Where do you assign the blame?

[UK_EaglesFan89]

8 hours ago, RememberTheKoy said:

But that is a risk the Eagles will have to take at this point because there is no other realistic alternative with the path they have chosen with retaining Doug and Howie.  

I think it's the risk they have to take because the alternative for this team is worse.

Would it suck to see Wentz turn it around on another team? Absolutely yes. But I don't think they can fix him here and keeping him is going to set this organisation back years. Let's not forget at this point they've brought back Doug and Howie so quite why people think this team can fix him is beyond me. Oh and not to mention as things stand Press is still here. 

Sadly this is the year to do it because they can eat that cap hit in Year one and be done with it and move on. 

[EagleJoe8]

18 hours ago, RememberTheKoy said:

 

It's the big mystery.  I think his psyche just broke in week 1 and he was shook from the first half pressure and was seeing ghosts the rest of that game.  But that doesn't explain why it carried over the rest of the season.  Maybe he has just taken too many hits and suffered too many injuries that he just isn't capable of remaining calm and focused in games anymore.  That added with him fearing the shadow of Hurts all season.  I think it is entirely mental but I don't think that means he will be able to correct it, at least not on this team.  For the sake of his career I think he needs a fresh start in a new city on a new team and I think he and his agent know that as well.  The only other chance he could have had is if the Eagles moved on from Roseman and Doug, two people he likely has no trust in anymore but the Eagles chose to keep Howie and Doug so Wentz will be the odd man out.  

 

I will root for him to succeed elsewhere but it would be awful if he was able to turn it around to the point that he is back in the MVP conversation meanwhile Hurts never really pans out as the guy here.  But that is a risk the Eagles will have to take at this point because there is no other realistic alternative with the path they have chosen with retaining Doug and Howie.  

I've echoed the same sentiments for awhile now. Wentz will not get better under this current structure. Wentz needs to go elsewhere, or new structure is needed here.

Obviously, we aren't getting new structure here. In addition, Wentz also needs to get the demons out of his head. If reports of him being uncoachable are accurate, then he won't succeed elsewhere either.

[UK_EaglesFan89]

3 hours ago, EagleJoe8 said:

I've echoed the same sentiments for awhile now. Wentz will not get better under this current structure. Wentz needs to go elsewhere, or new structure is needed here.

Here's the thing...

There are a few teams who have QBs who can elevate those around them. Those guys are few and far between. 

Then there are those who build a really top team and accept good play at the QB position. Those teams can build a really good team as they aren't paying the QB top dollar.

The Eagles aren't in that position. They have a really expensive QB who's potentially not anywhere near the top 10 in the league. That's a major problem because if Wentz can't be salvaged then they have no option but to move on now. 

[Ace Nova]

Not adding injuries and poor QB play to a poll like this makes it invalid, imo.

 

[XoqTionR]

Howie and Wentz. Howie jumped on contract to early. Wanted to sign him before price went up. Howie drafts Hurts as insurance, tried to use Hurts this year and doesn't work. Now makes Pederson the scapegoat and wants Wentz back. All 3 needed to be gone. Fans are in for long ride if more changes don't happen over this off season.

[Bwestbrook36]

59 minutes ago, XoqTionR said:

Howie and Wentz. Howie jumped on contract to early. Wanted to sign him before price went up. Howie drafts Hurts as insurance, tried to use Hurts this year and doesn't work. Now makes Pederson the scapegoat and wants Wentz back. All 3 needed to be gone. Fans are in for long ride if more changes don't happen over this off season.

Lol mostly everyone was carrying on and pounding their chest making fun of the Cowboys for not signing Dak before Wentz. Then said the cowboys are screwed and have to pay Dak what he doesn't deserve because they didn't sign him before Wentz and the eagles got a good deal....

Now it's they signed Wentz to early and they are stupid. 

[UK_EaglesFan89]

5 hours ago, Bwestbrook36 said:

Now it's they signed Wentz to early and they are stupid. 

Thing is... I don't think Howie should be killed for that contract. At the time Wentz got that contract I don't think there were many that felt it was a bad contract. Nobody thought that Wentz was going to regress to the level that he did. 

