under these regimes are suffering 100 percent of the time regardless. But Mr Un isn't getting his people bombed to oblivion.

As I posted previously. I can get behind the Palestinian people as soon as they get behind the removal of Hamas from power. Not only the removal but the complete dismantling of Hamas as a group. If they too would rise against this Terrorist Organization and denounce the use of terror as a solution to their problems this war will be over a lot sooner.

It may also have dramatic geopolitical effects for the entire Extreamst Jehadi movement across the globe. That alone could improve the lives of Muslims in many nations.

To those protesting or supporting the Palestinians These are just a few suggestions. Israel is one of the strongest military nations on the planet. You're not cleaning them out from the river to the sea. Get over it and learn to work together. Terrorism is not your answer to this problem. For a little perspective they have been doing this for 35 plus years and gained ZERO ground. In fact they have lost land, lost opportunity and left themselves without a Palestinian State at least 3 times.

So at the end of the day I say this. My support is not easily gained. In this case I need something back. I need to see an absolute decree against terrorist groups and organizations from the Palestinians. They need to be a part of the solution. I won't support them blindly just because they are in a bad situation. Hamas put them in that situation. Focus the anger on the problem. The sooner they rise up in defense of themselves the sooner this would end.

I don't think total annihilation is necessary. But there is a very clear path that needs to be followed.

 

 

 

 

Where i think that falls apart is they have to manage the immediate threat to them, which has always been Hamas. You cant expect them to denounce hamas bc they will get shot if they do. 

13 hours ago, Dave Moss said:

At least you’re admitting the only path to what you want is genocide.  Unlike some of the more duplicitous posters here 

So if I'm following correctly:

CVON Poster: Hamas needs to be eliminated

Moss: **SQUAK** Genocide!!!! **SQUAK**

 

 

CVON Poster: Hamas' stated goal is to eradicate Israel and kill as many Jews as possible in the process

Moss's inner monologue: Whopper, Whopper, Junior, Double, Triple Whopper, Flame-grilled taste with perfect toppers...

20 hours ago, TEW said:

I mean, sure, you could slaughter all of the Palestinians, effectively commit genocide, and "end” it.

I'll take lazy narratives for $500 Alex...

17 hours ago, Dave Moss said:

If only they can endure committing heinous crimes against humanity…

My favorite part about your lazy narrative is that Hamas has no culpability in this whatsoever. 

1 minute ago, ToastJenkins said:

Where i think that falls apart is they have to manage the immediate threat to them, which has always been Hamas. You cant expect them to denounce hamas bc they will get shot if they do. 

And this is the situation in Gaza.

But the millions of Palestinians across the world along with the millions of people protesting with them are not going to get shot. Right now Hamas is winning the propaganda battle. No one is calling on Hamas to put down their weapons that's for sure.

I would also suggest that any reports or documented videos of Hamas firing on Palestinian civilians would be catastrophic in regards to the global information war they are currently fighting. This war is not being taught with guns and bombs alone.

1 hour ago, Dave Moss said:

Sounds like you think Palestinians should just accept Israel taking more of their land because Israel is a military power.  You do understand that’s the whole reason groups like Hamas exist though, right?  Because in your post, you don’t seem to be making that connection.

Was never their land

4 hours ago, Dave Moss said:

At least you’re admitting the only path to what you want is genocide.  Unlike some of the more duplicitous posters here 

No, he said eradicate Hamas. You have resigned yourself to thinking that using civilians as human shields is a legitimate and moral tactic. It's the second reason you're so wrong on this. The first reason is while you are throwing around the accusation of genocide by the Israelis, you are supporting a people and government who is actually built on the idea of genocide which bothers you not at all. 

Realistically if the Soviet Union wasn’t selling weapons to the Arabs we wouldn’t be having any discussions about Israel-Palestine today. But since the Soviets could use useful idiots, Palestine has been a talking point of the leftists since the 60s. 

52 minutes ago, Gannan said:

I'll take lazy narratives for $500 Alex...

Not lazy at all. As long as there are Palestinians in Gaza you’re going to have a blood feud.

1 hour ago, Gannan said:

My favorite part about your lazy narrative is that Hamas has no culpability in this whatsoever. 

Whopper, Whopper, Junior, Double…

6 minutes ago, paco said:

Whopper, Whopper, Junior, Double…

If Israel wanted to actually commit atrocities in Gaza, they'd blare those BK commercials on repeat through giant loudspeakers

 

1 hour ago, Gannan said:

No, he said eradicate Hamas. You have resigned yourself to thinking that using civilians as human shields is a legitimate and moral tactic. It's the second reason you're so wrong on this. The first reason is while you are throwing around the accusation of genocide by the Israelis, you are supporting a people and government who is actually built on the idea of genocide which bothers you not at all. 

He sees Israel as the oppressor and colonizer and believes Hamas is justified in doing what they do. 

1 hour ago, ToastJenkins said:

Was never their land

I mean, it’s been "their land” for thousands of years — literally since the Bronze Age. We have genetic records and it is pretty clear that they are the genetic descendants of the ancient people of that area.

If you want to make a realpolitik "might makes right” argument, that’s a different matter.

5 minutes ago, DrPhilly said:

He sees Israel as the oppressor and colonizer and believes Hamas is justified in doing what they do by any means necessary. 

FYP

6 minutes ago, DrPhilly said:

He sees Israel as the oppressor and colonizer and believes Hamas is justified in doing what they do. 

Seeing Israel as an oppressor could be defensible. Not seeing Hamas as an even worse oppressor is not.

1 hour ago, Gannan said:

No, he said eradicate Hamas. You have resigned yourself to thinking that using civilians as human shields is a legitimate and moral tactic. It's the second reason you're so wrong on this. The first reason is while you are throwing around the accusation of genocide by the Israelis, you are supporting a people and government who is actually built on the idea of genocide which bothers you not at all. 

I understand the dynamics at stake.  Regardless of motivations one side is building a settlement outside their border and then claiming it’s for defense.  Then they build another settlement outside their border and claim it’s for defense.  And then another.  And another.  And the U.S. has been the biggest cheerleader of this process since 1967.  In fact I’d argue it’s one of the handful of things Republicans and Democrats actually agree upon.