2 hours ago, Imp81318 said:

What is an appropriate level of force/response from Israel in your eyes?  Hamas is hiding and strategically positioned among civilian infrastructure like hospitals and schools. So, Israel should not attack those places to ensure that Hamas strikes again in the near future?

Of the say 10,000 killed by Israel since this started, and I am using a low number, how many do you think were terrorists?

I don't think killing 9,900 civilians is an appropriate response, being generous, and saying that 100 of the 10,000 were real terrorists. I don't think that level of response is necessary.

If we went into Afghanistan like this after 9-11, they'd be talking about US war crimes. After 9-11, we killed 3,000 or so civilians in 3 months, and we invaded, taking out the government.

4 minutes ago, Toastrel said:

Of the say 10,000 killed by Israel since this started, and I am using a low number, how many do you think were terrorists?

I don't think killing 9,900 civilians is an appropriate response, being generous, and saying that 100 of the 10,000 were real terrorists. I don't think that level of response is necessary.

If we went into Afghanistan like this after 9-11, they'd be talking about US war crimes. After 9-11, we killed 3,000 or so civilians in 3 months, and we invaded, taking out the government.

Is 10,000 a low number?

I'd consider whatever is being reported by Hamas to be a ceiling.

Clearly in the thousands just by common sense, but still.

None of this interferes with your broader point, but 100 Hamas killed also seems low to me.

a 1/1000 ratio?

7 minutes ago, Arthur Jackson said:

Is 10,000 a low number?

I'd consider whatever is being reported by Hamas to be a ceiling.

Clearly in the thousands just by common sense, but still.

None of this interferes with your broader point, but 100 Hamas killed also seems low to me.

a 1/1000 ratio?

I'm making up numbers. There are 5 million plus Palestinians. That ratio gives you 5,000 Hamassholes. Seemed like workable numbers to me.

41 minutes ago, jsdarkstar said:

It matters because they believe All of the land of Israel is theirs, however unfounded those beliefs are. 

Who’s they? Every one of them or just some of them? Do they want all the land, or just the land that was taken from them? What was the British Rule of Palestine all about if not about Palestine? Not saying it was a State but it was home to many. 

Call them and the land taken from them what you wish, but the fact is, there were people living in that area for generations prior to 48.

I don’t expect those people to ever get their land back but what is the justification for continuing to take land and expanding the settlements? 
 

46 minutes ago, Toastrel said:

You agree with his view?

To be honest I haven't read everything he has posted so I'm not sure exactly what his view is in detail.  I do agree that Israel needs to take action against Hamas and I don't see any other reasonable alternative other than chasing them into Gaza where we know there will be significant Palestinian civilian casualties.  One thing I don't agree with is the notion that all Palestinians are responsible for the actions of Hamas.

What do you suggest that Israel do at this point?

 

No way they would do this, not a chance

 

3 hours ago, EagleFan85 said:

Wow. You really are the master of the lazy narrative.

Pot meet Kettle. 

3 minutes ago, Toastrel said:

I'm making up numbers. There are 5 million plus Palestinians. That ratio gives you 5,000 Hamassholes. Seemed like workable numbers to me.

Hamas has (had?) conservatively 20,000 members. They claim 100,000 but they always lie.

There are about 2 miilion people in Gaza. So about 1/100 Hamas-to-civilian if we're just talking about Gaza.

But even then that doesn't mean there's only 1 Hamas killed for every 100 civilian. I don't know what the number actually is... but we can certainly make realistic error bars.

Sorry, this math stuff I'm going to get nerdy on. 

58 minutes ago, EagleFan85 said:

I never said it was going to be easy dude. 

you have pretty said exactly that. time to put on your big pants was one phrase you used. yeah just go up to hamas and tell them to GTFO.  

its not as simple as you keep trying to say. hamas wasn't voted for freely. something else you seem to be pushing. there is nothing free about that damn place. 

those people are completely brainwashed and under lock & key. that said, the war has started and nothing can change that now.

again, i hope isreal ends this as quickly as possible. 

1 hour ago, EagleFan85 said:

When in history did the state of Palestine exist?

Exactly when was that again?

Today's State of Palestine was founded by the Yassar Arafat and the PLO, the recognition of which is certainly debatable. There were other powers in the region over the years that were called Palestine.

I think anyone with the opinion that Palestinians just need to "rise up” and take their country back from hamas need a little context. You’re comparatively asking the colonists during the American revolution to hand the colonial army and it’s leaders over to the British. I’m sure the British felt if the colonists would have just flushed out the American militia  and handed over Washington and his army there would have been way less casualties and everyone could just go back to normal. Only it’s even more complicated because this is religious conflict, where people tend to be even more resolute about than paying taxes.

25 minutes ago, DrPhilly said:

What do you suggest that Israel do at this point?

