The reality is the Eagles have to fire Howie, Doug, and keep Wentz

[mjkvol]

5 hours ago, UK_EaglesFan89 said:

So all is OK with this team? Carson is playing well and things are just ticking along nicely for this team?

Did you read my post?        I said nothing even remotely suggesting that all was well.        My point is that I would fire the coach before trying to coach from the owner's box - teams with owners that meddle with the roster and game plan are never successful.         Never.             It is a classic sign of an organization that is broken or on the verge of being broken.

This season is lost.          If Lurie wants changes on the field, then fire Pederson now and instruct the interim coach to make those changes.       He should actually fire Roseman and Pederson and begin the preliminary search for a GM right now while the team plays out the string.          Make it clear to the players that they are playing for jobs, you'll find out in a hurry who you'll want to dump at season's end.

I can't imagine Lurie would go this route.        When he hired Pederson and started with the 'emotional intelligence' and 'collaborative'  decision making garbage, I sensed doom, but we somehow got a Super Bowl out of it in a perfect storm season.          What's happening now is the reality I expected at that time, and if he doesn't act decisively this will get much worse.            But telling the coach who to play isn't something that will reap anything positive.

 

[mjkvol]

On 12/2/2020 at 5:52 AM, Talkingbirds said:

My apologies if this was already discussed, but all during the Penn State- Michigan game they talked about possibility of Harbaugh leaving college football.  Should Eagles be a player if he does ?

Absolutely not.

[Dweedlebug]

9 minutes ago, mjkvol said:

He should actually fire Roseman and Pederson and begin the preliminary search for a GM right now while the team plays out the string. 

 

He should fire the receivers coach and the QB coach as well while he's at it.

[EagleJoe8]

36 minutes ago, mjkvol said:

Did you read my post?        I said nothing even remotely suggesting that all was well.        My point is that I would fire the coach before trying to coach from the owner's box - teams with owners that meddle with the roster and game plan are never successful.         Never.             It is a classic sign of an organization that is broken or on the verge of being broken.

This season is lost.          If Lurie wants changes on the field, then fire Pederson now and instruct the interim coach to make those changes.       He should actually fire Roseman and Pederson and begin the preliminary search for a GM right now while the team plays out the string.          Make it clear to the players that they are playing for jobs, you'll find out in a hurry who you'll want to dump at season's end.

I can't imagine Lurie would go this route.        When he hired Pederson and started with the 'emotional intelligence' and 'collaborative'  decision making garbage, I sensed doom, but we somehow got a Super Bowl out of it in a perfect storm season.          What's happening now is the reality I expected at that time, and if he doesn't act decisively this will get much worse.            But telling the coach who to play isn't something that will reap anything positive.

 

Exactly. In a vacuum, I have no issues with the likes of Groh and Walch being removed, but I am a believer the HC should have full autonomy over his staff, and over playing time decisions. If they can’t trust Doug to make those decisions, find a coach you can trust and enough with the meddling. Lurie may not be, and never was a perfect owner, but by and large, his old approach of hiring people and allowing them to succeed or fail on their own accord was always a respectable approach. We don’t need Jerry Jones lite. 

[phil77]

If Wentz is benched and they go with Hurts I want Doug to run the exact same offense he is running now not change it to fit what Hurts does well.  I want it to be the same crappy RUN/PASS ratio.  The same long developing route combinations.  Same crappy play calling combinations.  The problem is that isn't the reality if they make a QB change to make a QB change then Doug will change what he does also just like with Foles. 

I am in the opinion if Wentz is going to be the franchise starter next year then you can't bench him at all this year.  You have to let him try to work it out on the field with his teammates.  If they bench him during the team struggles then he will lose the locker room more than he already has. 

[UK_EaglesFan89]

3 hours ago, phil77 said:

The problem is that isn't the reality if they make a QB change to make a QB change then Doug will change what he does also just like with Foles. 

Or... The scheme isn't set up for a QB like Wentz and is better tailored to a QB like Foles. Now that in itself is an issue because Hurts is not a Foles type QB and also Doug should tailor his offense more to suit his QB.

[Hawkeye]

1 hour ago, UK_EaglesFan89 said:

Or... The scheme isn't set up for a QB like Wentz and is better tailored to a QB like Foles. Now that in itself is an issue because Hurts is not a Foles type QB and also Doug should tailor his offense more to suit his QB.

Doug seems completely lost.  He's inexplicably turned Wentz into a pocket passer - behind the worst offensive line in the league - rather than what he was early on: a dangerous, mobile quarterback who played better moving laterally. 

That's not working, so of course they turn to their also -inexplicable 2nd round draft baby who would be a Heisman Trophy winner if not for Joe Burrow, right?  Nope.  A few gimmick plays aside, he's wearing a mask on the sideline.

