I wish we could start putting a statute* of limitations on the traction everyone gets from their historical grievances.

It just causes perpetual problems. 

 

Having said that I'll never forgive the Normans. Filthy buggers.

 

*or "statue", i.e. "sculpture" of limitations

12 minutes ago, DrPhilly said:

I don’t buy the idea that they are trying to kill civilians. 

I didn't say that. I think they don't care how many they kill. To them, every Palestinian is a Hamas voting terror supporter, or potential terrorist.

 

Just now, EagleFan85 said:

It's not one or the other. It's all of the above. The Palestinians need to be a part of removing Hamas. It just is what it is. If it's up to others without Palestinians how do you tell the terrorists from the civilians? You don't.

 

1 minute ago, EagleFan85 said:

The PLO got close.

Hamas was founded and destroyed the PLO.

The state never happened. Palestine as a nation has never existed.

Your simpleton question and answer disregards the complex history and various people that call this area home. The Ancient Egyptians recognized a Palestinian power over 3000 years ago. The Philistines died out ages ago. The Romans and Byzantines called their provinces Palestine. But the current people who call themselves Palestinian today are Muslim Arabs. They can be traced to a series of Islamic Caliphates 500-1500 years ago. The Ottoman Turks then conquered Palestine, who themselves were defeated in WWI. The British then took control of Mandatory Palestine, which then led to the formation of Israel after WWII. The Muslim Arabs (Palestinians) who felt they should control the entire region, refused to recognize the Jewish government and a two-state solution. Which leads us into the ongoing conflict today. Hamas has taken over in Gaza, but West Bank remains under Palestinian Authority.

There was a deal during the Clinton years that gave the Arabs there most of what they wanted. They turned it down, like they turned down citizenship.

Of course, being non-Jews, perhaps being a citizen of a Jewish state is not that palatable.?

 

27 minutes ago, EagleFan85 said:

My view has been pretty consistent. I simply feel that the Palestinians who are not Hamas would be better served turning on Hamas at this time.  Especially the Palestinians overseas who are protesting in the streets. Most certainly the protesters who are not Palestinians but are supporting their cause. I can't support them blindly like some here are. They have to play a part in their own future for sure.

Point them out to IDF

Show IDF where tunnels are located

And demand the hostages from OCT 7 be released.

Doing these things would most certainly make there situation better over time. It may take some time I agree. But to not do this leaves them in a position where Hamas can continue to use them as shields.

 

Drug addicts would be better off not using drugs.

Alcoholics would be better off not drinking.

Abused spouses would be better off if they hadn’t gotten married.

Abused children would be better off not getting beaten.

You’re not living in reality…

32 minutes ago, Toastrel said:

I didn't say that. I think they don't care how many they kill. To them, every Palestinian is a Hamas voting terror supporter, or potential terrorist.

 

I don’t buy that assertion. 

1 minute ago, DrPhilly said:

I don’t buy that assertion. 

Then you love terrorists.

Now they won.

Happy?

6 minutes ago, Toastrel said:

Then you love terrorists.

Now they won.

Happy?

What terrorists are you talking about in this post?

39 minutes ago, Arthur Jackson said:

I wish we could start putting a statute* of limitations on the traction everyone gets from their historical grievances.

It just causes perpetual problems. 

 

Having said that I'll never forgive the Normans. Filthy buggers.

 

*or "statue", i.e. "sculpture" of limitations

Of course you say that as a Brit.  You have more blood on your hands than anyone here.  Let’s not forget how you got Vikas’ family members murdered in 1947.

1 hour ago, Alpha_TATEr said:

How did we eliminate Isis? We worked with locals. How did we eliminate Al Quieda? We worked with locals. It was pretty commonly understood that to remove a terror organization you needed local support. The same thing will be true in Gaza.

How many Palestinians are in the streets across the world right now protesting Israel? Are they under Hamas guns? Nope, they are not. How many western liberals are in the streets protesting Israel? Are they under Hamas guns? No they are not. Would it help the Palestinians in Gaza if they made the elimination of Hamas a major part of their protests? Yes it would. Would global support for the removal of Hamas give the people of Gaza something to begin to work with? Yes it would.

Why is literally no one demanding Hamas lay down their arms for the sake of the people of Gaza? They started this current situation with one of the dumbest terrorist attacks yet. They targeted civilians with no mercy whatsoever and filmed it for added terroristic effect.

