Eagles have the worst DC in Eagles history compared to talent that had available to them on the team

[JournalistMic]

The Eagles finished the season with the third worst team to allow the most points in the league. PA (Points Against) column as shown below.

This is unacceptable when you see what DC JG did with almost the exact same players last season.

 

[UK_EaglesFan89]

This is false though. Last year they had CJGJ who was a very good Safety who came up with 6/7 INTs. They had a DT who got double digit sacks. They had Slay and Bradberry a year younger. They had TJ Edwards who turned out to be a pretty good LB and even White was about average (maybe slightly below average). Cox and BG were also a year younger. So to say they've had the same talent is wrong. Look the DC appointment hasn't worked out, Desai didn't do a good enough job and Patricia has managed to be worse. But they are not working with a particularly talented group. Scheme and execution is an issue too and that is on the players as well as the coaches.

[Cochis_Calhoun]

'Almost exactly the same players', except for one of their starting DT's who got double digit sacks, both their starting linebackers, both their starting safeties and 3 rotational defensive linemen.

[time2rock]

Exact same players?  Ummmmm ... 

Hargrave

Edwards

White

CJGJ

Epps

Add to that Bradberry has been ass all season while last year he was one of the top CBs in the league and missing Maddox for most of 2023.  

[Mat]

3 hours ago, time2rock said:

Exact same players?  Ummmmm ... 

Hargrave

Edwards

White

CJGJ

Epps

Add to that Bradberry has been ass all season while last year he was one of the top CBs in the league and missing Maddox for most of 2023.  

I'm wondering how much this has to do with scheme. He was pretty good with the Panthers, was excellent his first year with the Giants and then struggled when asked to play more man the year after. He has been elite as a zone corner in the past and pretty good when pressing up. This article sums up his play from last year. 

https://www.bleedinggreennation.com/2023/2/27/23615777/eagles-all-22-film-review-james-bradberry-contract-nfl-free-agency-cornerback-philadelphia-breakdown

I'd be curious to see what his numbers are like in man coverage and how much he has been pressing. He has been awful this year but there may be more to it

Gannon was a DB coach before he was the Eagles D coordinator. The secondary when he was at the Vikings as and assistant and the Colts when he was the DB coach had fantastic numbers. He would scheme to help out the DB's. Cox in particular hated Gannon's scheme in his first year since the d-line couldn't be aggressive and teams were picking them apart. They made some changes and last year it provided a ton of sack numbers with the right guys in the secondary being able to make plays. Patricia is an absolute disaster, but before writing a few of these guys off I'd like to see them with someone else running the show as the DC. 

[Devaster]

The coordinator replacements were not up to the task this season. That much is clear. Need to clean house and hire some veteran coordinators I think.

[dawkins4prez]

The Philly Dawgs are practically all busts.  That's the harshest of harsh truths I'm not hearing anybody admit.

[NOTW]

Bad DC?  Check.

Talent?  Uh, hold on.  

 

[opa-opa]

Teams are also playing us differently this year, they get the ball out really quickly, and we have no answer for it so far.

Also you have to consider the fact that in so many games last year we were up big by halftime so the D had a much easier time.

These things don't exist in a vacuum. You have to consider how the whole team performed last year.

[time2rock]

3 hours ago, Mat said:

I'm wondering how much this has to do with scheme. He was pretty good with the Panthers, was excellent his first year with the Giants and then struggled when asked to play more man the year after. He has been elite as a zone corner in the past and pretty good when pressing up. This article sums up his play from last year. 

https://www.bleedinggreennation.com/2023/2/27/23615777/eagles-all-22-film-review-james-bradberry-contract-nfl-free-agency-cornerback-philadelphia-breakdown

I'd be curious to see what his numbers are like in man coverage and how much he has been pressing. He has been awful this year but there may be more to it

Gannon was a DB coach before he was the Eagles D coordinator. The secondary when he was at the Vikings as and assistant and the Colts when he was the DB coach had fantastic numbers. He would scheme to help out the DB's. Cox in particular hated Gannon's scheme in his first year since the d-line couldn't be aggressive and teams were picking them apart. They made some changes and last year it provided a ton of sack numbers with the right guys in the secondary being able to make plays. Patricia is an absolute disaster, but before writing a few of these guys off I'd like to see them with someone else running the show as the DC. 

