Let me defend the defense for a minute

[jmac+djaxallday]

First off, we need to accept that this is arguably both the oldest and the slowest defense in the league.  That was probably true even before Avonte Maddox, a player whose importance has been widely overlooked, was lost back in week two.  With Bradley Roby and Kevin Byard now in the fold, the Eagles start five defensive players over the age of 30, including four in the secondary.  Save for Hasson Reddick and maybe a couple DTs, the Eagles lack speed at every position on the field - and on all three levels of the defense.  That puts a cap on how good your defense can be and limits the number of looks you can throw at opposing qbs.  Given everything that's been lost, (CGJ, Hargrave, Edwards, White, and now Maddox, Dean, & Evans) this team is built to win on offense and needs its offense performing at close to an elite level to seriously contend for a championship

However, I don't think things are not nearly as dire defensively as they've looked at times in the last couple weeks.  In 2023, your defense is often only as good as the opposing offense makes you look; and this team, in stark contrast to last season, has faced a gauntlet consisting of five of the best six or seven offenses in the league (plus Dallas again).  Throw in a Vikings offense that was top ten until Cousins' injury and a Rams offense that's been pretty good in its own right, and they've played 65-70% of their games against top competition and actually held up pretty well until recently.  Statistically, 3rd down and redzone defense (where they rank 32nd and 30th, respectively) have been a big problem, and while I'm not trying to downplay it, history would suggest that they're not as fatal as you might think.  Check where participants from the last five Super Bowls have ranked in 3rd down/redzone defense, and you'll see that it is not a death sentence:

2022 Chiefs - 13th/31st; Eagles - 14th/12th

2021 Rams - 21st/8th; Bengals - 22nd/19th

2020 Bucs - 14th/20th; Chiefs - 17th/32nd

2019 Chiefs - 11th/9th; Niners - 3rd/23rd

2018 Patriots - 16th/16th; Rams - 12th/14th

Redzone defense, as we can clearly see, can be fluky and doesn't necessarily reflect your true worth as a defense.  3rd down defense is more predictive of overall defensive success, but still far from prophecy.  Compare this year's Eagles team, which has surrendered roughly 5.4 yards per play, with the last five teams to finish last in 3rd down defense to see how they are a clear outlier:

2022 Bears - 6.1 yards/play allowed

2021 Chargers - 5.6

2020 Titans - 5.9

2019 Redskins - 5.7

2018 Bengals - 6.1

Those teams gave up about 5.9 yards per play on average, which would indicate that the Eagles 3rd down defense is due to improve to something more aligned with their other defensive numbers (which are about average).  That's hardly a guarantee given the elephant in the room that is young DC Sean Desai, but prior to the Bills game, I thought he was acquainting himself quite nicely.  It's not his fault that his old, overworked defense has been forced to endure three of the best offenses in the league (one on a short week and the other two coming off extended rests) in consecutive weeks.  The results of the last two games, in particular, should not come as a surprise given the body blows they absorbed in the two prior slugfests (74 plays in KC, 92 against Buffalo).

I'm not telling you everything is sunshine and roses.  Seattle's receivers are good enough to expose their deficiencies in the secondary.  Even if you do survive that one, you have to fly home for a Christmas day bout with a plucky Giants team and then chase Kyler around on short rest the following week.  These may not be good teams they're playing, but they're certainly good enough to beat the Eagles given the way they've been playing. 

Worse yet, they no longer control their own destiny for the #1 seed and therefore might not be able to recharge Wild Card weekend like they did last season.  And because they play a divisional opponent in the Giants to close the season, they may not be able to rest their starters that week and hold onto the division (IIRC, they would have to win the next three and Dallas would have to lose two of its next three to clinch the division by then).  The prospect of a weary Eagles team having to win two playoff games and then fly to Santa Clara to take on a fully charged Niners team does not sound promising.

