1 hour ago, TEW said:

It is definitely not common in war, at least by modern western standards, to purposely cut off water to civilian populations and carpet bomb residential areas.

The water thing has sort of struck me as a piece of extreme propaganda for a while now. Here is why.

Yes Israel cut the water that is 100 percent correct. But prior to October 7th some estimates suggest that upwards of 70% of the population of Gaza had no access to running water. The water was all going to Hamas and this was by design.

Hamas released a propaganda video right after October 7. In it they were using excavators to dig up the water pipes in Gazan neighborhoods. From there they showed the process of converting the pipes into rocket casings. This was followed by Hamas soldiers firing the rockets towards Israel. It was very slick and well produced with Islamic Hip Hop and special effects. Basically it was depicting Hamas as these amazing Jihadi heros being blessed with Allahs inginuity.

The water Israel cut off was not going to Civilians and that is provable based on the numbers alone. Only the wealthiest 30% of the population had access to water. Under any normal circumstances I would agree that cutting water would be a morally questionable decision. 

However, the figures I just mentioned come from UN sources not Israeli sources. So in this very isolated instance I have no issue with the cutting off of water. 100% of those wealthy 30% with access to water are directly working for Hamas in some capacity. That is how Hamas rules Gaza.

As for the carpet bombing. Some of the steps Israel took before bombing in Gaza involved dropping flyers in neighborhoods and areas where Hamas was active. They used mass text messages and announced through the media as well as social media that areas were being targeted. Did all of these things work in every single situation? I'm sure they didn't. I'm also positive that some Palestinians did not take these notices to heart. But steps were taken. We can debate forever over the idea that more could have, or should, have been done. But steps were taken.

Now that IDF forces on the ground have moved in the bombings will slow down. The airstrikes will most likely be very precise resulting from on the ground Intel. Hospitals, schools, and so on are still standing. IDF is resupplying medical supplies and bringing doctors into Gaza as well.

I have a feeling we are going to start getting a lot more info coming out of Gaza from less biased sources than "Hamas health officials" too.

It would be interesting to know how many of those water pipes rockets failed to reach Israel and fell into Gaza too. That is information we will never know but I would bet there is a pretty good failure rate on those things.

24 minutes ago, Dave Moss said:

 

Go get her Dave.

30 minutes ago, Dave Moss said:

Just admit it, that’s why you wake up in the morning.   To read whatever dumb ideas popped into my head.

Close. It’s not why I wake up in the morning but it is why I drink myself to sleep at night.

5 hours ago, TEW said:

With all due respect to your father, I don’t think some nagging women are going to stop Islamic insurgents. More likely the women would just get a bullet in the head.

I’m pretty sure that line was hyperbole regarding how a civilian populace would act in general given such a situation. 
 

With all due respect to you, I’m also pretty sure on that matter I’d trust the opinion of a Marine officer whose job was civil affairs and psych ops while deployed in a war against the dual threat of a conventional fighting force and an insurgency against a guy who does VC in Maryland. 

1 hour ago, Dave Moss said:

 

Good thing the dems are so good at not letting the fringe morons have too much voice…

7 minutes ago, ToastJenkins said:

Good thing the dems are so good at not letting the fringe morons have too much voice…

Jr Congressman vs Presidential front runner. 

2 hours ago, Bill said:

I’m pretty sure that line was hyperbole regarding how a civilian populace would act in general given such a situation. 
 

With all due respect to you, I’m also pretty sure on that matter I’d trust the opinion of a Marine officer whose job was civil affairs and psych ops while deployed in a war against the dual threat of a conventional fighting force and an insurgency against a guy who does VC in Maryland. 

Lt. Colonel John Nagl,  whom I have had the pleasure of speaking to on multiple occasions regarding the subject, literally wrote the book on counter insurgency for the US military.

He would not agree with your father. You can read the US Army and Marines counter insurgency manual that he helped to author (didn’t you serve? Did you read it?) here.