And speaking of Joe Burrow...Doug's gonna look great in Cincinnati next year.  

[beto_eagles]

On 12/2/2020 at 4:52 AM, ManchesterEagle said:

Agreed completely with this approach. Wentz needs to sit for a game or two. 

I think in reality all three will stay for at least another year.

1) Wentz - playing really badly at the moment, but his contract means we won’t be able to cut ties until after next year realistically. Hopefully he rebounds before then, so we can at least get something in a trade.

2) Doug. Doug should stay but absolutely needs an OC.

3) Howie. I’m no Howie fan boy and some of his moves have infuriated me. I wouldn’t be sad to see him go. But he is nowhere as bad as people on this board/the media are making out. He was integral to putting together that Super Bowl team and he made some good draft picks at times (he is below average at drafting)

As I said, wouldn’t be sad to see him go, but I doubt it happens. What if Hurts turns into a franchise QB next year?

couldn't agree more

[eaglegenius]

On 12/2/2020 at 4:27 AM, PoconoDon said:

I'll be shocked if it's anything other than what we already know. the O-line is a sieve and can't protect long enough on most plays. The WR's can't get open quickly on most plays. the QB won't be accurate because of letting it go too soon in a panic due to pressure or holding it too long waiting for someone to come open. If the QB holds it too long, he'll be sacked and hit a bunch.

It'll look the same as it has, or worse, no matter who is back there. That's my expectation.

Surprisingly the O line is rated 10th in the NFL so maybe we should stop blaming them.

Keeping Wentz on the field now is like driving a Ferrari with a blown cylinder because it cost you a fortune,
so you don't want to put it in the shop and drive the Toyota or the Lexus you recently bought.

When a machine develops a mystery problem you check out the components one by one until you isolate the problem.
The Eagles FO seems unable to grasp this concept. They just want to keep on cranking the machine waiting for it to
miraculously fix itself.

So at this rate they'll end this season still scratching their heads, and will start next season none the wiser.

[Perforator]

39 minutes ago, eaglegenius said:

Surprisingly the O line is rated 10th in the NFL so maybe we should stop blaming them.

 

You mean the offensive line that has 10 different starting lineups in 11 games? The offensive line that leads the league in sacks allowed and pressures?

Have you watched any games or just looked up the PFF ranking?

 

[Dwide Schrude]

12 hours ago, stinkfist said:

LOL, "I know some people that interact with him" is enough. I'm not sure what you are looking for. Would you like employee names so they can be fired for their opinions? 🤣

For all you know, it's Jim the Porcupine. 

I’m kidding man 🤣

[mjkvol]

7 hours ago, EagleJoe8 said:

Exactly. In a vacuum, I have no issues with the likes of Groh and Walch being removed, but I am a believer the HC should have full autonomy over his staff, and over playing time decisions. If they can’t trust Doug to make those decisions, find a coach you can trust and enough with the meddling. Lurie may not be, and never was a perfect owner, but by and large, his old approach of hiring people and allowing them to succeed or fail on their own accord was always a respectable approach. We don’t need Jerry Jones lite. 

It's interesting how Lurie went from 'hands off to a fault' during the endless Reid reign into 'hands on to a fault' now.          I think the Super Bowl fooled him into believing that this new age collaborative garbage really was the way to go.         

Totally cleaning house would be something he has never done before, and bringing in a real GM to run the football operation would mean jettisoning his precious system of football decision making - two reasons that I'm not optimistic he will do what needs to be done if this mess ever has a chance of being fixed.

[EagleJoe8]

37 minutes ago, mjkvol said:

It's interesting how Lurie went from 'hands off to a fault' during the endless Reid reign into 'hands on to a fault' now.          I think the Super Bowl fooled him into believing that this collaborative garbage really was the way to go.         

Totally cleaning house would be something he has never done before, and bringing in a real GM to run the football operation would mean jettisoning his precious system of football decision making - two reasons that I'm not optimistic he will do what needs to be done if this mess ever has a chance of being fixed.

To be fair, I don’t think collaboration is the issue. At least not in and of itself. Perhaps the way they’re doing it, or more specifically, the people we have doing it. I think to some degree there has to be collaboration. Not necessarily to the degree of coaches/coordinators saying we need to draft Bob Smith from Blanko Tech or we need to sign Haywood Jablowme in free agency, but there should be communication to the extent of HCs and coordinators communicating specific measurables they want or skill sets they want in a player for the systems they plan to run. 
 

One thing we definitely need, assuming we keep Doug, is an assigned coordinator. Preferably one who calls plays. Whatever you want to call what we have going on now is a complete disaster. 

[Swimm]

1 hour ago, Perforator said:

You mean the offensive line that has 10 different starting lineups in 11 games? The offensive line that leads the league in sacks allowed and pressures?