I just don't think, if and when this team loses this postseason, that it will be because of the defense.  It might be poor play calling on offense that does them in, or Hurts not being fully healthy, or untimely miscues like we saw on Sunday.  It may also just be that they run into like a buzzsaw like the Niners and can't keep up.  But I still really like our top 6-7 D-lineman and have just enough faith in the vets on the second and third levels to not be the reason we lose.  Slay might not be the player he was, but he still has enough in the tank to hold down his side of the field.  Bradberry has been an up and down player his whole career, but I still think he'll show up when it matters.  I like what Byard and Cunningham have given us, and I'm still holding out hope that Maddox can return at some point.  It's been rough lately but it's a long season and every defense will have rough stretches.

[NOTW]

No, I won't let you. 

[NCTANK]

the defense is indefensible!

[Kz!]

I appreciate the argument and the effort you put into that post, but I think your first sentence was the most relevant and outweighs any positive spin you put on the rest of the numbers:

1 hour ago, jmac+djaxallday said:

First off, we need to accept that this is arguably both the oldest and the slowest defense in the league. 

 

[D.WATSfromda757]

I just came to say, those ol heads on the dline are fine. If anything, they have to be one of the top three most held dlines in the game.

[toolg]

Some defense here: 

2 hours ago, jmac+djaxallday said:

First off, we need to accept that this is arguably both the oldest and the slowest defense in the league. 

Not only old and slow. They are tired too. 

Not good... Except they will be battle tested by the time the playoffs roll around. Let's hope they have something left in the tank.

[GreenMachine]

They are the worst 3rd down defense, they are terrible in the red zone giving up TD,s and they don't get much in turnovers.

The D cannot regress any further than they are right now.  Add to that the offense is predictable and other teams seem to have figured it out there isn't a whole lot of hope for post season success. These last 4 games which earlier were thought of as easy now look a lot tougher. Not sure if the wheels have fallen off the bandwagon but they are pretty loose. 

 

 

[EagleVA]

2 hours ago, jmac+djaxallday said:

First off, we need to accept that this is arguably both the oldest and the slowest defense in the league.  That was probably true even before Avonte Maddox, a player whose importance has been widely overlooked, was lost back in week two. 

Yes, you can't really complain about the players, they are what they are and old and slow is an accurate description. I will say this much, Maddox wouldn't have improved anything, I thought he was a horrible DB even when healthy......he makes 1 good play followed by 9 horrible plays, did not like!! 

If one wants to point the finger at who's to blame, all fingers should point to Howie, aka Mr. Peanut Head.  That egotistical/ignorant-arse got it so bad that one shoudn't be surprised if he ignored the defense again in the upcoming draft.  He'll trade away valuable mid round draft picks for more washed up vets looking for their last payday. 

He also need to bring in stronger RBs that will keep the chains moving thus providing rest for the D and better efficiency in red-zone scoring. Every year he passes on strong running RBs, the dude just doesn't understand the game, all he understands is Madden fantasy football......do not like!!  

[Kz!]

22 hours ago, EagleVA said:

If one wants to point the finger at who's to blame, all fingers should point to Howie, aka Mr. Peanut Head.  That egotistical/ignorant-arse got it so bad that one shoudn't be surprised if he ignored the defense again in the upcoming draft.  

Ignore the defense "again" in the draft? 5 of the 7 players we drafted last year were defensive players including 4 of the first 5 and our two first round picks.

[Vee]

23 hours ago, EagleVA said:

Yes, you can't really complain about the players, they are what they are and old and slow is an accurate description. I will say this much, Maddox wouldn't have improved anything, I thought he was a horrible DB even when healthy......he makes 1 good play followed by 9 horrible plays, did not like!! 

If one wants to point the finger at who's to blame, all fingers should point to Howie, aka Mr. Peanut Head.  That egotistical/ignorant-arse got it so bad that one shoudn't be surprised if he ignored the defense again in the upcoming draft.  He'll trade away valuable mid round draft picks for more washed up vets looking for their last payday. 

He also need to bring in stronger RBs that will keep the chains moving thus providing rest for the D and better efficiency in red-zone scoring. Every year he passes on strong running RBs, the dude just doesn't understand the game, all he understands is Madden fantasy football......do not like!!  

