3 hours ago, Alpha_TATEr said:

morning everyone, happy monday. 

'tis a fine week to watch everyone in this this thread compare tadgers

(all of which, of course, will be found wanting - vis a vis my own)

1 hour ago, Imp81318 said:

Yup. There’s a huge difference between supporting Palestinians and supporting Hamas. Palestinians aren’t holding over 100 innocent people hostage, Hamas is. 

Yet, the protestors are unwilling to see the difference between Palestinians and Hamas. To them they are all same. 

2 hours ago, EagleFan85 said:

The creation of Israel had nothing to do with the formation of Hamas. Unless you count that Hamas claims it does. Israel was formed at least 50 years before Hamas. The Palestinians had worked out multiple solutions to this problem in the 90s. Hamas blew all of them up.

The only reason Hamas violence is connected in anyway at all to the formation of Israel is because they say it is and some of the world believes them.

Hamas will use any excuse they can find to continue their legacy of terrorism. They are terrorists that's what they do. Their mission and stated goal is unrealistic, unachievable, and quite honestly stupid. Israel is not going anywhere. Get over it and learn to get along with your neighbors.

Islamic extremism is a scourge and needs to be eradicated. Regular Muslims across the world should be rising up against it too. These groups have done nothing to help Muslims overall. They have infact isolated much of the Islamic world. Rather than progress Islamic goals terror groups have largely marginalized, oppressed, and often slaughtered their own people.

Ironically someone previously pointed out that The Palestinians can't stand up to Hamas because they will be shot. That's the point here. Hamas needs to go and the Palestinians need to be a part of that process.

The Palestinian need to denounce terrorism and extremism as a political tool. It's not going to work now any more than it worked in the past. If they do this Hamas will soon lose control of Gaza and this will be over a lot sooner.

 

You make it sound like everything was hunky dory before Hamas came along.  You know Sirhan Sirhan killed Bobby Kennedy because of U.S. support for Israel, right?

Just now, Dave Moss said:

You make it sound like everything was hunky dory before Hamas came along.  You know Sirhan Sirhan killed Bobby Kennedy because of U.S. support for Israel, right?

What's your solution? 

51 minutes ago, Mike030270 said:

https://edition.cnn.com/2023/11/13/middleeast/gaza-babies-incubators-al-shifa-hospital-israel-intl-hnk/index.html

 

Horrible, but crap happens in war. They voted Hamas in, and they are finding out what happens when their ruling party attacks a nation with brutality. Lots of civilians will suffer and die, especially when the same group who targeted women and children are now using them as human shields. Honestly, if that's the price for this crap with Hamas to finally end, then so be it—no more half-measures. Wipe them off the face of the earth. F the media and far-left propaganda painting Israel as doing something wrong. They are defending themselves against pure evil that wants them wiped off the face of the earth.

 

9 minutes ago, Dave Moss said:

You make it sound like everything was hunky dory before Hamas came along.  You know Sirhan Sirhan killed Bobby Kennedy because of U.S. support for Israel, right?

Correct.  Another terrorist.

It's true that if you eradicate Hamas another "terrorist organization", Fatah, with a history of terrorist attacks on Israel will come back into power, but I think that annihilating Hamas will send a strong enough message to Fatah that they give serious consideration to reforming their terrorist ways.  If they don't, Israel has the blue print for how to deal with them too.

5 minutes ago, Dave Moss said:

You make it sound like everything was hunky dory before Hamas came along.  You know Sirhan Sirhan killed Bobby Kennedy because of U.S. support for Israel, right?

 

Wow. You really are the master of the lazy narrative.

I simply didn't mention the pre Hamas era. Well I did actually. I pointed out that Hamas assassinated Palestinians who were actively working for peace, collaboration, and the formation of a Palestinian State.

A series of points you have IGNORED multiple times throughout this thread. The Palestinians were closer to having their own state in the mid to late 90s than they have EVER been. Even before Israel. Hamas stopped that from becoming a reality.

You can't seem to hold Hamas accountable for anything.

2 minutes ago, Diehardfan said:

Horrible, but crap happens in war. They voted Hamas in, and they are finding out what happens when their ruling party attacks a nation with brutality. Lots of civilians will suffer and die, and honestly, if that's the price for this crap with Hamas to finally end, then so be it—no more half-measures. Wipe them off the face of the earth. F the media and far-left propaganda painting Israel as doing something wrong. They are defending themselves against pure evil that wants them wiped off the face of the earth.

When any side commits war crimes, they are doing wrong. In war, pretty much every side is guilty of this to some extent. Israel included.

Israel is a Jewish state. This leaves non-Jews as second class citizens.

13 minutes ago, Dave Moss said:

You know Sirhan Sirhan killed Bobby Kennedy because of U.S. support for Israel, right?

Did he use the first or last bullet in his chamber?

 

Calling for Gaza to be leveled is no less barbaric than those calling for death to Israel. Each side just keeps recruiting the next generation of haters. 
 

 

28 minutes ago, Toastrel said:

When any side commits war crimes, they are doing wrong. In war, pretty much every side is guilty of this to some extent. Israel included.

