September 21, 20205 yr 1 minute ago, JohnSnowsHair said: What the ef are you talking about? I haven't said anything about a mask mandate one way or the other. Trump doesn't have the authority to put a federal mask mandate in place. But that doesn't mean the federal government is impotent; Trump could have used his clout to ask Americans to come together, to voluntarily follow the guidelines around wearing a mask and social distancing, and to empower the CDC to help lead the nation through the pandemic as best they can. Instead he politicized it from day one, calling it a hoax and manufacturing a wedge issue out of something that should have been a unifying event to get the nation all rowing in the same direction. We have seen three years of divisive, feckless leadership. To the point where you think this is somehow acceptable. You jumped in on a conversation where we were discussing whether or not Trump should have federally mandated mask wearing. Don't get upset at me for assuming you knew what we were talking about. I've told you 1000 times I think he could have done a better job encouraging mask wearing and setting the example. But I stop short of a federal mandate.
September 21, 20205 yr 10 minutes ago, JohnSnowsHair said: What the ef are you talking about? I haven't said anything about a mask mandate one way or the other. Trump doesn't have the authority to put a federal mask mandate in place. But that doesn't mean the federal government is impotent; Trump could have used his clout to ask Americans to come together, to voluntarily follow the guidelines around wearing a mask and social distancing, and to empower the CDC to help lead the nation through the pandemic as best they can. Instead he politicized it from day one, calling it a hoax and manufacturing a wedge issue out of something that should have been a unifying event to get the nation all rowing in the same direction. We have seen three years of divisive, feckless leadership. To the point where you think this is somehow acceptable. ^ This
September 21, 20205 yr 6 minutes ago, The Norseman said: You jumped in on a conversation where we were discussing whether or not Trump should have federally mandated mask wearing. Don't get upset at me for assuming you knew what we were talking about. I've told you 1000 times I think he could have done a better job encouraging mask wearing and setting the example. But I stop short of a federal mandate. It's not likely to be upheld but I'd be fine with a federal mask mandate. But you didn't even seem to agree with a state mandate either based on how defensive you got and your overall tone.
September 21, 20205 yr Just now, The Norseman said: You jumped in on a conversation where we were discussing whether or not Trump should have federally mandated mask wearing. Don't get upset at me for assuming you knew what we were talking about. I've told you 1000 times I think he could have done a better job encouraging mask wearing and setting the example. But I stop short of a federal mandate. Uh, you issued a baseless projection that if Trump had come up with a national mask mandate that Trump critics here would "be screaming at the top of your lungs that he was violating the constitution and was responsible for gross government overreach." WGB said "no, I wouldn't." To which you trotted out the persecution of Jesus Trump to project that all criticism of Trump is somehow baseless because it's so frequent (not considering that maybe he just broadly sucks). Which I called you out on. You then claimed - without evidence - that I jumped all over Trump about a "total control" line the Trump said. I don't even recall the line, but you sure as hell "knew" what I'd think about it .. Maybe if you stopped assuming that just because someone disagrees with Trump A LOT that they're not also being objective. Trump doesn't have certain authorities. So yes, I will criticize overreach. I criticized similarly many of the EO overreaches of Obama, especially late in his presidency. You seem to think that because "you think Trump should have done a better job" (on a vast many topics by the way) that you're being objective. I'm sorry, but if at this stage you're still locked in to voting for Trump, I don't see how you can argue you're being objective. You don't have to vote for Biden, but nobody's holding a gun to your head that the only other choice is Biden. It's a perfectly valid position to think both Biden and Trump suck, and that neither deserve to win. So don't vote for either.
September 21, 20205 yr 48 minutes ago, we_gotta_believe said: It's not likely to be upheld but I'd be fine with a federal mask mandate. But you didn't even seem to agree with a state mandate either based on how defensive you got and your overall tone. Quite the contrary, I don't have any problem with a state mandate at all. The state I live in has one and I wear my mask like any good citizen should. But the fed has no business mandating things like this. Nor do they have any ability to enforce it if they did.
