These two just never stop

[Bwestbrook36]

34 minutes ago, Utebird said:

I dont remember him calling Romo a homosexual, that was Garcia in SF.

Alshon Jeffrey said wentz threw too much to ertz in not so many words.

TO was a distraction and ive also heard tons of teammates go to bat for him for his work ethic snd competitive nature and ability to help them win.

Either way I would like to think McNabb and owens both effed this up and cost themselves super bowls. Neither one of them are willing to let this sheet go so that tells me that they both were at fault and neither of them like the children they always were will ever admit that

[PhillyGreenMachine]

1 hour ago, Utebird said:

Was he wrong about Garrett? Its not like after they got rid of TO anything changed, same ol same ol dysfunctional cowboys.

When they got rid of him, the team went 11-5 and beat the eventual super bowl champions in New Orleans. Also, the cowboys parted ways with him because of his attitude 

[Utebird]

4 hours ago, PhillyGreenMachine said:

 the team went 11-5 and beat the eventual super bowl champions in New Orleans. 

Wow, maybe they can put that on a trophy😒

[EazyEaglez]

8 hours ago, PhillyGreenMachine said:

 I made this commentary video about it a while back, I will admit that I added very little about the contract. 

I don’t think it’s particularly fair to expect McNabb to be able to control a grown man who couldn’t even control himself around Jerry Rice. If anything it’s Andy Reid’s responsibility to control his locker room. In the end these men allowed their egos to end a good thing, but it still comes back to Owens. He signed the contract that led him down this path. I don’t think T.O. was being greedy. He certainly deserved more money, but the Eagles Did not have to restructure his deal since they operated in good faith. If he wasn’t so self absorbed he would have had all of Philadelphia behind him getting a new deal. In Dallas he was basically a cog in the machine. In Philadelphia he would have owned the city. All he had to be was a little patient. 

[PhillyGreenMachine]

1 minute ago, EazyEaglez said:

I don’t think it’s particularly fair to expect McNabb to be able to control a grown man who couldn’t even control himself around Jerry Rice. If anything it’s Andy Reid’s responsibility to control his locker room. In the end these men allowed their egos to end a good thing, but it still comes back to Owens. He signed the contract that led him down this path. I don’t think T.O. was being greedy. He certainly deserved more money, but the Eagles Did not have to restructure his deal since they operated in good faith. If he wasn’t so self absorbed he would have had all of Philadelphia behind him getting a new deal. In Dallas he was basically a cog in the machine. In Philadelphia he would have owned the city. All he had to be was a little patient. 

Well, I said that it was mcnabb’s responsibility because he was the guy’s keeper, he vouched for him. As for that contract, it was backloaded. He was about to get a crap ton later on in the deal.

[Nivraga]

6 hours ago, PhillyGreenMachine said:

Donovan’s best season wasn’t 2003. He had better seasons in 2002, 2008 and 2009. Also, he was a home wrecker in Dallas, blaming Romo, Witten and Garrett for why things soured 

I think you guys look at end of year stats to base your opinion. Those seasons may have been better overall statistically but 2003 WAS McNabb's best season. The Eagles were coming off a crushing defeat to close out the Vet in the 2002/03 NFCCG. I will give you that McNabb started the first 2 games of 2003 poorly losing at home to TB and NE. In week 3 @ Buffalo he played much better and the Eagles won but McNabb sprained the thumb on his throwing hand and wasn't healthy again until about week 6 or 7. 

I did this comparative before but I think previously my assertion was that the Eagles offense was better - not just McNabb - but I stand by my claim here that this was his best season. I'm comparing the last 10 regular season games of 2003 and the first 10 regular season games of 2004 - this is not cherry picking games. These are 2 sets of continuous games separated only by the 2003 playoff run - McNabb and Westbrook healthy in 2003 and McNabb Westbrook and TO healthy in 2004. This is also McNabb TO at their best - the last several games before TO's injury teams had game planned to limit TO - well, except week 12 vs Green Bay - apparently the Packers didn't get the memo. TO was 8 for 161 and 1. But it was Westbrook who killed the Packers receiving - 11 for 156 and 3. TO was hurt in week 14 - McNabb barely played in week 16 and not at all week 17.

