AHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!

Just now, M.C. said:

AHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

3 minutes ago, Tnt4philly said:

Yeah, Hamas is horrible and they could save tons of lives if they had any decency but we know they do not. The number two rule in working with the locals is don’t lower yourselves to that of the enemy. 

There are currently many "locals" working with the IDF. Many have been working with them for a long time. I would be willing to bet their bombings are not as indiscriminate as Hamas propaganda sources are making them out to be.

So far we have not seen Israel bomb a hospital. We have seen some other group of inexperienced jehadi militants almost bomb a hospital. They were not Hamas and they certainly were not Israel.

I hope we don't wake up to news of an Israeli airstrike on a hospital. That would be devastating and I agree that it would absolutely hurt their overall efforts. That could most likely be considered a war crime when this is all over.

Let's just hope they don't go there.

For now I still have a lot of hope in the reports I have seen of Gazans literally attacking Hamas police. That is a pretty big deal.

2 hours ago, MidMoFo said:

Drug addicts would be better off not using drugs.

Alcoholics would be better off not drinking.

Abused spouses would be better off if they hadn’t gotten married.

Abused children would be better off not getting beaten.

You’re not living in reality…

Of course he is, and here's how we know. If you believe in democracy and freedom you are better off not supporting a guy who wanted to overturn a democratic election. But here we are.

I think we can all agree that Palestinians would obviously be better off by rising up against Hamas who are total scum. But history has taught us that its not exactly easy for such uprisings to happen en mass, particularly when Hamas' controls all the weapons, still has support amongst a chunk of the population and the potential consequences for those rising up and failing. Look at Afghanistan - Taliban certainly has support from parts of that country and there are a heck a lot of Afghani's who hate them as well but the good guys haven't been able to keep them from power and have had to flee if they could. Further back, populations of many colonised nations experienced shocking second-class treatment for decades and decades before they eventually rose up.

And while I think Israel absolutely has a right to defend itself, they haven't exactly conducted themselves in a way that would earn trust form the Palestinians over the years. Some of it understandable when you are consistently under threat and have non-stop rockets being launched at you but they go overboard with the responses if the aim is long-term peace and the continued expansion of settlements ensures that there will always be an angry portion of the population which Hamas can recruit from. So yeah, its a sad situation - and one which terrorists like Hamas can easily exploit.

 

3 hours ago, MidMoFo said:

I think anyone with the opinion that Palestinians just need to "rise up” and take their country back from hamas need a little context. You’re comparatively asking the colonists during the American revolution to hand the colonial army and it’s leaders over to the British. I’m sure the British felt if the colonists would have just flushed out the American militia  and handed over Washington and his army there would have been way less casualties and everyone could just go back to normal. Only it’s even more complicated because this is religious conflict, where people tend to be even more resolute about than paying taxes.

Dude, there were about equal numbers of loyalists as there were rebels then. The population was roughly broken into thirds: one wanted to secede, one wanted to stay, and one didn’t care either way. 

48 minutes ago, EagleFan85 said:

I bet there is a whole bunch of fuel for generators down in those tunnels underneath the hospital though.

Hamas has light and command infestructure down there. You know they got a lot of generators running.

It would be a lot easier to get it in there too. Man Hamas could save so many lives if they just put their priorities in line correctly.

17 minutes ago, Dave Moss said:

 

 

15 minutes ago, Bill said:

Dude, there were about equal numbers of loyalists as there were rebels then. The population was roughly broken into thirds: one wanted to secede, one wanted to stay, and one didn’t care either way. 

Eh, maybe before the fighting started. Which direction do you think it went by the end of the war?

https://www.yahoo.com/news/israeli-minister-admits-military-carrying-233151647.html

An Israeli cabinet official has publicly admitted to the government’s ethnic cleansing of Palestinians, saying on television over the weekend that the country is "rolling out the Gaza Nakba.”

On Saturday, security cabinet member and Agriculture Minister Avi Dichter sat for a television interview with an Israeli news network. Dichter is part of the right-wing nationalist Likud party, which Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu chairs.

"We are now rolling out the Gaza Nakba,” Dichter said when asked if the recent images of northern Gaza residents evacuating south are comparable to images of the 1948 Nakba.

"From an operational point of view, there is no way to wage a war ― as the IDF seeks to do in Gaza ― with masses between the tanks and the soldiers,” he continued, according to a translation of the interview by Haaretz.

 

The Nakba, which in Arabic means "catastrophe,” refers to the mass displacement and ethnic cleansing of Palestinians during the 1948 Arab-Israeli war. Palestine was considered a multi-ethnic society until the tension between Arab and Jewish people rose as a result of both Jews migrating to flee persecution in Europe, as well as the Zionist movement attempting to establish a Jewish ethnostate in Palestine.

24 minutes ago, Mike030270 said:

I know, I know. It's too much to ask them to take care of their own people.

But the facts remain. There is a lot of fuel in those tunnels.

31 minutes ago, Bill said:

Dude, there were about equal numbers of loyalists as there were rebels then. The population was roughly broken into thirds: one wanted to secede, one wanted to stay, and one didn’t care either way. 

This guy puts it as up to 20% loyalist … not a bad read on the subject.

https://www.history.com/news/loyalists-revolutionary-war#

6 hours ago, TEW said:

No one said anything about a "state.” There is a territory and a people.

