50 minutes ago, DBW said:

There are already cars and suvs on the market you can buy today with over 350 mile ranges.  I’ll agree that the charging availability for long range trips is an issue, but the typical commuters who live 25-50 miles from their jobs have no problem even in today’s world.  What they need to develop is rapid charging and potential for recharging while driving. Expect to see very futuristic developments such as "solar skin” or shells on the cars that will charge them while driving.  The tech is already in development and could be ready faster than you think, but what holds it back is the political lobbying.  With Biden in charge things will get moving again quickly.  
 

on a related note it’s hilarious that most of the people that cried about the pipeline stoppage because they don’t think clean energy is ever going to work and more harmful for the environment have a portfolio full of lithium, and clean energy tech.  Most of which are Chinese owned companies so they’re helping to fuel the competitive economy they so badly despise.  

You're not gonna be charging a 50 kwh pack with solar cells.

11 minutes ago, we_gotta_believe said:

And the battery packs on it are massive. Which means two things, high up-front cost, and lengthy recharge times. When gas is this cheap, your break even point vs a comparable gas car is likely to be 5-10 years out, even with subsidies. 

Imagine people trying to heat their homes and charge their car in the winter... Yeesh, not to mention the market is moving towards SUVs and tesla cars alone are 40,000 . Screw that. 

1 hour ago, we_gotta_believe said:

And the battery packs on it are massive. Which means two things, high up-front cost, and lengthy recharge times. When gas is this cheap, your break even point vs a comparable gas car is likely to be 5-10 years out, even with subsidies. 

The model 3 I described is around 43,000, not considering the tax credits you can get for having an EV. Not all that expensive with the features you get. And the math I did says with today's gas prices the cost of "fuel" is a bit more than half of what a fairly economical gas powered car costs.

I have not made up my mind to make the leap but this is all going by my preliminary research.

1 hour ago, we_gotta_believe said:

You're not gonna be charging a 50 kwh pack with solar cells.

Well maybe not charging but powering yes. They already exist

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.dezeen.com/2020/12/11/aptera-solar-electric-car-no-charging-design/amp/

 

10 minutes ago, DBW said:

Well maybe not charging but powering yes. They already exist

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.dezeen.com/2020/12/11/aptera-solar-electric-car-no-charging-design/amp/

 

That looks like it weighs a few hundred pounds. It won't scale up as easily to a full size car or SUV which weighs 10x that.

3 minutes ago, we_gotta_believe said:

That looks like it weighs a few hundred pounds. It won't scale up as easily to a full size car or SUV which weighs 10x that.

Through time it will.  We are further along in this development than you think.  Process has always been stunted by big oil and guys like Cruz and trump.  It’s time to take the shackles off 

clean energy is the fastest growing industry by far.  20% yoy and climbing. Outpacing the petroleum industry 3 to 1.  And pays 20-30% more on jobs that don’t even need college degrees.  Oil is dying quickly and if we don’t get on front of this race, China will own out asses for another 100 years. 

50 minutes ago, Boogyman said:

The model 3 I described is around 43,000, not considering the tax credits you can get for having an EV. Not all that expensive with the features you get. And the math I did says with today's gas prices the cost of "fuel" is a bit more than half of what a fairly economical gas powered car costs.

I have not made up my mind to make the leap but this is all going by my preliminary research.

Yeah it's honestly a decent deal at that price. Not sure how much they're making on them (if they're turning a profit at all), but it can't be much.

13 minutes ago, we_gotta_believe said:

That looks like it weighs a few hundred pounds. It won't scale up as easily to a full size car or SUV which weighs 10x that.