September 21, 20205 yr Just now, The Norseman said: Quite the contrary, I don't have any problem at all with a state mandate at all. The state I live in has one and I wear my mask like any good citizen should. But the fed has no business mandating things like this. Nor do they have any ability to enforce it if they did. Fair enough. But like Jon Snow said, there are plenty of failures to point to even if you think "the Fed shouldn't have a mask mandate." He's botched this horribly and it's a big reason why he's losing.
September 21, 20205 yr 3 minutes ago, JohnSnowsHair said: Uh, you issued a baseless projection that if Trump had come up with a national mask mandate that Trump critics here would "be screaming at the top of your lungs that he was violating the constitution and was responsible for gross government overreach." WGB said "no, I wouldn't." To which you trotted out the persecution of Jesus Trump to project that all criticism of Trump is somehow baseless because it's so frequent (not considering that maybe he just broadly sucks). Which I called you out on. You then claimed - without evidence - that I jumped all over Trump about a "total control" line the Trump said. I don't even recall the line, but you sure as hell "knew" what I'd think about it .. Maybe if you stopped assuming that just because someone disagrees with Trump A LOT that they're not also being objective. Trump doesn't have certain authorities. So yes, I will criticize overreach. I criticized similarly many of the EO overreaches of Obama, especially late in his presidency. You seem to think that because "you think Trump should have done a better job" (on a vast many topics by the way) that you're being objective. I'm sorry, but if at this stage you're still locked in to voting for Trump, I don't see how you can argue you're being objective. You don't have to vote for Biden, but nobody's holding a gun to your head that the only other choice is Biden. It's a perfectly valid position to think both Biden and Trump suck, and that neither deserve to win. So don't vote for either. I hope it makes you feel better to type out these long winded retorts because I honestly have no idea what you're blathering on about. It also strikes me as odd that you project stupidity on those to have offsetting opinions but you never offer even the slightest amount of variance in your own. It must be awfully convenient for you to pretend to be 'objective' while constantly trashing one candidate and not voting for the other. What you call objectivity, I call unproductive. You and I have had the discussion countless times that I voted for Gary Johnson in 2016. At the time I disliked Trump and Hillary and didn't think it made much difference who won. This time around I dislike Trump and Biden but I think it makes a BIG difference who wins. Sit on the sidelines and pout about bad candidates all you want....but don't talk trash on the rest of us who have the balls to actually pick a side.
September 21, 20205 yr 40 minutes ago, we_gotta_believe said: Fair enough. But like Jon Snow said, there are plenty of failures to point to even if you think "the Fed shouldn't have a mask mandate." He's botched this horribly and it's a big reason why he's losing. He's botched plenty, but its mostly via his mouth and his tweets. There isn't a hell of a lot from a policy perspective that I disagree with. I don't think you gain anything with Biden when it comes to sloppy rhetoric and I don't like his policies at all.
September 21, 20205 yr Just now, The Norseman said: He's botched plenty, but its mostly his mouth and his tweets. There isn't a hell of a lot from a policy perspective that I disagree with. No, it's far more than that.
September 21, 20205 yr 24 minutes ago, The Norseman said: I hope it makes you feel better to type out these long winded retorts because I honestly have no idea what you're blathering on about. It also strikes me as odd that you project stupidity on those to have offsetting opinions but you never offer even the slightest amount of variance in your own. It must be awfully convenient for you to pretend to be 'objective' while constantly trashing one candidate and not voting for the other. What you call objectivity, I call unproductive. You and I have had the discussion countless times that I voted for Gary Johnson in 2016. At the time I disliked Trump and Hillary and didn't think it made much difference who won. This time around I dislike Trump and Biden but I think it makes a BIG difference who wins. Sit on the sidelines and pout about bad candidates all you want....but don't talk trash on the rest of us who have the balls to actually pick a side. I picked a side. It's an easy call. Biden is a sane human being. Trump is not. Biden is a guy who actually has respect of the Republicans he's worked with. Trump isn't even respected by the Republicans he's worked with, let alone Democrats. Biden is not a socialist, no matter how many times it's repeated. Trump is an economic illiterate stuck in a protectionist populist mindset that was buried with good reason decades ago. I don't think everybody who supports Trump is an idiot. Some are, but there's plenty of stupidity to go around. See: AOC, MMT, etc. But plenty of the reasons people toss out here for supporting Trump ARE incredibly stupid, and for those who have closed their minds to anything except Biden is a socialist (he's not) and that Trump is somehow "for us" (he's not) I don't have much patience. And no I'm not saying you fall into one or both of those categories. But while you espouse more opinions that I can agree with than Trump does, I still cannot understand the needless and baseless projection.