Anyway - after recovering from the thumb injury McNabb led the Eagles to a 9 - 1 record to close out the 2003 season 

He was 184 for 288 (63.89%) 2362 yards (8.2 per attempt) 14 TD / 5 INT. 

The first 10 games of 2004 also 9-1

206 for 323 (63.78%) 2648 yards (8.2 per attempt) 22 TD / 5 INT.

 

What McNabb did in 2003 he did without TO and possibly the worst receiving corps in Football - I think several college teams boasted better talent. Similar to 2019 for Carson Wentz.

The only real receiving threat was Brian Westbrook and he was hurt in the final  rs game of 2003 - unavailable for the playoffs.

[TrotterIsGod]

I really don't worry about it these days. I tend to rely on my old pal Rusty.

 

[time2rock]

TO was Antonio Brown before Antonio Brown was Antonio Brown.

[toolg]

On 7/26/2020 at 7:48 PM, EazyEaglez said:

If he wasn’t so self absorbed he would have had all of Philadelphia behind him getting a new deal. In Dallas he was basically a cog in the machine. In Philadelphia he would have owned the city. All he had to be was a little patient. 

I agree. TO could have been as famous as AI or any other Philly athlete of the era. But TO didn't see it, his agent didn't see it... And even if TO was patient and the fans got behind him, the team still did not have to restructure the deal. I don't think they ever would have paid up. The Eagles even got TO at a discount. We all knew it. TO outplayed the contract and deserved to be paid more. I feel like Eagles FO wasn't going to budge no matter what. They would have rather traded him or let him walk. Then TOs antics made him untradeable. It was bound to be a disaster.

[EazyEaglez]

4 hours ago, toolg said:

I agree. TO could have been as famous as AI or any other Philly athlete of the era. But TO didn't see it, his agent didn't see it... And even if TO was patient and the fans got behind him, the team still did not have to restructure the deal. I don't think they ever would have paid up. The Eagles even got TO at a discount. We all knew it. TO outplayed the contract and deserved to be paid more. I feel like Eagles FO wasn't going to budge no matter what. They would have rather traded him or let him walk. Then TOs antics made him untradeable. It was bound to be a disaster.

It was year one, but TO was the fool who signed that contract. No matter how you slice it TO is at fault for all of it. 

[toolg]

Just now, EazyEaglez said:

It was year one, but TO was the fool who signed that contract. No matter how you slice it TO is at fault for all of it. 

Sure. TO deserves plenty of blame. His ego got in the way. But there's a lot of blame to go around: The Eagles for being cheap. TO's agents for putting nonsense in his ear to renegotiate. The 49ers for messing with his original deal in the first place....

There was no way it was going to end well for the Eagles. Either TO was going to play well and he'd regret the lowball contract he just signed (that's what happened.) Or he was going to stink and get cast out of town. (And that's kinda what happened too).

[EazyEaglez]

20 hours ago, toolg said:

Sure. TO deserves plenty of blame. His ego got in the way. But there's a lot of blame to go around: The Eagles for being cheap. TO's agents for putting nonsense in his ear to renegotiate. The 49ers for messing with his original deal in the first place....

There was no way it was going to end well for the Eagles. Either TO was going to play well and he'd regret the lowball contract he just signed (that's what happened.) Or he was going to stink and get cast out of town. (And that's kinda what happened too).

Owens got paid in Dallas and still had issues. Bottom line is he’s a selfish bad teammate. It all comes back to him, because he always made it about himself.

[QBhunter58]

I never liked TO when he was here because of his off-field behavior. Best receiver we ever had, top 3 talent all time, complete narcissist... both have had pretty awful post career lives on the surface, but i would give TO a slight edge (even though he is broke AF) mainly because he hasn't had run ins with the law and this...

