Just now, we_gotta_believe said:

This is where diehardfan does make a good point though, it was pretty clear that it took some convincing before Biden relented. He wasn't on-board with this at all for at least the first couple weeks, and he's still gonna have to sell this to his longtime supporters in his address tomorrow to avoid them becoming embittered.

I have a suspicion he waited until after the RNC on purpose. And that he also basically made them line it up for Harris. Joe has always had a soft spot for her because she was friends with Beau. I think he wanted to endorse her and know she would have momentum, not a food fight to get the nomination.

3 minutes ago, VanHammersly said:

Look, I get it.  It's rare.  It's happed before but it's not the usual.  But the guy was fading.  And the people that voted for him wanted him to step aside.  So this is how it's going down.

Do I feel bad for Biden?  Yeah, of course.

But do I wish it happened before the primary?  Actually, no, because I think this is more strategically well timed to win.

I appreciate all of you having patience with me as I inarticulately state how I see things. I'm not saying it's unfair or not smart. I tried to say that from the start along with pointing the finger at Trump and his supporters. I'm honestly shocked it turned into a few pages of this, and I take responsibility for that, obviously. I thought it was a fair point and everyone would just move on.  I do feel bad for Biden. I don't hate the guy. I'd prefer him over other options and I don't blame the Dems. 

11 minutes ago, Diehardfan said:

All I can go on was the stories that came out, his personal statements, campaign statements, and the fact his staff was caught off guard. That doesn't change the fact they had a debate in June with the purpose of having him removed from the ticket. 

100% agree with the first part, and we've already gone over the second part. 

1 minute ago, we_gotta_believe said:

This is where diehardfan does make a good point though, it was pretty clear that it took some convincing before Biden relented. He wasn't on-board with this at all for at least the first couple weeks, and he's still gonna have to sell this to his longtime supporters in his address tomorrow to avoid them becoming embittered.

He's 81 and struggling mentally. Shouldn't be a hard sell to say she wanted him to step down

 

1 minute ago, Diehardfan said:

I appreciate all of you having patience with me as I inarticulately state how I see things. I'm not saying it's unfair or not smart. I tried to say that from the start along with pointing the finger at Trump and his supporters. I'm honestly shocked it turned into a few pages of this, and I take responsibility for that, obviously. I thought it was a fair point and everyone would just move on.  

No one moves on on here.  Bring up camera shutter speed, I dare you!

1 minute ago, BBE said:

And by the rules of the primary you are wrong.

This conversation was for after the primary... so no

1 minute ago, Mike030270 said:

This conversation was for after the primary... so no

Was Harris on any primary ballot?  The answer is no.  There is the rub. No one explicitly voted for Harris and the Republicans if smart will use this against the "vote Harris to save democracy" talking point.

11 minutes ago, BBE said:

Was any ballot in the Presidential primary cast for Kamala?

Are you implying there was any plausible scenario where Biden would have replaced her as his VP for this election?

7 minutes ago, vikas83 said:

To get this thread back on track:

 

Death by shark.

This shark, swallow you whole. A little shaking, a little tenderizing, down you go. 

1 minute ago, we_gotta_believe said:

Are you implying there was any plausible scenario where Biden would have replaced her as his VP for this election?

No, I am simply stating that in a Presidential Preference Primary election, the VP is not on the ballot.

To think that Harris who got exactly zero delegates as a Presidential candidate would win an open primary is without evidence. 

 

And the fact she will be "chosen" by delegates released from their pledge to Biden looks on its face to not be very democratic. 

3 minutes ago, BBE said:

No, I am simply stating that in a Presidential Preference Primary election, the VP is not on the ballot.

Then you're arguing with yourself as that wasn't what I and the others were saying

16 minutes ago, VanHammersly said:

He still could've said no though.   You can bet if it were Trump, he would've gone down in flames.

Yeah and that's exactly why he's a good, honorable, introspective, decent man. It would seem that he didn't get locked into tunnel vision, he didn't let ego blind him, he listened to his advisors, friends, family, and colleagues. He reviewed the data presented to him from presumably many angles, weighed the consequences and came to a decision he felt was best for the country. We have no way of knowing for sure but hopefully that's how it actually went down and hopefully all of that comes through when he speaks about it tomorrow. It very well could be the most consequential speech he's ever given. Knowing him, he might just nail it flawlessly for what would be a hilariously ironic ending to the whole saga.

Just now, BBE said:

Was Harris on any primary ballot?  The answer is no.  There is the rub. No one explicitly voted for Harris and the Republicans if smart will use this against the "vote Harris to save democracy" talking point.

They have primaries, then they still have a convention anyway to make it official. So the process includes the opportunity to nominate a different candidate. It's an incumbent party. It's also a unique situation given the timing. If Biden were to step down from the office of Presidency now, Harris would become the President and no one voted for her specifically to be POTUS, other than knowing she'd step in as process. 