Have you watched any games or just looked up the PFF ranking?

 

 

Carson holds on the ball too long. Alot of sacks are because of that. Someone posted the statistic that alot of the sacks are after 4 seconds in the pocket. 

[JetroLot]

1 hour ago, Dwide Schrude said:

I’m kidding man 🤣

I thought you were which is why I did the Jim the Porcupine, but you never know on here. 😂

[mjkvol]

3 hours ago, EagleJoe8 said:

To be fair, I don’t think collaboration is the issue. At least not in and of itself. Perhaps the way they’re doing it, or more specifically, the people we have doing it. I think to some degree there has to be collaboration. Not necessarily to the degree of coaches/coordinators saying we need to draft Bob Smith from Blanko Tech or we need to sign Haywood Jablowme in free agency, but there should be communication to the extent of HCs and coordinators communicating specific measurables they want or skill sets they want in a player for the systems they plan to run. 
 

One thing we definitely need, assuming we keep Doug, is an assigned coordinator. Preferably one who calls plays. Whatever you want to call what we have going on now is a complete disaster. 

Disagree completely - you hire a coach and let him run the team.         An 'assigned coordinator'?         You can't possibly believe a setup like that is a real solution for a franchise looking to win.          If you think Pederson can do the job, let him do it.         If not, goodbye and move on.

Regarding decision making, you absolutely want the organic collaboration between a GM, the scouts, and the coaches with regard to picks and signings, but there can only be one man in charge of the decision, and the owner shouldn't be involved other than to okay financial deals.         I'm talking about the 'decision by committee' setup that we have here now, which has always been a disaster waiting to happen.

Hire a GM to run the operation, allow him to hire a coach who he can work with and whose philosophy matches his own, hire scouts who understand the scheme and the type of players who will fit, and let them all do their jobs.         If Lurie takes the band aid approach and keeps anyone with 'conditions' attached, it will simply be counting the days until another change will be made.         

[Ace Nova]

11 hours ago, phil77 said:

If Wentz is benched and they go with Hurts I want Doug to run the exact same offense he is running now not change it to fit what Hurts does well.  I want it to be the same crappy RUN/PASS ratio.  The same long developing route combinations.  Same crappy play calling combinations.  The problem is that isn't the reality if they make a QB change to make a QB change then Doug will change what he does also just like with Foles. 

I am in the opinion if Wentz is going to be the franchise starter next year then you can't bench him at all this year.  You have to let him try to work it out on the field with his teammates.  If they bench him during the team struggles then he will lose the locker room more than he already has. 

What do Ron Jaworski, Randall Cunningham, Donovon McNabb, Nick Foles and Michael Vick all have in common?

They were all starters/franchise quarterbacks at some point who were benched for performance reasons. 

Every single one of them came back and started for the Eagles and had success....one won us the Super Bowl and McNabb went on to an NFCCG.

The idea that a franchise QB "can't be benched or else" is not based in reality.  As a matter of fact, it's happened with just about every starter/franchise QB the Eagles have had over the past 30 years! 

 

[PoconoDon]

9 hours ago, eaglegenius said:

Surprisingly the O line is rated 10th in the NFL so maybe we should stop blaming them.

Keeping Wentz on the field now is like driving a Ferrari with a blown cylinder because it cost you a fortune,
so you don't want to put it in the shop and drive the Toyota or the Lexus you recently bought.

When a machine develops a mystery problem you check out the components one by one until you isolate the problem.
The Eagles FO seems unable to grasp this concept. They just want to keep on cranking the machine waiting for it to
miraculously fix itself.

So at this rate they'll end this season still scratching their heads, and will start next season none the wiser.

I disagree completely with your premise that there is only one problem to isolate and that it's Wentz. 

He is certainly part of it, but the rest of the Offense is broken as well. I don't put much stock in the PFF grades. We all can see the weekly struggles of the O-line and receivers for ourselves. Those issues are real.

Still, if you want to put the Ferrari in the garage, go ahead, then roll out the VW Bug and see what happens. i suspect little will change.

[Alphagrand]

On 12/2/2020 at 9:24 AM, Madriver said:

The more I think about the Clowney hit the more I'm inclined to think that is at the root of Wentz' problems.

They rushed him back too soon and he is too macho or too religious to admit he has a problem. He needs to get healthy and the start of that is to sit him down.

There is almost zero chance of that.  NFL teams do baseline testing as part of the medical examinations each year in training camp.  Wentz would have undergone neurological and cognitive testing prior to this season and those results would have been compared against the baseline test.

[UK_EaglesFan89]

58 minutes ago, Alphagrand said:

There is almost zero chance of that.  NFL teams do baseline testing as part of the medical examinations each year in training camp.  Wentz would have undergone neurological and cognitive testing prior to this season and those results would have been compared against the baseline test.