Oh I'm 100% positive scheme not only contributes but plays a fairly large role.  In addition to Gannon, the loss of Wilson was a huge blow.  

[Mat]

7 hours ago, time2rock said:

Oh I'm 100% positive scheme not only contributes but plays a fairly large role.  In addition to Gannon, the loss of Wilson was a huge blow.  

Gannon also took the Eagles LB'er coach in Nick Rallis to be his DC. So they lost their DC and two of the positional coaches that seemed to be doing a good job with their units.

White ended up signing with the Cardinals as well and was their defensive captain. He had the familiarity with the defense last season and could help line people up correctly. 

Whatever Desai was trying to implement wasn't working. They were awful on third down before the change over and teams were walking all over them for a half. Some of the games earlier in the season he did a really great job with adjustments, but then you had the Washington game where Howell sliced his way through the D and was able to tie the game forcing OT. It then got pretty bad vs the 49'ers and Dallas. Those adjustments maybe should have been enough to give him the benefit of the doubt for this season, especially with players dropping off, but there must have been more going on behind the scenes to force the move. 

Looking at the 2021 Eagles which was their first year under Gannon, they had 29 sacks for the season (only Atlanta was worse with 18), they gave up a completion percentage of 69.4% which was the tied worst in the league with the Jags and they were middle of the road in every other pass defense category. They were pretty good in average yards per rush allowing 4 which was tied 5th best, but gave up 18 TD's which was top 10. Year 2 they were able to bring in personnel that fit the scheme better and the sack numbers went through the roof from second last to historically good. I think regardless of who they bring in next year, the D isn't going to be amazing. It might take a second year for the coordinator to get the right players in to really have a significant impact. Although if they were playing like a mid table D on third down instead of historically bad this season would look quite different. 

[time2rock]

7 hours ago, Mat said:

Gannon also took the Eagles LB'er coach in Nick Rallis to be his DC. So they lost their DC and two of the positional coaches that seemed to be doing a good job with their units.

White ended up signing with the Cardinals as well and was their defensive captain. He had the familiarity with the defense last season and could help line people up correctly. 

Whatever Desai was trying to implement wasn't working. They were awful on third down before the change over and teams were walking all over them for a half. Some of the games earlier in the season he did a really great job with adjustments, but then you had the Washington game where Howell sliced his way through the D and was able to tie the game forcing OT. It then got pretty bad vs the 49'ers and Dallas. Those adjustments maybe should have been enough to give him the benefit of the doubt for this season, especially with players dropping off, but there must have been more going on behind the scenes to force the move. 

Looking at the 2021 Eagles which was their first year under Gannon, they had 29 sacks for the season (only Atlanta was worse with 18), they gave up a completion percentage of 69.4% which was the tied worst in the league with the Jags and they were middle of the road in every other pass defense category. They were pretty good in average yards per rush allowing 4 which was tied 5th best, but gave up 18 TD's which was top 10. Year 2 they were able to bring in personnel that fit the scheme better and the sack numbers went through the roof from second last to historically good. I think regardless of who they bring in next year, the D isn't going to be amazing. It might take a second year for the coordinator to get the right players in to really have a significant impact. Although if they were playing like a mid table D on third down instead of historically bad this season would look quite different. 

Good stuff.  One of the problems I have with Howie continually filling in holes with 1 year rentals is that they usually aren't retained beyond year 1 ... if they play fairly well here (like the example you used in White), then we are back to square 1 trying to find a right player that fits the scheme.  It sure would help if he would invest draft resources in some of those areas (and actually hit on them) we would have them under control for 4 years (added benefit under cheaper rookie contract) so the roster shuffling wouldn't be so frequent.  

[UK_EaglesFan89]

3 hours ago, time2rock said:

Good stuff.  One of the problems I have with Howie continually filling in holes with 1 year rentals is that they usually aren't retained beyond year 1 ... if they play fairly well here (like the example you used in White), then we are back to square 1 trying to find a right player that fits the scheme.  It sure would help if he would invest draft resources in some of those areas (and actually hit on them) we would have them under control for 4 years (added benefit under cheaper rookie contract) so the roster shuffling wouldn't be so frequent.  