You are talking out of your arse. 

Most of the entire draft was spent on defense.  Please list valuable mid round draft picks traded away for washed up vets.  I will hang up and listen to your response on the air. (Let's define midround as 3-5?)

Lastly, you want him to bring in RBs, at the same time he's supposed to NOT ignore the defense....what is it that you want man?  I know you need probowlers at every position and I guess you're expecting him to draft an offensive and defensive player with every pick.  You have to stay out of the Multiverse!

[eggs]

On 12/14/2023 at 3:20 PM, D.WATSfromda757 said:

I just came to say, those ol heads on the dline are fine. If anything, they have to be one of the top three most held d lines in the game.

That's my view.  the difference between the D's standout performance last year, and much criticized performance this year, is that team's have improved at holding our pass rushers without getting called.

[eggs]

Just now, eggs said:

That's my view.  The difference between the D's standout performance last year, and much criticized performance this year, is that teams have improved at holding our pass rushers without getting called.

 

[NOTW]

1 hour ago, Kz! said:

Ignore the defense "again" in the draft? 5 of the 7 players we drafted last year were defensive players including 4 of the first 5 and our two first round picks.

 

35 minutes ago, Vee said:

You are talking out of your arse. 

Most of the entire draft was spent on defense.  Please list valuable mid round draft picks traded away for washed up vets.  I will hang up and listen to your response on the air. (Let's define midround as 3-5?)

Lastly, you want him to bring in RBs, at the same time he's supposed to NOT ignore the defense....what is it that you want man?  I know you need probowlers at every position and I guess you're expecting him to draft an offensive and defensive player with every pick.  You have to stay out of the Multiverse!

You're arguing with a guy who hates practically every move the Eagles make, thinks DeVonta Smith is a bum, Quez is great, celebrated Morrow as a great player, and hypes up practice squad RBs for some reason.

2023 draft: 5 defense, 2 offense. 1st round picks both defense.
2022 draft: 3 defense, 2 offense. 1st round pick defense.
2021 draft: 6 defense, 3 offense.  1st round pick offense.

Not to mention trades and free agent signings.

The issue isn't "ignoring" the defense, it's how they prioritize and allocate.  In the 1st round they haven't drafted a LB in 44 years, a Safety in 54 years and a corner in 22 years.  I understand prioritizing the lines, but you also have to draft these other defensive positions high occasionally.  People argue about talent that can be found in rounds 3 and beyond, but they don't scout those positions well and the guys they take are mostly busts.  This team was also supposed to be built on the lines and on offense scoring big points.  Howie let White and Edwards walk last year, relied on Nakobe Dean as a 2nd year unproven player, Blankenship as an UDFA and a 3rd round rookie in Brown at safety, and 2 aging vets at corner as well as Maddox in the slot who they should've cut because he's always hurt.

[PoconoDon]

Go ahead and defend the defense. After all, they certainly can't defend themselves...or anyone else apparently.

[judunno]

This is all Fangios fault. F that guy and his descendents.

[D.WATSfromda757]

2 hours ago, eggs said:

That's my view.  the difference between the D's standout performance last year, and much criticized performance this year, is that team's have improved at holding our pass rushers without getting called.

They could get more creative on the line though, more stunts and correctly executed blitzes…stop with the zero blitz on every down in the red zone with every team mess…etc.

[EagleVA]

3 hours ago, Kz! said:

Ignore the defense "again" in the draft? 5 of the 7 players we drafted last year were defensive players including 4 of the first 5 and our two first round picks.

Ignore the defense as in LB and DB.

[EagleVA]

2 hours ago, Vee said:

You are talking out of your arse. 

Most of the entire draft was spent on defense.  Please list valuable mid round draft picks traded away for washed up vets.  I will hang up and listen to your response on the air. (Let's define midround as 3-5?)

Lastly, you want him to bring in RBs, at the same time he's supposed to NOT ignore the defense....what is it that you want man?  I know you need probowlers at every position and I guess you're expecting him to draft an offensive and defensive player with every pick.  You have to stay out of the Multiverse!