So as much as I do not like Howie and I think he's a bad GM I can't kill him for that contract. What he would deserve criticism for though is if he doesn't, at some point in the next year or so, look to get out of that contract. Unless of course Wentz turns it around. 

[Cochis_Calhoun]

7 hours ago, Bwestbrook36 said:

Lol mostly everyone was carrying on and pounding their chest making fun of the Cowboys for not signing Dak before Wentz. Then said the cowboys are screwed and have to pay Dak what he doesn't deserve because they didn't sign him before Wentz and the eagles got a good deal....

Now it's they signed Wentz to early and they are stupid. 

There was a sizeable contingent on the old board that said Wentz had been handed the big money contract too early I know because  I was one of them.  Wentz' injury history was grim, we'd already exercised his 5th year option which would've been this last year, if he'd been balling out by the middle of this season then you can negotiate the extension, make it clear you'll use the tag if necessary,  even if he was back to 2017 Wentz then he'd still only be worth maybe a shade more than he's being paid now, maybe Russell Wilson money (another 12million over 5years).  This was never a situation like the Chiefs getting a generational talent in Mahomes nailed down early or negotiating an extension with an elite veteran, it was always a negotiation with a good but not yet great quarterback. The Cowboys waited and this year showed them what Dak means to that offense, Dak is the difference between a stuttering inconsistent mess of an offense and one that was scoring and moving the chains as well as anything in the NFL,  this year has shown again that the difference between Wentz and his back up is nowhere near as wide as it should be.

As it is, a year on the tag to see if he can recover his form and if not cut bait would sound a lot better than $60million dead cap this year or $25million next year to get shot of a guy who's game has collapsed to a historic extent huh?

[Bwestbrook36]

4 hours ago, UK_EaglesFan89 said:

Thing is... I don't think Howie should be killed for that contract. At the time Wentz got that contract I don't think there were many that felt it was a bad contract. Nobody thought that Wentz was going to regress to the level that he did. 

So as much as I do not like Howie and I think he's a bad GM I can't kill him for that contract. What he would deserve criticism for though is if he doesn't, at some point in the next year or so, look to get out of that contract. Unless of course Wentz turns it around. 

There is somewhere in the next year or 2 that it would be a lot easier to dump his contract. I don't know all the ins and outs of it. That's what I've read and kept hearing about though

[ManchesterEagle]

2 hours ago, Cochis_Calhoun said:

There was a sizeable contingent on the old board that said Wentz had been handed the big money contract too early I know because  I was one of them.  Wentz' injury history was grim, we'd already exercised his 5th year option which would've been this last year, if he'd been balling out by the middle of this season then you can negotiate the extension, make it clear you'll use the tag if necessary,  even if he was back to 2017 Wentz then he'd still only be worth maybe a shade more than he's being paid now, maybe Russell Wilson money (another 12million over 5years).  This was never a situation like the Chiefs getting a generational talent in Mahomes nailed down early or negotiating an extension with an elite veteran, it was always a negotiation with a good but not yet great quarterback. The Cowboys waited and this year showed them what Dak means to that offense, Dak is the difference between a stuttering inconsistent mess of an offense and one that was scoring and moving the chains as well as anything in the NFL,  this year has shown again that the difference between Wentz and his back up is nowhere near as wide as it should be.

As it is, a year on the tag to see if he can recover his form and if not cut bait would sound a lot better than $60million dead cap this year or $25million next year to get shot of a guy who's game has collapsed to a historic extent huh?

Yeah I thought they overpaid for Wentz. Can’t say I saw this regression coming, but given his injury history and that he only had one elite season under his belt, I thought it was an overpay. The guy hadn’t even won a playoff game. (He still hasn’t).

Should have either been a more team friendly deal or let it continue and use the tag if necessary.

[EazyEaglez]

3 hours ago, ManchesterEagle said:

Yeah I thought they overpaid for Wentz. Can’t say I saw this regression coming, but given his injury history and that he only had one elite season under his belt, I thought it was an overpay. The guy hadn’t even won a playoff game. (He still hasn’t).