Completely agree with you. They need to find more than 1 year rentals because either 1) those guys play well and then move on or 2) they are on a 1 year cheap deal for a reason and are just not very good.

[time2rock]

6 minutes ago, UK_EaglesFan89 said:

Completely agree with you. They need to find more than 1 year rentals because either 1) those guys play well and then move on or 2) they are on a 1 year cheap deal for a reason and are just not very good.

It just sucks when parts of the roster (e.g. LB, S) are turned over so frequently ... it doesn't give those units the chance to develop chemistry playing next to one another to get good.  I get it ... "life in the NFL" ... but we seem to deal with that at a much higher frequency than the usual (in particular at those positions).  

[UK_EaglesFan89]

Just now, time2rock said:

It just sucks when parts of the roster (e.g. LB, S) are turned over so frequently ... it doesn't give those units the chance to develop chemistry playing next to one another to get good.  I get it ... "life in the NFL" ... but we seem to deal with that at a much higher frequency than the usual (in particular at those positions).  

Completely agree! And whilst we as fans want instant results and success (because winning is what sports are mostly about) we also know that things can take time and players do need to build chemistry etc.

[JohnB]

20 hours ago, dawkins4prez said:

The Philly Dawgs are practically all busts.  That's the harshest of harsh truths I'm not hearing anybody admit.

aren't they mostly rookies and/or 1 year guys? I still think expecting every rookie to come in and make an immediate impact is a little unrealistic. When they are 3-4 years in and doing nothing significant, then you have an argument

[NOTW]

22 hours ago, dawkins4prez said:

The Philly Dawgs are practically all busts.  That's the harshest of harsh truths I'm not hearing anybody admit.

No, they're not.  This isn't fair to say this year given the state of the defense.  They also say to not judge a draft until after 3 years, and it's been 2 years with Davis and Dean and only 1 year with the rookies.  Plus veterans are having bad years here too.  The coaching is horrible, and the roster around them isn't helping with garbage and scraps at certain positions.  

• Davis: not a bust, a disappointment for being taken at #13 and trading up.  His rookie year he was a monster stopping the run.  Fans were mad he didn't get enough snaps and thought the defense suffered when he was out.  Conditioning and not playing all downs in GA were known coming into the league, they knew they were rolling the dice a bit hoping he'd condition over time and be worth it in the long run.  He didn't play a lot of snaps last year, due to Hargrave and Cox being starters.  They also went to the SB so the offseason was shorter.  Both he and Carter hit the rookie wall this year, the entire defense was exhausted and defeated after the Bills game playing so many snaps.  So while it sucks that Davis wore down at the end of the season, so did a lot of other players.  They will need to work with him on nutrition and conditioning in the offseason so that in year 3 he can solidify the position.  Him next to Carter should be solid for years to come.
• Dean: jury is still out.  He fell in the draft because of his pre-draft injury, they took a gamble on a 3rd round pick.  He only started getting playing time late in his rookie season and showed some promise.  They should not have relied on him in year 2 as the answer at LB, they should have re-signed Kyzir White (Edwards wasn't coming back).  Having quality next to him for his first year becoming starter would have helped.  Now he got injured so we'll see how he does next year.  Someone posted stats that the run defense was a lot better with Dean than it was after he got injured.  So not ready to call him a bust for a 3rd round gamble.  
• Carter: obviously not a bust, hence you said "practically" so shouldn't need to say much other than he hit the rookie wall and was getting double teamed all year.  Excited for him after an offseason of conditioning and growing to take the next steps.
• Nolan Smith: can't say yet.  They don't give rookies many snaps to begin with so we haven't seen enough of him.  Everyone loved the pick at the time.  He's a guy that we won't see much of until year 2, maybe even year 3.  They've had guys that developed into starters later in their contract so we'll see.  Way too early to say.  
• Ringo: not a bust.  A 4th round pick drafted to develop with no intention of starting anytime soon since they had veteran corners with big contracts.  No way you can call him a bust at all.  In fact, he's showed promise getting starts late in the season.  A lot of fans have liked him, would rather see him start over Bradberry.