September 21, 20205 yr Just now, we_gotta_believe said: No, it's far more than that. We'll have to agree to disagree. If Biden gets in I'm sure you'll be much happier with his presidential demeanor and the direction he takes the country.
September 21, 20205 yr Just now, The Norseman said: We'll have to agree to disagree. If Biden gets in I'm sure you'll be much happier with his presidential demeanor and the direction he takes the country. Unfortunately, the damage of this pandemic due to our abysmal response is already done. Credibility in the CDC ruined, faith in the FDA undermined, economic recovery set back, and lives forever lost. But yes, at least Biden isn't an anti-science moron who puts his personal interests of re-election above those of the nation during a time of unprecedented crisis.
September 21, 20205 yr 2 minutes ago, we_gotta_believe said: Unfortunately, the damage of this pandemic due to our abysmal response is already done. Credibility in the CDC ruined, faith in the FDA undermined, economic recovery set back, and lives forever lost. But yes, at least Biden isn't an anti-science moron who puts his personal interests of re-election above those of the nation during a time of unprecedented crisis. This is my biggest issue. The way in which Trump is conducting the presidency and the cues that the rest of the party (and its base) are taking from it are like a cancer eating the nation from within. They're undermining the institutions that people need to have trust and faith in. Nobody should expect them to be perfect, but they do need to be trusted to be advocating for the nation, and Trump is turning them into political fiefdoms. Leadership matters. Trump is not a leader; he's a divider. I don't know if Biden is, but he sure as hell is closer to it than Trump is.
September 21, 20205 yr 10 minutes ago, JohnSnowsHair said: I picked a side. It's an easy call. Biden is a sane human being. Trump is not. Biden is a guy who actually has respect of the Republicans he's worked with. Trump isn't even respected by the Republicans he's worked with, let alone Democrats. Biden is not a socialist, no matter how many times it's repeated. Trump is an economic illiterate stuck in a protectionist populist mindset that was buried with good reason decades ago. I don't think everybody who supports Trump is an idiot. Some are, but there's plenty of stupidity to go around. See: AOC, MMT, etc. But plenty of the reasons people toss out here for supporting Trump ARE incredibly stupid, and for those who have closed their minds to anything except Biden is a socialist (he's not) and that Trump is somehow "for us" (he's not) I don't have much patience. And no I'm not saying you fall into one or both of those categories. But while you espouse more opinions that I can agree with than Trump does, I still cannot understand the needless and baseless projection. I don't think Biden is a socialist and I've never said that. I think he is MORE socialist than Trump but that doesn't make him some out of control Marxist. I do think that he likes big, expensive federal programs that I fundamentally disagree with. I think he will intentionally ruin the progress that we have made in terms of energy independence and I believe that will greatly hurt our economy. I also think is a purely incapable man who has very little to show for his near half decade in politics. I think you have an opinion about Trump that you are entitled to. Just as I am entitled to mine. Your opinion makes you biased against Trump and mine makes me biased towards him. I don't like the man but I do like the direction. You have an opinion just like everyone else...but it doesn't make you more right.