No just people

3 hours ago, Dave Moss said:

I keep getting mocked for bringing up the Ottoman Empire, but then folks keep posting crap like this.  I guess I can’t win.

Your next win will be your first

 

buy hey keep sticking to the same stupidity

2 hours ago, Tnt4philly said:

Do you know what the number one rule about working with locals is? don’t effing kill them.

Did we somehow not kill afghans or iraqis now?

6 minutes ago, ToastJenkins said:

No just people

Wrong. The territory of Gaza and Palestine is on basically every map in the world.

6 minutes ago, ToastJenkins said:

Did we somehow not kill afghans or iraqis now?

The US went to EXTREME measures to avoid civilian casualties. To the point of putting our own men in unnecessary danger.

45 minutes ago, TEW said:

The US went to EXTREME measures to avoid civilian casualties. To the point of putting our own men in unnecessary danger.

Doesnt answer the question

you know damn well We still had collateral

damage casualties

 

2 hours ago, MidMoFo said:

This guy puts it as up to 20% loyalist … not a bad read on the subject.

https://www.history.com/news/loyalists-revolutionary-war#

There’s been a push over the last thirty years to re-examine the ratios, but IMO with the amount that the patriots could be ****, it’s hard to get a definitive number going. Even the most liberal estimates put patriot support at just a smidge over majority well late into the war.   

1 hour ago, ToastJenkins said:

Doesnt answer the question

you know damn well We still had collateral

damage casualties

 

Of course. There is no getting around it in war.

But there is a big Fing difference between doing everything you can to prevent civilian casualties (as the US did in GWOT) and what Israel is doing.

They are not the same. Maybe you think Israel is justified in their measures, but you cannot compare their two methodologies.

28 minutes ago, Bill said:

There’s been a push over the last thirty years to re-examine the ratios, but IMO with the amount that the patriots could be ****, it’s hard to get a definitive number going. Even the most liberal estimates put patriot support at just a smidge over majority well late into the war.   

First off, it’s a poor comparison because the revolutionary war didn’t have a 4000 year history of religious hatred between the two. It makes things just a little more complicated for Palestinians thinking about teaming up with Israelis, being from a religion that traditionally doesn’t really like them so much.

Second, I guess you’ll just have to trust me that the loyalist uprising of the revolutionary war didn’t gain enough momentum for the Brits to win the war. Most "loyalists” didn’t like British rule either, they just didn’t want the war. They weren’t loyalists to the point of aiding the British or leaving their homes like is being expected from Palestinians.

14 hours ago, Imp81318 said:

In Afghanistan we also had support and cooperation from the civilians. And I don’t recall the same stories of the terrorists hiding behind civilians and having military centers situated in civilian buildings like hospitals and schools. And you still didn’t answer my question:  how should Israel respond to prevent repeat attacks on its civilians?

Yes, there were. The same as in Iraq. They hide among the people.

By going out and killing them F-ers, AND (this is the important part) doing their best NOT to kill civilians who just happen to be there.

People thought we were too heavy handed in Iraq. I believe Israel keen on making as many flee Israel as possible.

1 hour ago, Toastrel said:

Yes, there were. The same as in Iraq. The hide among the people.

By going out and killing them F-ers, AND (this is the important part) doing their best NOT to kill civilians who just happen to be there.

People thought we were too heavy handed in Iraq. I believe Israel keen on making as many flee Israel as possible.

1) Did you mean Gaza?

2) Assuming #1 is true, is that necessarily a bad thing?  The "non-Hamas" civilians seemed keen on staying put, maybe just maybe a "GTFO,s*** is getting real" message may end up saving lives in the long run?

 

I dunno,I haven't had caffeine yet. 

27 minutes ago, paco said:

1) Did you mean Gaza?

2) Assuming #1 is true, is that necessarily a bad thing?  The "non-Hamas" civilians seemed keen on staying put, maybe just maybe a "GTFO,s*** is getting real" message may end up saving lives in the long run?

 

I dunno,I haven't had caffeine yet. 

That's what I'm saying. If I lived in Gaza I would have been out my door and heading south by about 7 am on Oct 7th. The first salvo of rockets were fired towards Israel at around 6:30 am. Takes about a half hour to get up get dressed and get your family moving.

At 6:45 am in Gaza the reality is very clear. Does it suck? Absolutely. Is there any question about what's coming next? Not even slightly. Time to go.

But hey what do I know. Maybe staying and parading the dead Israelis through the streets with Hamas was the right decision. Who knows.

10 hours ago, TEW said:

Of course. There is no getting around it in war.

But there is a big Fing difference between doing everything you can to prevent civilian casualties (as the US did in GWOT) and what Israel is doing.

They are not the same. Maybe you think Israel is justified in their measures, but you cannot compare their two methodologies.

Sure i can. Israel is basically broadcasting whats coming and warning them

9 hours ago, MidMoFo said:

First off, it’s a poor comparison because the revolutionary war didn’t have a 4000 year history of religious hatred between the two. It makes things just a little more complicated for Palestinians thinking about teaming up with Israelis, being from a religion that traditionally doesn’t really like them so much.

Second, I guess you’ll just have to trust me that the loyalist uprising of the revolutionary war didn’t gain enough momentum for the Brits to win the war. Most "loyalists” didn’t like British rule either, they just didn’t want the war. They weren’t loyalists to the point of aiding the British or leaving their homes like is being expected from Palestinians.

JFC I wasn’t comparing the two. I was pointing out numbers from the OP I quoted.