Should have either been a more team friendly deal or let it continue and use the tag if necessary.

I’m not sure which was the overpay. Was it the draft capital they keep blaming for their lack of talent or is it the financial money they gave him?

[Bwestbrook36]

4 hours ago, ManchesterEagle said:

Yeah I thought they overpaid for Wentz. Can’t say I saw this regression coming, but given his injury history and that he only had one elite season under his belt, I thought it was an overpay. The guy hadn’t even won a playoff game. (He still hasn’t).

Should have either been a more team friendly deal or let it continue and use the tag if necessary.

His contract really isn't that bad if he wouldn't of regressed so badly no one would even care.

What if you wait and he has a dak prescott type year then Mahomes signs that massive deal then what? Then you have to decide whether or not he can get you further and possibly pay 40 mil a year. Franchise tags only cause problems and force you to pay even more. 

Quarterbacks get paid no matter what and most of those contracts end up being an overpay. It's the way the league is. There massive contracts are a gamble on QBs

[ManchesterEagle]

15 minutes ago, Bwestbrook36 said:

His contract really isn't that bad if he wouldn't of regressed so badly no one would even care.

What if you wait and he has a dak prescott type year then Mahomes signs that massive deal then what? Then you have to decide whether or not he can get you further and possibly pay 40 mil a year. Franchise tags only cause problems and force you to pay even more. 

Quarterbacks get paid no matter what and most of those contracts end up being an overpay. It's the way the league is. There massive contracts are a gamble on QBs

True to a degree, but I think the thing with Wentz was there were question marks regarding both his performance and more importantly at the time his injury issues. He was being paid like Russell Wilson when he had neither the durability or consistency.

[ManchesterEagle]

53 minutes ago, EazyEaglez said:

I’m not sure which was the overpay. Was it the draft capital they keep blaming for their lack of talent or is it the financial money they gave him?

Well there is an argument that Wentz wasn’t that good in the first place and that his elite season was due mainly to having an incredibly strong team around him and unsustainable 3rd down and touchdown percentages.

But I know you’re kidding and obviously the Bradford trade meant that we were not badly out of pocket for trading up.

[EazyEaglez]

1 hour ago, ManchesterEagle said:

Well there is an argument that Wentz wasn’t that good in the first place and that his elite season was due mainly to having an incredibly strong team around him and unsustainable 3rd down and touchdown percentages.

But I know you’re kidding and obviously the Bradford trade meant that we were not badly out of pocket for trading up.

Oh I agree with that, but hearing the owner blame the lack of talent on their lack of picks rather than on his GMs lack of ability I just thought I’d throw it out there. 

[ManchesterEagle]

23 minutes ago, EazyEaglez said:

Oh I agree with that, but hearing the owner blame the lack of talent on their lack of picks rather than on his GMs lack of ability I just thought I’d throw it out there. 

Yeah I knew where you were coming from!

[Cochis_Calhoun]

4 hours ago, Bwestbrook36 said:

His contract really isn't that bad if he wouldn't of regressed so badly no one would even care.

What if you wait and he has a dak prescott type year then Mahomes signs that massive deal then what? Then you have to decide whether or not he can get you further and possibly pay 40 mil a year. Franchise tags only cause problems and force you to pay even more. 

Quarterbacks get paid no matter what and most of those contracts end up being an overpay. It's the way the league is. There massive contracts are a gamble on QBs

If you end up paying him Mahomes money because he's playing at Mahomes level that's a good thing, but as I say my view is a full season at 17 level would have made him worth a couple of million a year more at best, his numbers would've been right around Russell Wilson level.  That said I'd argue Wilson has had better seasons with less than ideal receivers and not a lot at tailback since Marshawn retired, for my money Wilson is a lot better leader of men. 

You take Wilson out of Seattle since he was drafted and they'd have made the play offs maybe half as many times if they're lucky, I think the Eagles could've backed into the playoffs out of the NFC East '18 and' 19 with Foles, I don't think Wentz has elevated the team to anywhere near the same extent as Wilson.