Heck I listened to the President of the United States answer point blank when asked about a cease fire.

"Release the hostages and we'll talk."

Still waiting on that.

It seems like we are looking for any reason we can find to stop Israel from defending itself fom a declaration of war against it. October 7 was a declaration of war no matter how you look at it. That is the main problem with terrorists. They take acts of war lightly. They use war against civilians and use civilians as a part of battlefield strategy. War is not to be taken lightly and declaring war on an international neighbor is a huge decision with very real consequences.

International Palestinian support for the removal of Hamas would really help the Palestinians in Gaza right now. But that is not what we are seeing. Instead we are seeing flyers of missing Israelis ripped down and absolute chaos in the streets of western democracies. People are here in the US, benefiting from the values and society we have built. But deep down they don't support the values or the society we have built. So they are in the streets in many cases celebrating Oct 7 and crying out as loud as they can for another Jewish genocide.

Every time you hear the words "from the river to the sea." That means Jewish genocide. That is what they want. I support anyone's right to defend themselves against that.

In Israel it is legal for a Jew and a Palestinian to get married and have children and be a part of society. Is there some racism? I'm sure there is. It's everywhere and it's disgusting no matter where it shows it's face. In Gaza on the other hand a Palestinian and Jew might be beheaded for falling in love and would be totally ostracized from society if they managed to not be killed.

This is a very telling example of what is actually at stake here. The people of Gaza deserve better than what Hamas has to offer. But they do indeed have to actually want to make it better. When it involves war it requires a lot of sacrifice to make it better. Right now with an entire legion of IDF forces in Gaza the Palestinians have probably the best chance they will ever have to get rid of Hamas.

If that is what they want.

I posted an article the other day documenting that this is indeed beginning to happen. For all you posters saying it's impossible they will get shot if they stand up to Hamas. They currently are beginning to stand up to Hamas in Gaza. Palestinians are attacking Hamas police and cursing Hamas openly when rockets are fired towards Israel. So far Hamas is not shooting them.

You guys seem to forget that there is a major propaganda war going on here too. Hamas treats Gazans like ISH that is very true. But if they start shooting them outright and that gets out to the world they could very easily loose the propaganda war they are currently winning.

The worst part of this has got to be the fact that Oct 7 had nothing to do with Gaza. It was funded by Iran and timed to disrupt efforts between Saudi Arabia and Israel to build a better relationship.

So once again Hamas has literally stood in the way of something that would have been good for Muslims and Israelis alike. Cooperative relations with western nations are not acceptable to Islamic extremists. That was the message to Saudi Arabia and to Israel. Don't do it.

 

3 hours ago, EagleFan85 said:

When in history did the state of Palestine exist?

Exactly when was that again?

I keep getting mocked for bringing up the Ottoman Empire, but then folks keep posting crap like this.  I guess I can’t win.

25 minutes ago, Dave Moss said:

Of course you say that as a Brit.  You have more blood on your hands than anyone here.  Let’s not forget how you got Vikas’ family members murdered in 1947.

I’m surprised after that genocide there are any Indians left

8 minutes ago, EagleFan85 said:

How did we eliminate Isis? We worked with locals. How did we eliminate Al Quieda? We worked with locals.

Do you know what the number one rule about working with locals is? don’t effing kill them.

5 minutes ago, Tnt4philly said:

Do you know what the number one rule about working with locals is? don’t effing kill them.

Israel is not targeting civilians.

Civilians are in the crossfire because Hamas is hiding behind them.

There are infact A LOT of Palestinians and former Hamas currently working with the IDF. The son of the founder of Hamas currently works with the IDF.

He says Hamas is from the pit of hell and they must be removed from power.

 

39 minutes ago, Dave Moss said:

Of course you say that as a Brit.  You have more blood on your hands than anyone here.  Let’s not forget how you got Vikas’ family members murdered in 1947.

When I ask for a cherry Squishee, that's what I expect to get.

You give me grape... you suffer the consequences.

1 hour ago, Toastrel said:

I didn't say that. I think they don't care how many they kill. To them, every Palestinian is a Hamas voting terror supporter, or potential terrorist.

 

Yeah, I think it’s indifference rather than purposeful targeting.