 

14ish minutes

[BayAreaLennie]

On 7/26/2020 at 10:29 AM, Utebird said:

Yes Drew Rosenhaus is a leech, and yes TO outplayed his contract ...

Uhhhh, what?

In Mr. Owens' last four seasons with the 49ers from 2000-2003, he averaged 92.5 catches for 1316.3 yards and 14.2 TDs per year, while missing 1.25 games per year.  He was all-Pro from 2000-2002, and Pro Bowl all four seasons.

Owens signed a contract with the Eagles based on that level of production.

In 2004 with the Eagles, he had 77 catches for 1200 yards and 15 TDs, while missing 2 games.

That level of production is right on par with what he had been doing ... just a bit less on catches and yards, just a bit more on TDs.

So no, Owens did not "outperform" his contract.  He performed it, exactly as expected.

 

[Utebird]

2 hours ago, BayAreaLennie said:

Uhhhh, what?

In Mr. Owens' last four seasons with the 49ers from 2000-2003, he averaged 92.5 catches for 1316.3 yards and 14.2 TDs per year, while missing 1.25 games per year.  He was all-Pro from 2000-2002, and Pro Bowl all four seasons.

Owens signed a contract with the Eagles based on that level of production.

In 2004 with the Eagles, he had 77 catches for 1200 yards and 15 TDs, while missing 2 games.

That level of production is right on par with what he had been doing ... just a bit less on catches and yards, just a bit more on TDs.

So no, Owens did not "outperform" his contract.  He performed it, exactly as expected.

 

He was set to make 3.5 mil in 2005. 

He out performed that on one leg and wanted more. If anything why not give him more guaranteed money, or restructure somehow? 

In 2006 cowboys signed him for 25mil with 5 mil for 06

How difficult would it have been to give TO a bump up for 05 06 with more guaranteed?

[Bwestbrook36]

37 minutes ago, Utebird said:

He was set to make 3.5 mil in 2005. 

He out performed that on one leg and wanted more. If anything why not give him more guaranteed money, or restructure somehow? 

In 2006 cowboys signed him for 25mil with 5 mil for 06

How difficult would it have been to give TO a bump up for 05 06 with more guaranteed?

Wasn't that the argument when he went to the cowboys that he was basically making the same as the contract he had with the eagles? 

[Utebird]

43 minutes ago, Bwestbrook36 said:

Wasn't that the argument when he went to the cowboys that he was basically making the same as the contract he had with the eagles? 

Except it was guaranteed money.

[Bwestbrook36]

47 minutes ago, Utebird said:

Except it was guaranteed money.

Ok got you, I was just asking I remember something about that. 

[BayAreaLennie]

3 hours ago, Utebird said:

He was set to make 3.5 mil in 2005. 

He out performed that on one leg and wanted more. If anything why not give him more guaranteed money, or restructure somehow? 

In 2006 cowboys signed him for 25mil with 5 mil for 06

How difficult would it have been to give TO a bump up for 05 06 with more guaranteed?

Because they had just signed him to a 7 year contract the previous year.

Contracts are not structured in the NFL to pay a fair salary each season - they are structured to provide overall compensation over the course of the contract that works for both the player and the team.  It is very common for high-end players to have a low base salary in year 2 of a contract, because they got a large signing bonus (and/or guaranteed roster bonus).  For example, Carson Wentz in 2020 will have a base salary of less than $1.4 million and will receive a roster bonus of $8 million, for total compensation of less than $9.4 million.   That is far less than teams would pay him for a year of his services.  How unfair!!!  No, he got paid over $39 million in 2019 - he agreed not to be paid much in 2020 because of the signing bonus and other compensation, including guaranteed money, he received in 2019 and in future seasons.  Owens' contract was similarly structured with a signing bonus and guaranteed roster bonus.