Or you can hear what he has to say in his own words. Begin at 32:46. You’ll notice the emphasis he places on making the population feel "safe and protected” at 34:05.

Lobbing explosives at the civilian population’s houses, in an attempt to force the local populace into a sort of vigilante anti-insurgent action, would seem to be self defeating:

I highly recommend watching this portion of the interview to anyone interested in the subject. If you apply his view to Israel/Palestine, you’ll understand why Israel is in a negative feedback loop.

I encourage everybody to read or listen to the autobiography "Son of Hamas".  

 

Listen to Son of Hamas by Mosab Hassan Yousef, Ron Brackin - contributor on Audible. https://www.audible.com/pd/B006P1NBV8?source_code=ASSORAP0511160007

2 hours ago, TEW said:

Lt. Colonel John Nagl,  whom I have had the pleasure of speaking to on multiple occasions regarding the subject, literally wrote the book on counter insurgency for the US military.

He would not agree with your father. You can read the US Army and Marines counter insurgency manual that he helped to author (didn’t you serve? Did you read it?) here.

Or you can hear what he has to say in his own words. Begin at 32:46. You’ll notice the emphasis he places on making the population feel "safe and protected” at 34:05.

Lobbing explosives at the civilian population’s houses, in an attempt to force the local populace into a sort of vigilante anti-insurgent action, would seem to be self defeating:

I highly recommend watching this portion of the interview to anyone interested in the subject. If you apply his view to Israel/Palestine, you’ll understand why Israel is in a negative feedback loop.

Yeah, FM 3-24 / MCWP 3-33.5.

Also I’ve had Learning To Eat Soup With A Knife on my bookshelf for the last 20 years (presumably since before you knew who he was), and the book was suggested to me by my grandfather. But anyway. 
 

HR McMaster created the concept of Clear-Hold-Build up in the north of Iraq in 04 and it was perfected in Al Ansar in 05-06 by I MEF and 1ABCT (MacFarland).  The whole point of that concept is to actually go forward, clear insurgents out of an area with direct conflict, stay there, and then start working with the locals. Before the locals didn’t want to work with us not because we would shoot everything up, but that we would shoot everything up and the immediately leave.

So yeah, he didn’t "write the book” on counterinsurgency. He was basically the Mr. Bean meme copying McMaster’s and MacFarland’s work. And that manual wasn’t like some godsend after years of having nothing. They took a lot of stuff from the manual that already existed (06 version) and reshuffled it into a more concise order. 
 

The philosophy behind Clear-Hold-Build isn’t exactly all that new new either. The Marines wanted a similar philosophy in Vietnam with "Ink Blot” but the Army convinced the politicians to go with "Search and Destroy”. The issue isn’t with civilians dying collateral deaths. (In an insurgency, both sides actually end up killing civilians.) The issue was with occupiers not actually doing any occupying.

 

 

17 minutes ago, Bill said:

Yeah, FM 3-24 / MCWP 3-33.5.

Also I’ve had Learning To Eat Soup With A Knife on my bookshelf for the last 20 years (presumably since before you knew who he was), and the book was suggested to me by my grandfather. But anyway. 
 

HR McMaster created the concept of Clear-Hold-Build up in the north of Iraq in 04 and it was perfected in Al Ansar in 05-06 by I MEF and 1ABCT (MacFarland).  The whole point of that concept is to actually go forward, clear insurgents out of an area with direct conflict, stay there, and then start working with the locals. Before the locals didn’t want to work with us not because we would shoot everything up, but that we would shoot everything up and the immediately leave.

So yeah, he didn’t "write the book” on counterinsurgency. He was basically the Mr. Bean meme copying McMaster’s and MacFarland’s work. And that manual wasn’t like some godsend after years of having nothing. They took a lot of stuff from the manual that already existed (06 version) and reshuffled it into a more concise order. 
 