Israel is a Jewish state. This leaves non-Jews as second class citizens.

Not when one group targets civilians and then hides behind them like shields. It's survival, and Israel isn't putting up with this crap anymore, and they certainly don't give a f what anyone thinks. They are right.

8 minutes ago, Diehardfan said:

Not when one group targets civilians and then hides behind them like shields. It's survival, and Israel isn't putting up with this crap anymore, and they certainly don't give a f what anyone thinks. They are right.

Sloppy thinking. If X is wrong, it is wrong regardless of who did it and why.

 

33 minutes ago, Tnt4philly said:

Calling for Gaza to be leveled is no less barbaric than those calling for death to Israel. Each side just keeps recruiting the next generation of haters. 
 

 

Yeah, but at the same time...when you see little kids in Gaza spitting on naked Israeli women who are dead in the back of trucks or throwing rocks at Israeli bulldozers and understand this has gone back thousands of years since Abraham, you know these groups will never live in peace. They can't live close to each other, and one has to go. Do I want Palestinian civilians hurt? Absolutely not. Can they still live there? Absolutely not, as well. Where do they go? I have no idea, but if they stay, there may be peace for a short time, but then the kids watching this will grow up and hate Israel for all this instead of Hamas, and it will start again in 15 years. I'm not trying to be cold, but this is never going to end.

1 minute ago, Diehardfan said:

Yeah, but at the same time...when you see little kids in Gaza spitting on naked Israeli women who are dead in the back of trucks or throwing rocks at Israeli bulldozers and understand this has gone back thousands of years since Abraham, you know these groups will never live in peace. They can't live close to each other, and one has to go. Do I want Palestinian civilians hurt? Absolutely not. Can they still live there? Absolutely not, as well. Where do they go? I have no idea, but if they stay, there may be peace for a short time, but then the kids watching this will grow up and hate Israel for all this instead of Hamas, and it will start again in 15 years. I'm not trying to be cold, but this is never going to end.

Golly, throwing rocks at bulldozers.

 

You're right. Kill them all.

1 minute ago, Toastrel said:

Sloppy thinking. If X is wrong, it is wrong regardless of who did it and why.

 

BS. They targeted civilians and are now hiding behind them. Sorry, but Israel isn't stopping this time. No free passes for Hamas. They are being targeted where they are.

1 minute ago, Toastrel said:

Golly, throwing rocks at bulldozers.

 

You're right. Kill them all.

Glad we agree that the gloves are off. If they choose to hide behind civilians or hospitals or whatever...they aren't targeting civilians but the bus isn't stopping this time.

2 minutes ago, Diehardfan said:

BS. They targeted civilians and are now hiding behind them. Sorry, but Israel isn't stopping this time. No free passes for Hamas. They are being targeted where they are.

You really are unable to see the disconnect of your position. Targeting civilians cannot be solved by targeting other civilians.

 

This will never result in less civilians targeted.

2 minutes ago, Toastrel said:

You really are unable to see the disconnect of your position. Targeting civilians cannot be solved by targeting other civilians.

They are not targeting civilians. They are targeting brutally evil people hiding behind them. This is the game Hamas plays. They do evil stuff and say you can't hit us. The rules have changed this time.

4 minutes ago, Toastrel said:

Sloppy thinking. If X is wrong, it is wrong regardless of who did it and why.

 

Way to simplified reasoning here. After 30 plus years of this ISH everyone should be sick of terrorists.

For some reason a lot of people want to make excuses for them. Heck, if I was Palestinian I would be so sick and tired of my so called government getting me bombed on the regular.

Again the sooner Palestinians rise against Hamas the sooner this will be over. If they don't they will continue to be bombed with them.

They are human shields. If they can't see that I don't know what to say. But Israel does have a right to say enough is enough.

 

 

5 minutes ago, Toastrel said:

You really are unable to see the disconnect of your position. Targeting civilians cannot be solved by targeting other civilians.

 

This will never result in less civilians targeted.

Also, I'm pretty sure we killed a lot of innocent civilians in Hiroshima and Nagasaki. That doesn't make it right. It's horrible, but sometimes bad things have to happen to end things.

I don't understand why the far left approaches this issue from the standpoint of "support Palestine".  Just say you don't want to fund Israel.  That's what the right does with Ukraine.  They support Russia but they usually don't explicitly say it.  They just say "don't fund Ukraine" in hopes that if we back off it'll help Russia achieve it's goals.  If the far left approached the Israel/Hamas issue in the same way, they'd likely help their cause and wouldn't get as much push back.

5 minutes ago, Toastrel said:

You really are unable to see the disconnect of your position. Targeting civilians cannot be solved by targeting other civilians.

 

This will never result in less civilians targeted.

Israel is not "targeting" civilians. They are targeting Hamas. Hamas hides among civilians. If the Palestinians don't want to get bombed with Hamas fighters they need to stand against Hamas and push them out into the open.

There are 2.5 million Palestinians in Gaza. If they want to remove Hamas they can.