If you want to include D'Andre Swift from GA who they acquired via trade, clearly a 1,000 yard rusher not a bust.

 

[Mat]

5 hours ago, time2rock said:

Good stuff.  One of the problems I have with Howie continually filling in holes with 1 year rentals is that they usually aren't retained beyond year 1 ... if they play fairly well here (like the example you used in White), then we are back to square 1 trying to find a right player that fits the scheme.  It sure would help if he would invest draft resources in some of those areas (and actually hit on them) we would have them under control for 4 years (added benefit under cheaper rookie contract) so the roster shuffling wouldn't be so frequent.  

I think part of that is he views certain positions as expendable, particularly the second lb'er and safety spot. You aren't going to have stars all over the field and they are the two positions that adequate play will get you by. 

Looking at the guys they lot go defensively, I feel like they didn't have a lot of choice with those options, even if they wanted to re-sign them. They also have some guys they want to develop to be replacements but they may not be investing the 'draft capital' of a high end pick in certain positions but are taking guys that they think they can develop into those replacements. 

White was fantastic to start the year but I feel like teams started to target him down the stretch and he was meh. They took a similar risk with Morrow and once he sucked in TC they brought in Cunningham and Jack. Cunningham was solid for most of the year before getting injured.

Epps is one they developed but he is mediocre and they thought they could easily replace him with Blankenship who flashed potential last year. I don't think Epps has been all that great for the Raiders this year and they probably thought they could bring in Evans and Edmunds for half of what Epps was making and take a shot with one of them performing well enough (which flopped).

CJGJ had the offer from the Eagles, wanted to test FA and left out of spite even though they offered him more. Blankenship had great stats in the period that he covered for him last year so they gave him a shot with the job. I have him listed here twice, but I think they wanted to keep CJGJ and play Blankenship next to him originally. He is young and he is one they could develop into a player but I feel he has some physical limitations right now in the size and speed departments. They added Brown in the draft as another guy that they can develop to hopefully be a long term guy but the ACL will set that back. It's not a first round pick, but they are attempting to add guys they think can contribute in the long run and they did flash

Edwards was always leaving to go play for the Bears, they weren't going to realistically keep him and they replaced him with Dean. While Dean was a third round pick he was looked at as having first round talent. This is exactly the type of scenario where you invest in a resource that you hope can be a longer term starter. Edwards was a guy that they developed as an undrafted player and he was excellent his last season here. I posted in another thread how a lot of the top LB'ers (that aren't edge guys) are 3rd round and later picks. So it's not just a Howie thing with this position, you will have guys like Smith but Matt Milano was a 5th round pick for the Bills, 

Hargrave was the big loss but they went and drafted Carter who will probably win defensive rookie of the year to replace him. It's almost impossible to replace someone of Hargraves abilities with a ready made player unless you fork out a crap ton of money and it is something they couldn't afford to do. They also invested a premium pick in Davis the year prior and were hoping to get enough production from these two along with Milton Williams to replace him and Cox in future seasons. 

Offensively they drafted Kelce's replacement in Dickerson, when he starred as a guard they went out and got Jurgens. They developed Mailata while he sat on the bench. Maybe they look at RT this draft to replace Lane and hope that Steen can develop into a great RG. 

[Mat]

4 minutes ago, NOTW said:

No, they're not.  This isn't fair to say this year given the state of the defense.  They also say to not judge a draft until after 3 years, and it's been 2 years with Davis and Dean and only 1 year with the rookies.  Plus veterans are having bad years here too.  The coaching is horrible, and the roster around them isn't helping with garbage and scraps at certain positions.  