When I say ignore the defense I'm speaking of positions of need, namely S, CB and LB, moreover I'm not just speaking of this year, it's been since forever.

When you have positions of need, you should draft multiple players at the positions that are manned by 2 or more players as does S, CB, and LB, hoping that 1 will work out.  

So, they decided to go with washed up Bradberry and Slay at CB, while drafting Ringo only, who, from his his playing tie hasn't worked out, at S they decided to go with washed up players that they ended up cutting 2 of them, while drafted undersized Sydney Brown, who also based on his playing time hasn't worked out, at LB they decided to go with nobody and drafted nobody.

You define mid round as picks 3-5, I define it as picks 4-6, from my perspective 3rd round picks should be starters at position of need.  So I'm not about to research all of the trades prior to the season that were traded but Howie does it every year, trading away picks for pretty much nothing.

As for RB, it only takes 1 if he has the running style needed, namely a downhill runner that will keep the chains moving, as I've said many times, your best defense is a ball controlling offense via the run game, if they ain't got the ball they can't score.  Since everybody is looking for the next Barry Sanders, those downhill runners can be found easily in rounds 4-6, damn near every year, the dumb sheets should have drafted Rodriguez from Kentucky.  

The problem with many of you guys is you're so pro-Eagle fans that you can't see where the FO is f-ing up, and if you don't think they're f-ing up just watch the defense play.

 

[brkmsn]

3 hours ago, EagleVA said:

When I say ignore the defense I'm speaking of positions of need, namely S, CB and LB, moreover I'm not just speaking of this year, it's been since forever.

When you have positions of need, you should draft multiple players at the positions that are manned by 2 or more players as does S, CB, and LB, hoping that 1 will work out.  

So, they decided to go with washed up Bradberry and Slay at CB, while drafting Ringo only, who, from his his playing tie hasn't worked out, at S they decided to go with washed up players that they ended up cutting 2 of them, while drafted undersized Sydney Brown, who also based on his playing time hasn't worked out, at LB they decided to go with nobody and drafted nobody.

You define mid round as picks 3-5, I define it as picks 4-6, from my perspective 3rd round picks should be starters at position of need.  So I'm not about to research all of the trades prior to the season that were traded but Howie does it every year, trading away picks for pretty much nothing.

As for RB, it only takes 1 if he has the running style needed, namely a downhill runner that will keep the chains moving, as I've said many times, your best defense is a ball controlling offense via the run game, if they ain't got the ball they can't score.  Since everybody is looking for the next Barry Sanders, those downhill runners can be found easily in rounds 4-6, damn near every year, the dumb sheets should have drafted Rodriguez from Kentucky.  

The problem with many of you guys is you're so pro-Eagle fans that you can't see where the FO is f-ing up, and if you don't think they're f-ing up just watch the defense play.

 

In 2016:

Blake Countess (rd 6)

Jalen Mills (rd 7)

Joe Walker (rd 7)

 

In 2017:

Sidney Jones (rd 2)

Rasul Douglas (rd 3)

Nate Gerry (rd 5)

 

In 2018:

Avonte Maddox (rd 4)

 

In 2020:

Davion Taylor (rd 3)

K'Von Wallace (rd 4)

Shaun Bradley (rd 6)

 

In 2021:

Zech McPhearson (rd 4)

JaCoby Stevens (rd 6)

 

In 2022:

Nakobe Dean (rd 3)

 

In 2023:

Nolan Smith (rd1)

Sydney Brown (rd 3)

Kelee Ringo (rd 4)

 

Trades: 

2017: J Matt + 3rd for Ronald Darby / Terrance Brooks for Dexter McDougle

2018: Torrey Smith for Daryl Worley / 2019 7th rd pick for Deiondre Hall

2019: Ryan Bates for Eli Harold / Bruce Hector for Rudy Ford / Johnathan Cyprien and 2020 7th for Duke Riley and 2020 6th / 2021 4th for Genard Avery

2020: 3rd and 5th for Slay 

2021: Jameson Houston and 2023 6th for Josiah Scott / Zach Ertz for Tay Gowan and 2022 5th / 2022 6th (multi-team trade) for Kary Vincent

2022: JJAW for Ugo Amadi / 2023 5th and 2024 6th for CJGJ

2023: Terrell Edmunds, a 2024 5th and 6th for Byard. 