I'm very close to arriving at a solution that involves The Love Boat

2 minutes ago, Arthur Jackson said:

I'm very close to arriving at a solution that involves The Love Boat

The female body part?

24 minutes ago, DrPhilly said:

To be honest I haven't read everything he has posted so I'm not sure exactly what his view is in detail.  I do agree that Israel needs to take action against Hamas and I don't see any other reasonable alternative other than chasing them into Gaza where we know there will be significant Palestinian civilian casualties.  One thing I don't agree with is the notion that all Palestinians are responsible for the actions of Hamas.

What do you suggest that Israel do at this point?

What everyone else does.

Attack the enemy while doing your best NOT to kill civilians. The US killed 12,000 or so civilians in 2003, the year we invaded. The entire year, as the US took some care to bomb military targets. Israel is using a much heavier hand, and I thought Iraq was heavy handed.

Just now, MidMoFo said:

The female body part?

Yes.

The one with a black bartender inside it.

5 minutes ago, Arthur Jackson said:

Yes.

The one with a black bartender inside it.

Dude, no need to bring up my ex-wife. 🤦‍♂️ 

27 minutes ago, Alpha_TATEr said:

you have pretty said exactly that. time to put on your big pants was one phrase you used. yeah just go up to hamas and tell them to GTFO.  

its not as simple as you keep trying to say. hamas wasn't voted for freely. something else you seem to be pushing. there is nothing free about that damn place. 

those people are completely brainwashed and under lock & key. that said, the war has started and nothing can change that now.

again, i hope isreal ends this as quickly as possible. 

So in other words the civilians are brainwashed to believe what Hamas wants them to believe. Got it.

Basically they are terrorists by your logic. I simply have suggested they need to be a part of this process. Will it be hard? Yes. Will they need to put their big boy pants on and stand up to their oppressive leadership? Yes. But is it going to happen without them? Nope it's not.

Just now, Tnt4philly said:

Dude, no need to bring up my ex-wife. 🤦‍♂️ 

20 minutes ago, toolg said:

Today's State of Palestine was founded by the Yassar Arafat and the PLO, the recognition of which is certainly debatable. There were other powers in the region over the years that were called Palestine.

The PLO got close.

Hamas was founded and destroyed the PLO.

The state never happened. Palestine as a nation has never existed.

10 minutes ago, Toastrel said:

What everyone else does.

Attack the enemy while doing your best NOT to kill civilians. The US killed 12,000 or so civilians in 2003, the year we invaded. The entire year, as the US took some care to bomb military targets. Israel is using a much heavier hand, and I thought Iraq was heavy handed.

I don’t buy the idea that they are trying to kill civilians. 

1 hour ago, Toastrel said:

Of the say 10,000 killed by Israel since this started, and I am using a low number, how many do you think were terrorists?

I don't think killing 9,900 civilians is an appropriate response, being generous, and saying that 100 of the 10,000 were real terrorists. I don't think that level of response is necessary.

If we went into Afghanistan like this after 9-11, they'd be talking about US war crimes. After 9-11, we killed 3,000 or so civilians in 3 months, and we invaded, taking out the government.

Just make up a number and it would be as accurate. Any number you’re using would come from Hamas, the same people who had you believing that Israel bombed a hospital killing hundreds, until it was proven that they hadn’t bombed the hospital at all.

war is ugly, period. 

isreal can't avoid killing civilians and palestinians can't just rub a genie's lamp to make hamas go away, so somebody else has to do the dirty work. 

 

 

46 minutes ago, DrPhilly said:

To be honest I haven't read everything he has posted so I'm not sure exactly what his view is in detail.  I do agree that Israel needs to take action against Hamas and I don't see any other reasonable alternative other than chasing them into Gaza where we know there will be significant Palestinian civilian casualties.  One thing I don't agree with is the notion that all Palestinians are responsible for the actions of Hamas.

What do you suggest that Israel do at this point?

My view has been pretty consistent. I simply feel that the Palestinians who are not Hamas would be better served turning on Hamas at this time.  Especially the Palestinians overseas who are protesting in the streets. Most certainly the protesters who are not Palestinians but are supporting their cause. I can't support them blindly like some here are. They have to play a part in their own future for sure.

Point them out to IDF

Show IDF where tunnels are located

And demand the hostages from OCT 7 be released.

Doing these things would most certainly make there situation better over time. It may take some time I agree. But to not do this leaves them in a position where Hamas can continue to use them as shields.

 

4 minutes ago, Alpha_TATEr said:

war is ugly, period. 

isreal can't avoid killing civilians and palestinians can't just rub a genie's lamp to make hamas go away, so somebody else has to do the dirty work. 

 

 

It's not one or the other. It's all of the above. The Palestinians need to be a part of removing Hamas. It just is what it is. If it's up to others without Palestinians how do you tell the terrorists from the civilians? You don't.