• Davis: not a bust, a disappointment for being taken at #13 and trading up.  His rookie year he was a monster stopping the run.  Fans were mad he didn't get enough snaps and thought the defense suffered when he was out.  Conditioning and not playing all downs in GA were known coming into the league, they knew they were rolling the dice a bit hoping he'd condition over time and be worth it in the long run.  He didn't play a lot of snaps last year, due to Hargrave and Cox being starters.  They also went to the SB so the offseason was shorter.  Both he and Carter hit the rookie wall this year, the entire defense was exhausted and defeated after the Bills game playing so many snaps.  So while it sucks that Davis wore down at the end of the season, so did a lot of other players.  They will need to work with him on nutrition and conditioning in the offseason so that in year 3 he can solidify the position.  Him next to Carter should be solid for years to come.
• Dean: jury is still out.  He fell in the draft because of his pre-draft injury, they took a gamble on a 3rd round pick.  He only started getting playing time late in his rookie season and showed some promise.  They should not have relied on him in year 2 as the answer at LB, they should have re-signed Kyzir White (Edwards wasn't coming back).  Having quality next to him for his first year becoming starter would have helped.  Now he got injured so we'll see how he does next year.  Someone posted stats that the run defense was a lot better with Dean than it was after he got injured.  So not ready to call him a bust for a 3rd round gamble.  
• Carter: obviously not a bust, hence you said "practically" so shouldn't need to say much other than he hit the rookie wall and was getting double teamed all year.  Excited for him after an offseason of conditioning and growing to take the next steps.
• Nolan Smith: can't say yet.  They don't give rookies many snaps to begin with so we haven't seen enough of him.  Everyone loved the pick at the time.  He's a guy that we won't see much of until year 2, maybe even year 3.  They've had guys that developed into starters later in their contract so we'll see.  Way too early to say.  
• Ringo: not a bust.  A 4th round pick drafted to develop with no intention of starting anytime soon since they had veteran corners with big contracts.  No way you can call him a bust at all.  In fact, he's showed promise getting starts late in the season.  A lot of fans have liked him, would rather see him start over Bradberry.

If you want to include D'Andre Swift from GA who they acquired via trade, clearly a 1,000 yard rusher not a bust.

 

Ringo has been surprisingly good as a rookie when he has seen time on the field. He could turn out to be a pretty good pick for this team. 

[dawkins4prez]

3 minutes ago, NOTW said:

No, they're not.  This isn't fair to say this year given the state of the defense.  They also say to not judge a draft until after 3 years, and it's been 2 years with Davis and Dean and only 1 year with the rookies.  Plus veterans are having bad years here too.  The coaching is horrible, and the roster around them isn't helping with garbage and scraps at certain positions.  

• Davis: not a bust, a disappointment for being taken at #13 and trading up.  His rookie year he was a monster stopping the run.  Fans were mad he didn't get enough snaps and thought the defense suffered when he was out.  Conditioning and not playing all downs in GA were known coming into the league, they knew they were rolling the dice a bit hoping he'd condition over time and be worth it in the long run.  He didn't play a lot of snaps last year, due to Hargrave and Cox being starters.  They also went to the SB so the offseason was shorter.  Both he and Carter hit the rookie wall this year, the entire defense was exhausted and defeated after the Bills game playing so many snaps.  So while it sucks that Davis wore down at the end of the season, so did a lot of other players.  They will need to work with him on nutrition and conditioning in the offseason so that in year 3 he can solidify the position.  Him next to Carter should be solid for years to come.
• Dean: jury is still out.  He fell in the draft because of his pre-draft injury, they took a gamble on a 3rd round pick.  He only started getting playing time late in his rookie season and showed some promise.  They should not have relied on him in year 2 as the answer at LB, they should have re-signed Kyzir White (Edwards wasn't coming back).  Having quality next to him for his first year becoming starter would have helped.  Now he got injured so we'll see how he does next year.  Someone posted stats that the run defense was a lot better with Dean than it was after he got injured.  So not ready to call him a bust for a 3rd round gamble.  
• Carter: obviously not a bust, hence you said "practically" so shouldn't need to say much other than he hit the rookie wall and was getting double teamed all year.  Excited for him after an offseason of conditioning and growing to take the next steps.
• Nolan Smith: can't say yet.  They don't give rookies many snaps to begin with so we haven't seen enough of him.  Everyone loved the pick at the time.  He's a guy that we won't see much of until year 2, maybe even year 3.  They've had guys that developed into starters later in their contract so we'll see.  Way too early to say.  
• Ringo: not a bust.  A 4th round pick drafted to develop with no intention of starting anytime soon since they had veteran corners with big contracts.  No way you can call him a bust at all.  In fact, he's showed promise getting starts late in the season.  A lot of fans have liked him, would rather see him start over Bradberry.