September 22, 20205 yr 9 minutes ago, The Norseman said: I don't think Biden is a socialist and I've never said that. I think he is MORE socialist than Trump but that doesn't make him some out of control Marxist. I do think that he likes big, expensive federal programs that I fundamentally disagree with. I think he will intentionally ruin the progress that we have made in terms of energy independence and I believe that will greatly hurt our economy. I also think is a purely incapable man who has very little to show for his near half decade in politics. I think you have an opinion about Trump that you are entitled to. Just as I am entitled to mine. Your opinion makes you biased against Trump and mine makes me biased towards him. I don't like the man but I do like the direction. You have an opinion just like everyone else I do not like big federal programs, by and large. There are some that I believe are necessary for a nation of our size, complexity, and place in the world economically. But, for example, I would have reformed social security over a decade ago in ways that would piss off the left. It would be means tested, the eligibility ages would have been raised, and hell I might have considered changing it so that individuals could invest some portion of it in a private retirement account within some set of parameters (my hesitation there is less about privatization than about the impact to the market some percentage of payroll taxes collected every year suddenly being introduced, and the gravy train of grifters it would create). This goes beyond policy though. This is what is difficult to communicate, and for people to seem to want to understand. Trump is an existential threat to the nation. He is undoing the nation from within. Policy differences is a luxury for periods when we have two sane candidates who simply come about solving problems with different approaches. This isn't about Trump's policies. Most I disagree with, some are fine, but most I can at least live with. But his approach to all things here is to divide and create chaos, and to sow distrust in institutions that he sees as having no value for him right now. But institutions like the CDC, DoJ, and yes even the Supreme Court exist and have power solely because people believe in them, and trust them. And he is cheaply spending all of the faith and trust that they have built up over time for some perceived short-term gain for him alone. He does not act in the best interests of the nation short or long term. He acts in the best interests of himself today and doesn't concern himself with the long term. He is an irresponsible steward of a great and powerful nation. And that is untenable.
September 22, 20205 yr 7 minutes ago, JohnSnowsHair said: I do not like big federal programs, by and large. There are some that I believe are necessary for a nation of our size, complexity, and place in the world economically. But, for example, I would have reformed social security over a decade ago in ways that would piss off the left. It would be means tested, the eligibility ages would have been raised, and hell I might have considered changing it so that individuals could invest some portion of it in a private retirement account within some set of parameters (my hesitation there is less about privatization than about the impact to the market some percentage of payroll taxes collected every year suddenly being introduced, and the gravy train of grifters it would create). This goes beyond policy though. This is what is difficult to communicate, and for people to seem to want to understand. Trump is an existential threat to the nation. He is undoing the nation from within. Policy differences is a luxury for periods when we have two sane candidates who simply come about solving problems with different approaches. This isn't about Trump's policies. Most I disagree with, some are fine, but most I can at least live with. But his approach to all things here is to divide and create chaos, and to sow distrust in institutions that he sees as having no value for him right now. But institutions like the CDC, DoJ, and yes even the Supreme Court exist and have power solely because people believe in them, and trust them. And he is cheaply spending all of the faith and trust that they have built up over time for some perceived short-term gain for him alone. He does not act in the best interests of the nation short or long term. He acts in the best interests of himself today and doesn't concern himself with the long term. He is an irresponsible steward of a great and powerful nation. And that is untenable. ^ This MFer spittin
September 22, 20205 yr 23 minutes ago, JohnSnowsHair said: I do not like big federal programs, by and large. There are some that I believe are necessary for a nation of our size, complexity, and place in the world economically. But, for example, I would have reformed social security over a decade ago in ways that would piss off the left. It would be means tested, the eligibility ages would have been raised, and hell I might have considered changing it so that individuals could invest some portion of it in a private retirement account within some set of parameters (my hesitation there is less about privatization than about the impact to the market some percentage of payroll taxes collected every year suddenly being introduced, and the gravy train of grifters it would create). This goes beyond policy though. This is what is difficult to communicate, and for people to seem to want to understand. Trump is an existential threat to the nation. He is undoing the nation from within. Policy differences is a luxury for periods when we have two sane candidates who simply come about solving problems with different approaches. This isn't about Trump's policies. Most I disagree with, some are fine, but most I can at least live with. But his approach to all things here is to divide and create chaos, and to sow distrust in institutions that he sees as having no value for him right now. But institutions like the CDC, DoJ, and yes even the Supreme Court exist and have power solely because people believe in them, and trust them. And he is cheaply spending all of the faith and trust that they have built up over time for some perceived short-term gain for him alone. He does not act in the best interests of the nation short or long term. He acts in the best interests of himself today and doesn't concern himself with the long term. He is an irresponsible steward of a great and powerful nation. And that is untenable. And off the rails you go. Your hatred of the man clearly clouds your ability to have any sort of meaningful discussion about his policies. Nothing you state above is fact, it's all heavily biased opinion. I don't agree with any of the statements bolded above and I've debated them with you on multiple occasions. At least now we have established that you support Biden. If he get's in and starts bungling policy like he has his basement press conferences I'll remember that you officially pledged your support to him.
