Has Slay been the CB1 the Eagles wanted in 2020?

[Ace Nova]

22 hours ago, eagle45 said:

 

Slay plus our secondary are not nearly as good as 5 merely above average DBs who were less expensive.  
 

 

Obviously this is false.  We've basically had 5 "above average/average" DB's for the past 3+ years prior to Slay and this year's secondary (when healthy) was clearly better than past years...not really debatable, tbh. 

[eagle45]

34 minutes ago, Ace Nova said:

Obviously this is false.  We've basically had 5 "above average/average" DB's for the past 3+ years prior to Slay and this year's secondary (when healthy) was clearly better than past years...not really debatable, tbh. 

Who exactly are our 5 above average DBs?

If Slay is a stud and our pass defense is average or worse...news flash...the other 4 aren’t average.

[Ace Nova]

5 minutes ago, eagle45 said:

Who exactly are our 5 above average DBs?

If Slay is a stud and our pass defense is average or worse...news flash...the other 4 aren’t average.

Our pass defense has been decent with a fully healthy secondary this season.  Better than past years. 

And yes, McCleod, Mills, LeBlanc are at least average or better.  Robey-Coleman, Maddox and Epps are also fine when used properly. 

You're dealing with recency bias since they've basically been injured for the last several games and the secondary has looked horrendous... but they've been solid for the majority of the season when healthy. 

[CaliEagle]

Slay  isn't a shut down CB, but there aren't many now.  I think Slay had a lower leg injury for several weeks and tried to play through it and that affected his level of play. I think he will be better if we add some more pieces around him. But, he probably only has a couple of more decent seasons left at his age.  Most CBs decline pretty sharply after 30.

[eagle45]

1 hour ago, Ace Nova said:

Our pass defense has been decent with a fully healthy secondary this season.  Better than past years. 

And yes, McCleod, Mills, LeBlanc are at least average or better.  Robey-Coleman, Maddox and Epps are also fine when used properly. 

You're dealing with recency bias since they've basically been injured for the last several games and the secondary has looked horrendous... but they've been solid for the majority of the season when healthy. 

I’m not arguing that our secondary sucks.  I’m arguing that one exceptional player with 4 other OK guys does not constitute a good investment.
 

If it was, the results would be better than they are.   

[Ace Nova]

3 minutes ago, eagle45 said:

I’m not arguing that our secondary sucks.  I’m arguing that one exceptional player with 4 other OK guys does not constitute a good investment.
 

If it was, the results would be better than they are.   

Nah.  Slay is actually relatively inexpensive, considering he's likely a top 5 CB in the NFL.  His skill set, like the article states, allows Schwartz an enormous amount of flexibility in his his defensive scheming.

If we acquire a solid #2 CB in this off-season, via draft or FA, next season will likely be the best secondary this team has ever had under Schwartz. 

 

[eagle45]

3 minutes ago, Ace Nova said:

Nah.  Slay is actually relatively inexpensive, considering he's likely a top 5 CB in the NFL.  His skill set, like the article states, allows Schwartz an enormous amount of flexibility in his his defensive scheming.

If we acquire a solid #2 CB in this off-season, via draft or FA, next season will likely be the best secondary this team has ever had under Schwartz. 

 

And yet our secondary with Slay is worse against the pass than it was in the last 3 years.  
 

By your own argument...because of the other guys around him.

[CaliEagle]

1 minute ago, eagle45 said:

And yet our secondary with Slay is worse against the pass than it was in the last 3 years.  
 

By your own argument...because of the other guys around him.

Robey-Coleman has been a massive disappointment.  Maddox has regressed majorly, too. Both of those guys are replaceable.   Mills isn't an answer as a CB, too. We could use at least 2 new CBs.

[Ace Nova]

6 minutes ago, eagle45 said:

And yet our secondary with Slay is worse against the pass than it was in the last 3 years.  
 

By your own argument...because of the other guys around him.

It's not. 

This year's secondary has been better than past 2 years' secondary...and it will be that much better with a solid #2.  The 2017 secondary was maybe as good as this past year's..and that was mostly due to exceptional play by Patrick Robinson covering the slot. 