If you want to include D'Andre Swift from GA who they acquired via trade, clearly a 1,000 yard rusher not a bust.

 

  Denial smells of denial.

 

Davis wasn't picked at #13 to stuff the run, he would've been a 4th rdr if that's what they thought.  So far he's got 1 yr of great run stuffing and now we're talking about conditioning going into his THIRD NFl offeseason.

 

Dean's a friggin' off ball LB 3rd pick.  You're half way through his contract and have gotten SQUAT.  

 

Smith also a 1st rd pick, we haven't even seen a flash.

 

Ringo whatever we'll see.

 

Carter looked like a star 1st half of season, now we don't know.

 

So yeah, the Philly Dawgs are currently on track to about 3/5 busts with a very possible outcome of zero star players out of 3 1st's  a 3rd and a 4th.

[time2rock]

2 minutes ago, Mat said:

I think part of that is he views certain positions as expendable, particularly the second lb'er and safety spot. You aren't going to have stars all over the field and they are the two positions that adequate play will get you by. 

 

Didn't want to quote the whole post since it is somewhat lengthy but I am not suggesting they need stars at every spot (no team has that), but having players that grow together and know what the other will be doing (which is developed over time from playing together) would be huge.  Right now they are running into one another and blowing assignments because they think someone else should be in position to make a play.  They can get by with just "decent" talent if they were all on the same page.  

[Mat]

8 minutes ago, time2rock said:

Didn't want to quote the whole post since it is somewhat lengthy but I am not suggesting they need stars at every spot (no team has that), but having players that grow together and know what the other will be doing (which is developed over time from playing together) would be huge.  Right now they are running into one another and blowing assignments because they think someone else should be in position to make a play.  They can get by with just "decent" talent if they were all on the same page.  

That's 100% on the defensive coaching. It has been infinitely worse with Patricia. The players have no idea what he is asking them to do and that's showing. There was one play in particular that still sticks out that the ball was about to be snapped and half the D was still trying to work out where they had to be. 

[Kz!]

2 hours ago, dawkins4prez said:

  Denial smells of denial.

 

Davis wasn't picked at #13 to stuff the run, he would've been a 4th rdr if that's what they thought.  So far he's got 1 yr of great run stuffing and now we're talking about conditioning going into his THIRD NFl offeseason.

 

Dean's a friggin' off ball LB 3rd pick.  You're half way through his contract and have gotten SQUAT.  

 

Smith also a 1st rd pick, we haven't even seen a flash.

 

Ringo whatever we'll see.

 

Carter looked like a star 1st half of season, now we don't know.

 

So yeah, the Philly Dawgs are currently on track to about 3/5 busts with a very possible outcome of zero star players out of 3 1st's  a 3rd and a 4th.

So we've seen flashes of having a "great run stuffer" (your words).

Flashes of having a "star."

And then a bunch of guys we haven't seen much of because they redshirted as first year guys or, in Dean's case, suffered an injury that kept him out of the lineup. Sure, I guess if you want to take the overly pessimistic beech-and-moan-because-we've-dropped-a-bunch-of-games-recently approach, all the Bulldogs are "practically busts." More realistically, though, we've likely got at least one good DT, a potential star DT, and three mostly unknowns who were all really good college players on a historically great college football defense.

[dawkins4prez]

12 minutes ago, Kz! said:

So we've seen flashes of having a "great run stuffer" (your words).

Flashes of having a "star."

And then a bunch of guys we haven't seen much of because they redshirted as first year guys or, in Dean's case, suffered an injury that kept him out of the lineup. Sure, I guess if you want to take the overly pessimistic beech-and-moan-because-we've-dropped-a-bunch-of-games-recently approach, all the Bulldogs are "practically busts." More realistically, though, we've likely got at least one good DT, a potential star DT, and three mostly unknowns who were all really good college players on a historically great college football defense.

Bigger busts than your swamp troll man boobs!

[The Norseman]

I'm confused.  Are we talking about Desai or Patricia here?