Physically he may be fine, everything may check out on the scans etc. But maybe he's been affected mentally by it? Not medically but psychologically?

[EagleJoe8]

7 hours ago, mjkvol said:

Disagree completely - you hire a coach and let him run the team.         An 'assigned coordinator'?         You can't possibly believe a setup like that is a real solution for a franchise looking to win.          If you think Pederson can do the job, let him do it.         If not, goodbye and move on.

Regarding decision making, you absolutely want the organic collaboration between a GM, the scouts, and the coaches with regard to picks and signings, but there can only be one man in charge of the decision, and the owner shouldn't be involved other than to okay financial deals.         I'm talking about the 'decision by committee' setup that we have here now, which has always been a disaster waiting to happen.

Hire a GM to run the operation, allow him to hire a coach who he can work with and whose philosophy matches his own, hire scouts who understand the scheme and the type of players who will fit, and let them all do their jobs.         If Lurie takes the band aid approach and keeps anyone with 'conditions' attached, it will simply be counting the days until another change will be made.         

As for the "assigned coordinator”, I was talking about someone who is an actual offensive coordinator by title, and preferably responsibility as well. Not this 47 coach set up we have now. Just to clarify that. 
 

As for the rest, I’m not looking for Doug to "do the job”.  I’m talking about communicating to the GM types of attributes he’d like to have, not specific names. I think it would be crazy to think any franchise doesn’t have at least that. Hell, if not, why even have the HC in the war room, or as part of an introductory press conference?

[Cochis_Calhoun]

12 hours ago, Perforator said:

You mean the offensive line that has 10 different starting lineups in 11 games? The offensive line that leads the league in sacks allowed and pressures?

Have you watched any games or just looked up the PFF ranking?

 

If it were just the PFF rankings I'd agree with you, but the PFF rankings allied to the fact that 75% of the sacks are over 4 seconds post snap then I'd be inclined to seriously consider the O Line isn't as bad as we might like to believe.

Don't get me wrong, you could build a convincing reel of pathetic O Line play, hell you could build a long one just for Peters, but in any sport it's the great plays and the howlers that stand out and the nature of O Line is that highlight reel o line plays are rare as hens teeth, but every man and his dog can spot a tackle or guard being beaten like they aren't there or being used to knock over their own quarter back and that can skew assessment of how a unit is playing.

[Perforator]

1 hour ago, Cochis_Calhoun said:

If it were just the PFF rankings I'd agree with you, but the PFF rankings allied to the fact that 75% of the sacks are over 4 seconds post snap then I'd be inclined to seriously consider the O Line isn't as bad as we might like to believe.

Don't get me wrong, you could build a convincing reel of pathetic O Line play, hell you could build a long one just for Peters, but in any sport it's the great plays and the howlers that stand out and the nature of O Line is that highlight reel o line plays are rare as hens teeth, but every man and his dog can spot a tackle or guard being beaten like they aren't there or being used to knock over their own quarter back and that can skew assessment of how a unit is playing.

The offensive line has to work together, how are you going to build that cohesiveness when there is someone different next to you each game? Heck, the 10 out of 11 doesn't count in game changes. How many times has Lane and Jason gone out during the game causing another shuffle.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not absolving Carson. He's missing open receivers, inaccurate and hesitant. It's like Ike says, he's got the yips. He's seeing ghosts. It's sort of like PTSD. I just don't see how anyone could be successful with the state the offensive is in.

I think at this point they should sit Carson. We're not going anywhere. The only thing he's going to do is get killed behind this line. Jalen is younger more athletic. Let him play the last 5 games and take the lumps. At least it will give the next coach/GM a look so they can decide who to play next year.

 

[[TSM]_PimpDaddyPain]

On 12/2/2020 at 12:56 PM, EricAllenPick6 said:

Absolutely this.  I don't hear any talk about this from the media, but it makes a lot of sense.  He has fallen off at a historic rate.  It's obvious that the concussion affected his decision making and possibly vision as well.  The good news is that it's possible Carson can bounce back, but he needs time.  He also needs somebody that is a concussion specialist to do a more in depth study with him.  

Sadly I think there is not much talk about it from players, coaches, or even the media because highlighting that Wentz took a dirty hit that didn't come with a penalty and fine is criticizing the referees.  That is frowned upon and can come with fines and cease desist orders on its own.  So basically they have to just sit there quietly and get bent over by the officials. 

[MagicMoment]

On 12/2/2020 at 4:52 AM, Talkingbirds said:

My apologies if this was already discussed, but all during the Penn State- Michigan game they talked about possibility of Harbaugh leaving college football.  Should Eagles be a player if he does ?

I, for one, would be all for it.