And had this year's secondary been 100% healthy all year, I would still take this year's secondary over 2017.  Slay has been hurt for at least 4+ games this year...so we haven't even seen what this secondary looks like when 100% healthy for most of the season. 

[eagle45]

2 minutes ago, Ace Nova said:

It's not. 

This year's secondary has been better than past 2 years' secondary...and it will be that much better with a solid #2.  The 2017 secondary was maybe as good as this past year's..and that was mostly due to exceptional play by Patrick Robinson covering the slot. 

And had this year's secondary been 100% healthy all year, I would still take this year's secondary over 2017.  Slay has been hurt for at least 4+ games this year...so we haven't even seen what this secondary looks like when 100% healthy for most of the season. 

QB rating against the Eagles in 2017: 79.5

QB rating against the Eagles in 2019: 90.8

QB rating against the Eagles in 2020: 104.2

Let it go.

 

[Ace Nova]

Just now, eagle45 said:

QB rating against the Eagles in 2019: 90.8

QB rating against the Eagles in 2020: 104.2

Let it go.

 

You let it go.  I couldn't care less about "QB rating" stats when 3/4 of the secondary this year has been hurt for a good portion of the season.

This year's secondary (when 100% healthy)  is levels above 2019 and it's not even close.  They kept this team in games they had no business being in for most of the season when healthy.

It was literally the other way around last season. 

[eagle45]

10 minutes ago, Ace Nova said:

You let it go.  I couldn't care less about "QB rating" stats when 3/4 of the secondary this year has been hurt for a good portion of the season.

This year's secondary (when 100% healthy)  is levels above 2019 and it's not even close.  They kept this team in games they had no business being in for most of the season when healthy.

It was literally the other way around last season. 

Ok ignore concrete results and blame nagging injuries.  

 3/4?  100% of the nfl picks up some level of injury.  McLeod played 13 games this year (Lou Gehrig by Eagle standards), Mills hasn’t missed time, Slay missed one game, and the secondary gets better when Maddox gets hurt.  Sounds like one of the healthier units on this team to me.  

But let’s blame the fact that the team is an order of magnitude worse against the pass on nonspecific injuries.

Even if that’s the case, it proves my point.  A top 5 cb accomplished nothing for the bottom line.  They got worse on Slay’s watch.  They’d have been better off with a uniform collection of decent guys that don’t suck (and are healthy), not one expensive "top 5” cb and a bunch of liabilities or injuries.

[Ace Nova]

Just now, eagle45 said:

Ok ignore concrete results and blame nagging injuries.  

 3/4?  100% of the nfl picks up some level of injury.  McLeod played 13 games this year, Mills hasn’t missed time, Slay missed one game, and the secondary gets better when Maddox gets hurt.  Sounds like one of the healthier units on this team to me.  

But let’s blame the fact that the team is an order of magnitude worse against the pass on nonspecific injuries.

Even if that’s the case, it proves my point.  A top 5 cb accomplished nothing for the bottom line.  They got worse on Slay’s watch.  They’d have been better off with a uniform collection of decent guys that don’t suck, not one expensive "top 5” cb and a bunch of liabilities.

How much do you want to bet that this will be the best secondary in the last 5+ years if they add 1 solid #2 CB next season? And no, they haven't "gotten worse" under Slay's watch.  Take your eyes off the stat sheet and watch some games. 

[eagle45]

Just now, Ace Nova said:

How much do you want to bet that this will be the best secondary in the last 5+ years if they add 1 solid #2 CB next season? And no, they haven't "gotten worse" under Slay's watch.  Take your eyes off the stat sheet and watch some games. 

I am not interested in ifs

Fact: the Eagles are worse at defending the pass this year than last.  Or the year before that.  Or the year before that.

Fact: they made a large investment in Slay that did not prevent that.

Blame injuries.  Blame the pass rush.  Blame our offense.   Blame 3/4 of the guys around Slay.  Blame Slay.  I really don’t care.  Either way, it’s not much of an endorsement for over-investment in one "shut down” CB.

[Ace Nova]

1 minute ago, eagle45 said:

I am not interested in ifs

Fact: the Eagles are worse at defending the pass this year than last.  Or the year before that.  Or the year before that.