Here’s an suv with solar power 300 mile range. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.theverge.com/platform/amp/2020/1/5/21050802/fisker-ocean-electric-suv-solar-roof-range-price-ces-2020

4 minutes ago, DBW said:

Here’s an suv with solar power 300 mile range. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.theverge.com/platform/amp/2020/1/5/21050802/fisker-ocean-electric-suv-solar-roof-range-price-ces-2020

As stated in the article:

though it’s only likely to add a few miles of range a day at best

Here another one with a massive truck. 700 mile range. Solar to run ac/heat and auxiliary things, would extend battery life.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.autoblog.com/amp/2020/04/19/triton-solar-model-h-electric-suv/

1 minute ago, we_gotta_believe said:

As stated in the article:

though it’s only likely to add a few miles of range a day at best

It’s not a perfect science yet.  But it’s getting there.  The major issue with solar is that it’s inconsistent - cloudy days as an example. I might not be the sole method of powering a vehicle, but an assistance mechanism to extend battery life.  Mitsubishi has tech that allows the car to act as a power source for you house if your power goes out.  

Just now, DBW said:

Here another one with a massive truck. 700 mile range. Solar to run ac/heat and auxiliary things, would extend battery life.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.autoblog.com/amp/2020/04/19/triton-solar-model-h-electric-suv/

We're talking about marginal improvements. Like 2-3% of the total range. You're gonna need to charge these things for several hours overnight. Moving something that heavy takes a lot of energy. 

2 minutes ago, we_gotta_believe said:

We're talking about marginal improvements. Like 2-3% of the total range. You're gonna need to charge these things for several hours overnight. Moving something that heavy takes a lot of energy. 

And given GMs proposed 15 year timeline, I Think we’ll see that by then. 

Just now, DBW said:

It’s not a perfect science yet.  But it’s getting there.  The major issue with solar is that it’s inconsistent - cloudy days as an example. I might not be the sole method of powering a vehicle, but an assistance mechanism to extend battery life.  Mitsubishi has tech that allows the car to act as a power source for you house if your power goes out.  

Even in full sunlight, photovoltaic cells are still too inefficient. I work with guys who were determined on buying and installing solar shingles until they ran the numbers. Break even point was like 15-20 years out. And that's without accounting for any potential occlusion from snow during the winter.

Just now, DBW said:

And given GMs proposed 15 year timeline, I Think we’ll see that by then. 

Maybe, maybe not. Consider me skeptical for now, based on the current technology available.

22 minutes ago, DBW said:

Through time it will.  We are further along in this development than you think.  Process has always been stunted by big oil and guys like Cruz and trump.  It’s time to take the shackles off 

clean energy is the fastest growing industry by far.  20% yoy and climbing. Outpacing the petroleum industry 3 to 1.  And pays 20-30% more on jobs that don’t even need college degrees.  Oil is dying quickly and if we don’t get on front of this race, China will own out asses for another 100 years. 

Clean energy growth is largely driven by subsidies.  The issue with China is more complex since they have some of the largest rare earth mineral reserves required for current clean energy tech and the lax environmental policies to allow them to cheaply dispose of the waste created by manufacturing green tech.  

 

This shift will happen but not at the pace you think nor at any mandated pace.

5 hours ago, Boogyman said:

I have been looking into the Tesla model 3 as I am moving about 50 miles away from my work. The extended range model (basically the middle of the line model) has a range of like 360 miles. 

Just make sure you check insurance rates before buying it. They are much higher than with normal cars because they basically total the car for even relatively minor damage since only Tesla works on them and buying parts on your own is pretty much impossible. Make sure to check how far away the nearest Tesla service center is to you. 

2 hours ago, BBE said:

Clean energy growth is largely driven by subsidies.  The issue with China is more complex since they have some of the largest rare earth mineral reserves required for current clean energy tech and the lax environmental policies to allow them to cheaply dispose of the waste created by manufacturing green tech.  

 

This shift will happen but not at the pace you think nor at any mandated pace.