September 22, 20205 yr 23 minutes ago, The Norseman said: And off the rails you go. Your hatred of the man clearly clouds your ability to have any sort of meaningful discussion about his policies. Nothing you state above is fact, it's all heavily biased opinion. I don't agree with any of the statements bolded above and I've debated them with you on multiple occasions. At least now we have established that you support Biden. If he get's in and starts bungling policy like he has his basement press conferences I'll remember that you officially pledged your support to him. Just as we will remember your support of the worst president of our lifetimes.
September 22, 20205 yr 2 minutes ago, we_gotta_believe said: Just as we will remember your support of the worst president of our lifetimes. You're crazy. No way he was an Obama supporter.
September 22, 20205 yr 28 minutes ago, The Norseman said: And off the rails you go. Your hatred of the man clearly clouds your ability to have any sort of meaningful discussion about his policies. Nothing you state above is fact, it's all heavily biased opinion. I don't agree with any of the statements bolded above and I've debated them with you on multiple occasions. At least now we have established that you support Biden. If he get's in and starts bungling policy like he has his basement press conferences I'll remember that you officially pledged your support to him. Have you not seen him use wedge issues on a daily basis to divide the nation? I'm sorry dude, if you don't see it I can't convince you of it. The evidence is overwhelming.
September 22, 20205 yr Just now, lynched1 said: You're crazy. No way he was an Obama supporter. Obama was mediocre. Perhaps slightly above average. Trump is quite easily the worst president of the modern era. History will not be kind. Honestly, if we're lucky, history won't mention him hardly at all.
September 22, 20205 yr 2 minutes ago, we_gotta_believe said: Just as we will remember your support of the worst president of our lifetimes. You haven't been around for a while. He's a proud member of the "Not a Trump supporter but..." crew.
September 22, 20205 yr Just now, JohnSnowsHair said: Obama was mediocre. Perhaps slightly above average. Trump is quite easily the worst president of the modern era. History will not be kind. Honestly, if we're lucky, history won't mention him hardly at all. 1 minute ago, JohnSnowsHair said: I'm sorry dude, if you don't see it I can't convince you of it. The evidence is overwhelming. Saves on typing. 😉
September 22, 20205 yr 1 hour ago, JohnSnowsHair said: . They're undermining the institutions that people need to have trust and faith in. Nobody should expect them to be perfect, but they do need to be trusted to be advocating for the nation, and Trump is turning them into political fiefdoms. Leadership matters. Trump is not a leader; he's a divider. I don't know if Biden is, but he sure as hell is closer to it than Trump is. False people need to have trust and faith in themselves, not the state or its instituions
September 22, 20205 yr 43 minutes ago, JohnSnowsHair said: Have you not seen him use wedge issues on a daily basis to divide the nation? I'm sorry dude, if you don't see it I can't convince you of it. The evidence is overwhelming. Its not like he says everyone is racist....
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