[ManchesterEagle]

57 minutes ago, Cochis_Calhoun said:

If you end up paying him Mahomes money because he's playing at Mahomes level that's a good thing, but as I say my view is a full season at 17 level would have made him worth a couple of million a year more at best, his numbers would've been right around Russell Wilson level.  That said I'd argue Wilson has had better seasons with less than ideal receivers and not a lot at tailback since Marshawn retired, for my money Wilson is a lot better leader of men. 

You take Wilson out of Seattle since he was drafted and they'd have made the play offs maybe half as many times if they're lucky, I think the Eagles could've backed into the playoffs out of the NFC East '18 and' 19 with Foles, I don't think Wentz has elevated the team to anywhere near the same extent as Wilson.

And we have to remember how good that 2017 team was. 

OL - Peters, Kelce, Brooks, Johnson - all pro bowl/all pro players. Wisniewski was really good that year as well. Basically best line in league.

RB - Blount and later Ajayi - great one two punch.

WR - Jeffery - legitimate number 1 receiver at that point, if not elite. Agholor - was a very good number 2 WR. T Smith was the perfect deep threat compliment.

TE - Zach Ertz - top 3 TE.

And they all stayed pretty healthy. People talk about how good Foles was when he was here. Foles is good if he has a really good team around him and pretty bad when he doesn't. Maybe Wentz is the same and can't elevate those around him. Once you become a franchise QB you can't expect to be surrounded by all pro bowlers, there's going to be weaknesses you have to overcome. (Although actually Howie has invested heavily to try and help Wentz to the detriment of the D, he's just got it wrong/had bad luck over the past 3 years) 

[UK_EaglesFan89]

4 minutes ago, ManchesterEagle said:

OL - Peters, Kelce, Brooks, Johnson - all pro bowl/all pro players. Wisniewski was really good that year as well. Basically best line in league.

Peters got injured though and missed most of the season?

[ManchesterEagle]

24 minutes ago, UK_EaglesFan89 said:

Peters got injured though and missed most of the season?

Wentz got him for 7 of his 13 games, but yeah. That was the only major injury though and Vaitai played pretty well in his place.

[UK_EaglesFan89]

8 hours ago, ManchesterEagle said:

Wentz got him for 7 of his 13 games, but yeah. That was the only major injury though and Vaitai played pretty well in his place.

That was the only major injury? I don't think so bud. They lost a lot of key players that year. 

[ManchesterEagle]

3 hours ago, UK_EaglesFan89 said:

That was the only major injury? I don't think so bud. They lost a lot of key players that year. 

It wasn’t bad on offense though. They lost Sproles and I think that was it.

 

[UK_EaglesFan89]

42 minutes ago, ManchesterEagle said:

It wasn’t bad on offense though. They lost Sproles and I think that was it.

 

Umm... Quite possibly yes. I seem to recall a few serious injuries but the last couple of years have made 2017 seem tame.

[ManchesterEagle]

13 minutes ago, UK_EaglesFan89 said:

Umm... Quite possibly yes. I seem to recall a few serious injuries but the last couple of years have made 2017 seem tame.

Yeah that was pretty much it on the O. They obviously lost Wentz as well.

Darby was injured for a few weeks and we lost Hicks for the season on D.

Also lost our kicker but obviously got Elliot who lit the fuse with that 61 yarder.

As you say it seemed bad at the time, but compared to the last 3 years it was great!

[EagleJoe8]

On 1/13/2021 at 2:27 AM, UK_EaglesFan89 said:

Thing is... I don't think Howie should be killed for that contract. At the time Wentz got that contract I don't think there were many that felt it was a bad contract. Nobody thought that Wentz was going to regress to the level that he did. 

So as much as I do not like Howie and I think he's a bad GM I can't kill him for that contract. What he would deserve criticism for though is if he doesn't, at some point in the next year or so, look to get out of that contract. Unless of course Wentz turns it around. 

I liked Wentz a lot more back then than I do now, but even I didn’t like the timing of his contract. The numbers themselves I don’t care about. QB contracts are what they are. I thought they did it too early. His 2018 season didn’t inspire me to the point of believing he deserved the money right then. I thought they should have waited at least a year before doing the deal.