2 minutes ago, EagleFan85 said:

Israel is not targeting civilians.

I never said that they were targeting civilians on purpose. Regardless, that doesn’t change the number one rule of working with civilians. Not only are the dead’s ones dead, their families now have a reason to not risk their lives to help you. 

Just now, Tnt4philly said:

I never said that they were targeting civilians on purpose. Regardless, that doesn’t change the number one rule of working with civilians. Not only are the dead’s ones dead, their families now have a reason to not risk their lives to help you. 

At best.

At worst, you now have an entire family that previously was helping you, or at least neutral, who now wants to kill you.

There's one thing we can all agree on here.

The entire Levant ought to be thankful for the thought experimentation and Sunday-morning-quarterbacking that we are doing for them from the comfort of our gaming chairs.

They may think they have it rough with quite literal existential threats, but we're here risking the reputations of our passive aggressive, sarcastic, semi-anonymous avatars on a daily basis in a desperate attempt not to get owned by our faceless electronic rivals.

You're welcome Holy Land! 

22 minutes ago, Tnt4philly said:

I never said that they were targeting civilians on purpose. Regardless, that doesn’t change the number one rule of working with civilians. Not only are the dead’s ones dead, their families now have a reason to not risk their lives to help you. 

I mean I totally get your point. War is hell. There is so many reasons those people are stuck in a war zone. The vast majority of those reasons are directly due to their leadership.

So it's like, what do you do other than hope they take the opportunity to rise against their leadership.

The question left to answer at that point is do they want to live in peace, build a better society for their families and future generations? Or do they want to continue to fight a perpetual but unwinnable war?

I remember the suicide bombers in the nineties. Everytime peace became a possibility some young Palestinian kid would hop on a bus and blow himself up. They were all kids too. Like 17 to 22 years old. Suicide bombers they called them.

When you dug a bit deeper you found the truth. The kids were basically told they would become a martyr and receive glory with Allah. While the families were paid quite a bit of money for the sacrifice of their family member. Hamas was in it's earliest stages and these suicide bombers were their weapon of choice.

It just gets old man. All this terrorism crap has done for them is lose them more and more. At some point you would think a change in strategie might serve one well.

 

3 hours ago, Toastrel said:

Of the say 10,000 killed by Israel since this started, and I am using a low number, how many do you think were terrorists?

I don't think killing 9,900 civilians is an appropriate response, being generous, and saying that 100 of the 10,000 were real terrorists. I don't think that level of response is necessary.

If we went into Afghanistan like this after 9-11, they'd be talking about US war crimes. After 9-11, we killed 3,000 or so civilians in 3 months, and we invaded, taking out the government.

In Afghanistan we also had support and cooperation from the civilians. And I don’t recall the same stories of the terrorists hiding behind civilians and having military centers situated in civilian buildings like hospitals and schools. And you still didn’t answer my question:  how should Israel respond to prevent repeat attacks on its civilians?

7 hours ago, Mike030270 said:

https://edition.cnn.com/2023/11/13/middleeast/gaza-babies-incubators-al-shifa-hospital-israel-intl-hnk/index.html

 

I bet there is a whole bunch of fuel for generators down in those tunnels underneath the hospital though.

Hamas has light and command infestructure down there. You know they got a lot of generators running.

It would be a lot easier to get it in there too. Man Hamas could save so many lives if they just put their priorities in line correctly.

14 minutes ago, Imp81318 said:

In Afghanistan we also had support and cooperation from the civilians. And I don’t recall the same stories of the terrorists hiding behind civilians and having military centers situated in civilian buildings like hospitals and schools.

There were plenty of stories from OEF and OIF where the enemy hid among civilians, used schools, hospitals, and Mosques  to launch attacks from. Our forces went out of their way to not bomb them.
 

Who do you think the locals will work with, someone who bombs their schools and hospitals, or someone who helps build and protect them? 

13 minutes ago, EagleFan85 said:

I bet there is a whole bunch of fuel for generators down in those tunnels underneath the hospital though.

Hamas has light and command infestructure down there. You know they got a lot of generators running.

It would be a lot easier to get it in there too. Man Hamas could save so many lives if they just put their priorities in line correctly.

Yeah, Hamas is horrible and they could save tons of lives if they had any decency but we know they do not. The number two rule in working with the locals is don’t lower yourselves to that of the enemy.