The philosophy behind Clear-Hold-Build isn’t exactly all that new new either. The Marines wanted a similar philosophy in Vietnam with "Ink Blot” but the Army convinced the politicians to go with "Search and Destroy”. The issue isn’t with civilians dying collateral deaths. (In an insurgency, both sides actually end up killing civilians.) The issue was with occupiers not actually doing any occupying.

 

 

Mr Bean? Yeah, OK dude.  

In any case, the point stands. You can’t target the civilian population and expect them to buy into whatever you’re selling.

I honestly cannot imagine a more self defeating ROE than to purposely target civilians and their homes in the hopes that they’ll suddenly start killing insurgents. More likely they join them.

10 minutes ago, TEW said:

Mr Bean? Yeah, OK dude.  

In any case, the point stands. You can’t target the civilian population and expect them to buy into whatever you’re selling.

I honestly cannot imagine a more self defeating ROE than to purposely target civilians and their homes in the hopes that they’ll suddenly start killing insurgents. More likely they join them.

No, the point doesn’t stand. You act as if I’m arguing for Malayan Emergency British level actions in COIN operations versus arguing for acceptable levels of collateral damage. There’s a big difference between the two which you’re not able to see the nuance in.  
 

There is a huge difference between deliberately targeting civilians just to target civilians, which is a war crime and OBVIOUSLY not at all what I was arguing, versus targeting a valid military target at the expense of collateral damage. 
 

What you’re seeing in Gaza right now is Israel more or less acting on the Shape-Clear-Hold-Build concept. They shaped the operation through strikes and intel for awhile, and are clearing the north end of the strip. In areas that they have cleared, they are holding them and actively starting that build process. Once Israel got control of the main hospital they started giving it resources to continue treatment. 

35 minutes ago, Bill said:

No, the point doesn’t stand. You act as if I’m arguing for Malayan Emergency British level actions in COIN operations versus arguing for acceptable levels of collateral damage. There’s a big difference between the two which you’re not able to see the nuance in.  
 

There is a huge difference between deliberately targeting civilians just to target civilians, which is a war crime and OBVIOUSLY not at all what I was arguing, versus targeting a valid military target at the expense of collateral damage. 
 

What you’re seeing in Gaza right now is Israel more or less acting on the Shape-Clear-Hold-Build concept. They shaped the operation through strikes and intel for awhile, and are clearing the north end of the strip. In areas that they have cleared, they are holding them and actively starting that build process. Once Israel got control of the main hospital they started giving it resources to continue treatment. 

this is what you said:

Quote

 

Iremember when a news story came up about how US troops were having issues dealing with mortar attacks originating from civilian neighborhoods and how the US was limited in returning the salvo because of the threat of collateral damage. He said that the US should do counter battery fire anyway. I was surprised given his political leanings and his being against OIF, so I asked why. His response? After several incidents of counter battery fire, any insurgent setting up so much as a mortar tube in any neighborhood would immediately be dealt with by the locals, saying that, "Every woman would be taking their shoes off to beat the ish out of anyone trying to fire at US forces.”

If you are shelling civilian neighborhoods, you are going to kill a lot of civilians and destroy a lot of people’s homes. This is counter productive. It makes the civilian population hate you.

Obviously there will be collateral damage in war. No one denies that. It’s tragic, but a part of war.

But having rules of engagement that direct you to use mortars, artillery, CAS, etc. against insurgent mortar teams in civilian neighborhoods is counterproductive. If you actually want to win, you need a multi-generational effort to win hearts and minds. Killing people’s sons, daughters, fathers, mothers, brothers, sisters, and neighbors doesn’t do that. Destroying people’s homes and lives doesn’t do that.

This is precisely why counter insurgency is so difficult. Surely you understand this?

Hmmmmmmm

20 hours ago, Bill said:

Yeah I got the info from the noted right wing rag The New York Times. 
 

https://www.nytimes.com/2003/06/01/world/after-the-war-baghdad-iraqi-civilians-allowed-to-keep-assault-rifles.html

 

 

I am not doubting there were lots of them. Legal to posses does not mean, as you pretend, that every Iraqi house had one. I can't believe I need to explain this.