So as said, Owens did not outperform his contract, and was perfectly fairly paid under the structure of his contract, not to mention the Eagles did him a favor by getting him out of SF like he wanted.  People do not get into business to give money away, especially when your business operates under a salary cap which restrains you from competing if you overspend.

 

[Utebird]

2 minutes ago, BayAreaLennie said:

Because they had just signed him to a 7 year contract the previous year.

Contracts are not structured in the NFL to pay a fair salary each season - they are structured to provide overall compensation that works for both the player and the team.  It is very common for high-end players to have a low base salary in year 2 of a contract, because they got a large signing bonus (and/or guaranteed roster bonus).  For example, Carson Wentz in 2020 will have a base salary of less than $1.4 million and will receive a roster bonus of $8 million, for total compensation of less than $9.4 million.   That is far less than teams would pay him for a year of his services.  How unfair!!!  No, he got paid over $39 million in 2019 - he agreed not to be paid much in 2020 because of the signing bonus and other compensation he received in 2019 and for future seasons.  Owens' contract was similarly structured with a signing bonus and guaranteed roster bonus.

So as said, Owens did not outperform his contract, and was perfectly fairly paid under the structure of his contract, not to mention the Eagles did him a favor by getting him out of SF like he wanted.  People do not get into business to give money away, especially when your business operates under a salary cap which restrains you from competing if you overspend.

 

I realize how nfl contracts work, and how difficult would it have been for banner/reid to say yeah you know what we realize your under paid for this season and the contract is backloaded for our protection not yours so yeah well meet you in the middle and give you more guaranteed money?

Work something out and maybe TO isnt doing sit ups on tv maybe the eagles get back to the super bowl in 2006 who knows but tossing a few more mil guaranteed at TO to keep him happy would have been worth it in my opinion.

[greend]

Meh. T.O. is an ahole and McNabb was/is an alcoholic . Who cares which one sucks the most?

[Bwestbrook36]

1 hour ago, greend said:

Meh. T.O. is an ahole and McNabb was/is and alcoholic . Who cares which one sucks the most?

Exactly at least Shaq and Kobe put their sheet aside to win a few championships

[PhillyGreenMachine]

19 hours ago, Utebird said:

I realize how nfl contracts work, and how difficult would it have been for banner/reid to say yeah you know what we realize your under paid for this season and the contract is backloaded for our protection not yours so yeah well meet you in the middle and give you more guaranteed money?

Work something out and maybe TO isnt doing sit ups on tv maybe the eagles get back to the super bowl in 2006 who knows but tossing a few more mil guaranteed at TO to keep him happy would have been worth it in my opinion.

He would have gotten more money in 2006, 2007 and 2008. 

[Bwestbrook36]

14 minutes ago, PhillyGreenMachine said:

He would have gotten more money in 2006, 2007 and 2008. 

Contracts are always back loaded not to many players reach the end of their contracts. It's all about the guaranteed up front money. 

[Nivraga]

20 hours ago, Bwestbrook36 said:

Contracts are always back loaded not to many players reach the end of their contracts. It's all about the guaranteed up front money. 

This is true except that at that time every player that the Eagles signed to long term money that played to the level of the contract realized every dime of their contract. The Eagles were among a few teams that didn't back load contracts for the purpose of damage control when the player was released after a few years. Giving in to TO would have created a bad precedent. Every player going forward that thinks they have outplayed their contract after 1 year knows that if they throw a tantrum the Eagles will give in. 

Every parent knows that giving a cookie to a child balling and stomping his feet just leads to more balling and foot stomping. I agree with the BayArea that TO did not in fact outplay his contract but it is all a matter of opinion. 

The other thing that TO and Rosenshit failed to see is that Vermeil still makes a pile of money in the Philadelphia area. Rosenshit was thinking of himself - not his client - otherwise he would have recognized TO's true value in endorsements. TO could have made a ton of money outside of football.