 

I'm not really seeing positions that are ignored. The Eagles have thrown a lot of darts using assets. With the exceptions of Slay and Byard, they have been for younger players. We've also added players such as Bradberry, K. White, Morrow, Cunningham, Edmunds, Leonard, Roby, S. Nelson, etc.. in free agency and developed undrafted players such as TJ Edwards, Alex Singleton, Marcus Epps, Reed Blankenship into quality or solid NFL starters. 

It's also way too early to claim anybody from the 2023 draft class "hasn't worked out." I know you just don't want to believe it, but most players need a few seasons to develop into quality players. When 3rd or 4th rd picks are starters from day 1 on a team, that's usually an indication that the team is a losing team, not one that is coming off a Super Bowl appearance and tied for the best record in football after 14 weeks. 

 

[opa-opa]

The only time the Eagles won the SB was when they had a big bruising RB.

We need someone like that right now.

[Diehardfan]

1 hour ago, opa-opa said:

The only time the Eagles won the SB was when they had a big bruising RB.

We need someone like that right now.

Who dresses you mean? They leave that tool in the shed every week. 

[LacesOut]

You can defend them.

They  just need to play average. Get off the field on 3rd down. Press coverage a little more. DL, block/tip some passes if you're not getting to the QB. Tackle better. 
 
The thing they - unfortunately- cannot change is their talent. I mean heck, they lost 5 starters from last years D. 
 
Just win 2 more games, get to 12-5, see what happens in the playoffs.

[EagleVA]

19 hours ago, brkmsn said:

I'm not really seeing positions that are ignored.

Just look at the rounds they're picking those players you listed, when you see you have glaring need you spend high round picks, there's a reason we have the worst S group, CB group LB group of players in the NF, the reason is because the positions has been ignored.....or do you think they've been addressed? 

Moreover, concerning your trades, you have to look at trades for the whole season, offseason, in-season, and draft day trades.

[brkmsn]

42 minutes ago, EagleVA said:

Just look at the rounds they're picking those players you listed, when you see you have glaring need you spend high round picks, there's a reason we have the worst S group, CB group LB group of players in the NF, the reason is because the positions has been ignored.....or do you think they've been addressed? 

Moreover, concerning your trades, you have to look at trades for the whole season, offseason, in-season, and draft day trades.

You said:

Quote

When you have positions of need, you should draft multiple players at the positions that are manned by 2 or more players as does S, CB, and LB, hoping that 1 will work out.  

Obviously, in order to draft multiple players at a position, you have to use draft picks in later rounds. Whether you use a 1st round pick or a 7th, you still have to hope it will "work out." We drafted Dillard with a 1st round pick and Mailata with a 7th --- only one worked out. We drafted Barnett with a 1st round pick and Sweat with a 4th. We used a 3rd rd pick on athletically gifted D Taylor (LB) and an undrafted rookie free agent with limited athleticism was the better player. 

I agree with trying out lots of players and trying to develop the ones that show something. But you have to give that process the necessary time. Just because a team may have a need at CB does not mean it doesn't have other needs. When a high pick like Dillard, JJAW, Reagor, etc... fails, it's fair to go back and say, "what if ..." if that's your thing. But each of those guys was a position of need at the time of their pick. It's not like the NFL separates the draft by position and says each team has 7 rounds for each position. Each team has to assemble a draft board and assign values to players at all positions and then try to make the best decision when their turn comes to select. 

 

As for the trades, I was only showing the ones involving LBs and DBs. When it comes to trades, players have to be available for a price you are willing to give up. So It's not like teams can just go get anybody they want at any time. It takes (at least) 2 teams to work out a trade.

[xxeaglesfanxx]

There is no defense for the defense. It’s been bad… really really bad.