Why Is the Cruel Sexual Violence of the October 7 Hamas Attack Being Ignored?

"I knew right away that sexual violence was part of the events of October 7, but obviously, I could not have known the extent of the cruelty that Hamas engaged in,” says Prof. Ruth Halperin-Kaddari, who served for 12 years on the UN Committee on Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination Against Women.

Halperin-Kaddari now feels "completely betrayed” by the international women’s rights organizations with whom she has worked for years, for their failure to condemn – or even recognize – the rape, kidnapping and other atrocities committed by Hamas terrorists against Israeli citizens on October 7.

 

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/podcasts/2023-11-14/ty-article-podcast/why-is-the-cruel-sexual-violence-of-the-october-7-hamas-attack-being-ignored/0000018b-cdbe-d423-affb-ffbfe0d20000

Those colonizer ****es were asking for it, I guess.

6 hours ago, DaEagles4Life said:

Hmmmmmmm

Thats a shame

6 hours ago, DaEagles4Life said:

Hmmmmmmm

Many of them were arrested as the protest turned violent. Now on MSNBC this a.m. Joe Scarborough was saying these folks are re-evaluating the Osama Bin Laden letter and taking his side. Sick and twisted logic. There is no moral equivalency between Israel and Hamas or the USA and Al Qaida. 

6 hours ago, DaEagles4Life said:

Hmmmmmmm

9.5 on the protestor toss. 

More leftist sheetlib infighting, please:

 

These Anti American, Pro Islamic Terrorist supporters make me sick.

Osama bin Laden’s ‘Letter to America’ Goes Viral 21 Years Later — on TikTok

As a famous @dril tweet noted of the terrorist group ISIS, "You do not, under any circumstances, ‘gotta hand it to them.'” Yet amid the continuing horrors of the war between Israel and Hamas militants, as people struggle to make sense of the violence and escalating rhetoric, more than a few people are willing to give al-Qaeda founder Osama bin Laden credit for his 2002 polemic against the United States, published as an explanation of the ideology that led him to orchestrate the attacks of 9/11.

"I need everyone to stop what they’re doing right now and go read — it’s literally two pages — go read ‘A Letter to America,'” said TikTok user Lynette Adkins in a video posted to the platform on Tuesday, referring to the title often given to the text by bin Laden. "Come back here and let me know what you think. Because I feel like I’m going through like an existential crisis right now, and a lot of people are. So I just need someone else to be feeling this too.”

 

27 minutes ago, jsdarkstar said:

These Anti American, Pro Islamic Terrorist supporters make me sick.

Osama bin Laden’s ‘Letter to America’ Goes Viral 21 Years Later — on TikTok

As a famous @dril tweet noted of the terrorist group ISIS, "You do not, under any circumstances, ‘gotta hand it to them.'” Yet amid the continuing horrors of the war between Israel and Hamas militants, as people struggle to make sense of the violence and escalating rhetoric, more than a few people are willing to give al-Qaeda founder Osama bin Laden credit for his 2002 polemic against the United States, published as an explanation of the ideology that led him to orchestrate the attacks of 9/11.

"I need everyone to stop what they’re doing right now and go read — it’s literally two pages — go read ‘A Letter to America,'” said TikTok user Lynette Adkins in a video posted to the platform on Tuesday, referring to the title often given to the text by bin Laden. "Come back here and let me know what you think. Because I feel like I’m going through like an existential crisis right now, and a lot of people are. So I just need someone else to be feeling this too.”

It's getting pretty sick out there but this is just sad.

Can't say I didn't see it coming though. It's like a natural progression of terrorism support. Once you start blindly supporting a group that wants to execute basically everyone that's not Muslim the jump to Osama love is probably not that difficult.

 

 

9 minutes ago, Mike030270 said:

 

I saw this last night and wanted to throw up.  It's impossible to underestimate people.