Respectfully disagree with the pace.  Current administration, if they live up to their campaign promises, should remove red tape and fix the trade deficits and all the crap that the previous admin Fed up.  The auto is a great example. Trump cut taxes in the hopes they’d bring manufacturing back to the US. That didn’t happen. They, GM specifically, bought back all of their stocks with the savings, still took a government bail out on top of that, and kept manufacturing overseas.  Biden is ending all of that nonsense (hopefully) and incentivizing US manufacturing with the green initiatives which particularly impacts the auto industry.  He will raise taxes for those who continue to outsource, which should in theory give them a reason to bring it back here and to also work on the green energy aspect.  China is the largest import source for solar panels. The top 5 in the world are Chinese.  We are already behind so to beat them at the solar industry where I believe the greatest impact could be, we need it to be here and we need to heavily invest in it.  Otherwise we are going to be forever slave to them.  

2 hours ago, we_gotta_believe said:

Even in full sunlight, photovoltaic cells are still too inefficient. I work with guys who were determined on buying and installing solar shingles until they ran the numbers. Break even point was like 15-20 years out. And that's without accounting for any potential occlusion from snow during the winter.

Maybe, maybe not. Consider me skeptical for now, based on the current technology available.

Solar panels have come a long way in recent years.  I think it’s something like 5-7 years to recoup the cost for an average home now.  There are websites you can calculate it.  Mine right now as a 2200 sf home with an average of $70-90 a month on electric (natural gas heat) is roughly 7 years.  Obviously depends on the size of home, region, etc but if you were to build a new home today and equip it with solar panels, on a 30 year stay, you’re making out way better in the long run. 

I don't think EVs can completely replace gas cars for a while for all uses. They can replace commuter cars though, if I do take the plunge and buy one I will still keep a gas vehicle as an option. Right now I cannot find a single reason not to buy an electric car to commute to work and drive around town doing errands and such around on the weekend. The only pause I would have as far as using an EV is a very long driving trip.

The stupid long charge times are a no go for me. Add in anyone living in an apartment or parking on a street in the city. People still put chairs out after shoveling out of snow, imagine someone parking in their charging spot (assuming you'd be allowed to add a charging station outside you're row home) 

12 minutes ago, 20dawk4life said:

The stupid long charge times are a no go for me. Add in anyone living in an apartment or parking on a street in the city. People still put chairs out after shoveling out of snow, imagine someone parking in their charging spot (assuming you'd be allowed to add a charging station outside you're row home) 

Agreed it wouldn't work for everyone with the tech available right now. But for those of us who check certain boxes it seems like the perfect vehicle for commutes.

50 minutes ago, Boogyman said:

Agreed it wouldn't work for everyone with the tech available right now. But for those of us who check certain boxes it seems like the perfect vehicle for commutes.

Sure but this thread isn't or shouldn't e about if it's good for an individual. This is more large scale because a company is switching its entire fleet to EV, supposedly. 

Just now, 20dawk4life said:

Sure but this thread isn't or shouldn't e about if it's good for an individual. This is more large scale because a company is switching its entire fleet to EV, supposedly. 

True. I guess the timing of this thread coincided with me looking into EVs and I semi hijacked it lol.

To get back on topic I'd say GM appears to be biting off more than it can chew, but it's possible they know something we don't or could even get lucky if some sort of tech takes a leap forward. I personally wouldn't bet on it though. Like you said above there are way to many situations where an EV is just not practical.

13 hours ago, DBW said:

Solar panels have come a long way in recent years.  I think it’s something like 5-7 years to recoup the cost for an average home now.  There are websites you can calculate it.  Mine right now as a 2200 sf home with an average of $70-90 a month on electric (natural gas heat) is roughly 7 years.  Obviously depends on the size of home, region, etc but if you were to build a new home today and equip it with solar panels, on a 30 year stay, you’re making out way better in the long run. 

Buddy of mine is building a house now with the Tesla shingles. It’s a cool system but the issue is having to deal with Tesla. They really are a mess of a company. His construction has been held up for 2 months waiting for them. He says getting through to even talk to them is a mess and when you actually do they basically act like they don’t care if your house is sitting for 2 months half built waiting on their $70,000 shingles.

I'm more interested in the plans to deal with the waste. These toxic battery packs aren't going to break down on their own.

The current model of recycling electronic devices is the equivalent of dumping used motor oil in a hole.