They could choose to throw together another primary, and could still nominate someone else at the convention. But they've been talking about it for weeks and there's no one else they are choosing to try and nominate. The leaders decided they're going with Harris. Voters are good with it. The democratic process will still include the convention, so if delegates wanted to complain they could, and could try and force another primary or whatever the protocol would be. That's not happening. There is no breakdown of democratic process or cheating the voters here. Democrats aren't complaining about it.

Just now, Mike030270 said:

Then you're arguing with yourself as that wasn't what I and the others were saying

No, you are saying a vote for Biden = a vote for Harris which you cannot prove because Harris was never on the ballot.  To take your line of thinking, the primary result would also bind Harris to Biden which is also not true.  Biden could have decided to have VP Butigieg in his second term and that would have been permissible.

Surprised that Bashear's not on it.  His latest round of appearances must've made them think twice.  Also, my Harris/Whitmer double down is still alive.

17 minutes ago, VanHammersly said:

But do I wish it happened before the primary?  Actually, no, because I think this is more strategically well timed to win.

this. 

the dems are fired up right now and they have the momentum, while trump is swinging at air. 

16 minutes ago, vikas83 said:

And that he also basically made them line it up for Harris.

That was one of the rumors in a wapo (or maybe politico?) report that I saw and it makes a lot of sense on the surface. An open convention could've furthered the infighting and would've been a nightmare scenario.

@vikas83
@we_gotta_believe

WGB is going to bust my balls. I've been doing Boolean searches for the last 10 minutes trying to find the videos of RFK saying it on Maher and some other podcasts I watch, but all I found was a Fox News one...I have never watch Jessie Waters or whatever his name is. I know who he, though, and I give you my word I don't turn my TV on to watch much of anything let alone cable news.

Even though ball busting is coming I wanted you both to know I wasn't pulling stuff out of the air. What they did with the primaries doesn't really register on my give a crap meter to fact check it, but he has said this in multiple interviews I've watched investigating him as a candidate. 

Skip to 1:40

 

 

1 minute ago, NOTW said:

They have primaries, then they still have a convention anyway to make it official. So the process includes the opportunity to nominate a different candidate. It's an incumbent party. It's also a unique situation given the timing. If Biden were to step down from the office of Presidency now, Harris would become the President and no one voted for her specifically to be POTUS, other than knowing she'd step in as process. 

They could choose to throw together another primary, and could still nominate someone else at the convention. But they've been talking about it for weeks and there's no one else they are choosing to try and nominate. The leaders decided they're going with Harris. Voters are good with it. The democratic process will still include the convention, so if delegates wanted to complain they could, and could try and force another primary or whatever the protocol would be. That's not happening. There is no breakdown of democratic process or cheating the voters here. Democrats aren't complaining about it.

Harris was part of a general election ticket that is different than the primary.  You are comparing apples to oranges.  On its face, the argument can be made that Harris was not democratically selected (no delegates were bound to her as a Presidential candidate because due to the rules of the primary she was not on any ballot.

2 minutes ago, BBE said:

No, you are saying a vote for Biden = a vote for Harris which you cannot prove because Harris was never on the ballot.  To take your line of thinking, the primary result would also bind Harris to Biden which is also not true.  Biden could have decided to have VP Butigieg in his second term and that would have been permissible.

You're still not getting it. You're stuck on the primaries for some reason and I was never discussing that. Like I said you're arguing with yourself for some strange reason. Have fun

3 minutes ago, BBE said:

To think that Harris who got exactly zero delegates as a Presidential candidate would win an open primary is without evidence. 

 

And the fact she will be "chosen" by delegates released from their pledge to Biden looks on its face to not be very democratic. 

That's what happens when Biden dropped out and endorsed Harris. (The Key) Those delegates could have supported Newsome Or Shapiro, right up until both of them endorsed Harris. The delegates can still do it at the convention, but as of today all of the delegates have now endorsed Harris. She is now the Presumptive Nominee. If someone else wanted to they could have entered the race but they didn't. So to argue that this should be open and go through a 2nd primary process is pretty much Moot given there is no opposition from any viable candidates. 

18 minutes ago, Diehardfan said:

Even though ball busting is coming I wanted you both to know I wasn't pulling stuff out of the air

I never doubted you heard it from RFK Jr. But please don't make it a habit of taking anything that nut job says at face value. Please. He's an epically resentful moron whose own family disowns him and has done some despicable things in the past.

1 minute ago, BBE said:

No, you are saying a vote for Biden = a vote for Harris which you cannot prove because Harris was never on the ballot.  To take your line of thinking, the primary result would also bind Harris to Biden which is also not true.  Biden could have decided to have VP Butigieg in his second term and that would have been permissible.

I don't think anyone is saying that specifically. You vote for the ticket, which includes knowledge that the VP would take over if necessary. Just like the Speaker of the House would take over as the 3rd option if necessary. The point being, voters in 2020 knew they were voting for Harris to take over during the term if needed.

So while we've said that technically, they could have a completely different candidate, they are going with that same succession as their replacement candidate in this new election. And the democratic process is safe given the convention and delegates option.