Fact: they made a large investment in Slay that did not prevent that.

Blame injuries.  Blame the pass rush.  Blame our offense.   Blame 3/4 of the guys around Slay.  Blame Slay.  I really don’t care.  Either way, it’s not much of an endorsement for over-investment in one "shut down” CB.

I don't feel like looking up the splits but you can of you want to.  There's zero chance this year's secondary was worse statistically when everyone was 100% healthy. 

[eagle45]

1 minute ago, Ace Nova said:

I don't feel like looking up the splits but you can of you want to.  There's zero chance this year's secondary was worse statistically when everyone was 100% healthy. 

Such a cop out in a football discussion.  Define 100% healthy?  You know that’s weak.  The secondary really was not gashed by injury this year.  
 

And like I said, if a bunch of nagging injuries throw the bottom line off so horribly that you need to look up isolated splits to prove the secondary doesn’t suck...then again...invest more in depth than putting all the eggs in the basket of the #1 cb.

[Ace Nova]

Just now, eagle45 said:

Such a cop out in a football discussion.  Define 100% healthy?  You know that’s weak.  The secondary really was not gashed by injury this year.  
 

They're down to their 3rd and 4th string DB's....what are you talking about??? 

[Br3]

On 12/30/2020 at 7:24 PM, eagle45 said:

 

Did Slay have the impact the Eagles expected?  No.

Did Slay have the impact that should have been expected of a soon-to-be 30 year old CB in a passing league that makes it impossible to shut down WR's?   Yes.

 

What impact did the Eagles expect? 

[eagle45]

49 minutes ago, Br3 said:

What impact did the Eagles expect? 

I think they expected someone who would lead to overall improvement in pass defense.

[GoBirds2020]

Slay’s the least of our worries. 

[UK_EaglesFan89]

5 hours ago, GoBirds2020 said:

Slay’s the least of our worries. 

True, he's held down the CB1 role this year. But his age is a concern no doubt. 

[Road to Victory]

14 hours ago, eagle45 said:

QB rating against the Eagles in 2017: 79.5

QB rating against the Eagles in 2019: 90.8

QB rating against the Eagles in 2020: 104.2

Let it go.

 

I wouldn’t be so concerned with just stats. I think we can all agree there’s other factors involved such pass rush, poor LB’s, etc.

I would look at it this way. Slay is the best #1 we’ve had in years. Our #2 CB is horrible but has been for years. McLeod is a push. Jenkins to Mills at S is a huge downgrade and our nickel is really disappointing. Other than the upgrade of Slay, the secondary is worse than it’s been in years. 

[eagle45]

50 minutes ago, Road to Victory said:

I wouldn’t be so concerned with just stats. I think we can all agree there’s other factors involved such pass rush, poor LB’s, etc.

I would look at it this way. Slay is the best #1 we’ve had in years. Our #2 CB is horrible but has been for years. McLeod is a push. Jenkins to Mills at S is a huge downgrade and our nickel is really disappointing. Other than the upgrade of Slay, the secondary is worse than it’s been in years. 

That’s half my point.  We had the best #1 we’ve had in years and we had the worst bottom line pass defense we’ve had in years.

Thats why it’s not worth it to over invest in a #1.

[Road to Victory]

52 minutes ago, eagle45 said:

That’s half my point.  We had the best #1 we’ve had in years and we had the worst bottom line pass defense we’ve had in years.

Thats why it’s not worth it to over invest in a #1.

I wanted them to sign Bradberry last year. He just made so much more sense. First, you don’t have to give up picks to sign him. He’s young and performed very well against guys like Julio, Thomas, etc. I’m not sure if Howie made a push for him or not but after whiffing in free agency they had to do something at CB. Could you imagine another year with Mills there? 

[Miami]

Slay is fine.  We need another CB like him on the other side.  Sorta of odd that the Eagles rolled with Maddox this season when he is really a slot corner and gets hurt too.

If we had a bit more pressure from the edge, that would help a lot.  Barnett (eh) and Graham (a little better) are decent, not great.  Imagine if we had a bone-cruncher or two that teams had to game plan for.