40 minutes ago, Jsvand12 said:

Buddy of mine is building a house now with the Tesla shingles. It’s a cool system but the issue is having to deal with Tesla. They really are a mess of a company. His construction has been held up for 2 months waiting for them. He says getting through to even talk to them is a mess and when you actually do they basically act like they don’t care if your house is sitting for 2 months half built waiting on their $70,000 shingles.

Well customer service aside, the tech should work out in the long run.  Tesla needs some real competition and that’ll change their smugness.  

26 minutes ago, lynched1 said:

I'm more interested in the plans to deal with the waste. These toxic battery packs aren't going to break down on their own.

The current model of recycling electronic devices is the equivalent of dumping used motor oil in a hole.

There is a focus on recycling them with recycle-able materials and having robots disassemble safely.  They’ve also figured out how to reuse them to power other things, for instance, in Japan they use them to connect to solar panels and power 7-11 stores.  They run at about 80% of original capacity which is enough to repurpose for lower power needs.  

If GM was smart they’d do like Ford and the all electric transit that’s going to come out soon. Get a fleet together for amazon and other delivery companies that can allow the vans to charge over night. Having a set routine and knowing how far each van will go each day is the best option. 

On 1/30/2021 at 10:06 AM, we_gotta_believe said:

There are 3 major hurdles here, 1 regarding scale, and 2 regarding physics. All 3 of these are external factors outside the control of a vehicle manufacturer.

The first, is charging infrastructure. Look up the stats for how ubiquitous gas stations currently are vs charging stations. Now you might say, 15 years gives you plenty of time, but rolling out chargers at scale is no simple task and hardly a risk-free investment for those funding such projects. The past 15 years don't show any encouraging trends in this regard.

The second, is related to battery technology. Right now we need massive battery packs to provide the energy capacity for useful ranges between charges. The reason for this is that most Americans won't be happy with ranges under 50 miles or so. Even then, one missed charge puts you at risk of nervously finding the nearest charger and now having to plan your day around that. Once you get to ranges above 100 or 150 mi, you can forgo a charge or two without worry but that battery pack is massive. Again, 15 years allows plenty of time for this technology to advance which is true in this case. But the energy density of gasoline is so damn high, and it's so damn cheap right now (thanks to the advent of shale extraction) that the cost effectiveness is a very dicey proposition, even that far into the future. Maybe they're betting on heavy subsidies being increased even further, or maybe they think people will sacrifice on cost to help address climate change. Hard to say, but again, not exactly a low bar here.

And the last one is related to the second one above. Charge times. We take for granted how fast it takes to replenish range with gasoline. We can add hundreds of miles of range within minutes. Good luck trying to do that with a massive lithium based battery without the thing exploding. Again you say, 15 years allows for plenty of innovation, but rolling out fuel cells we ain't, nor can we cut down on charging times all that much even with massive cooling systems or some new fangled density optimization designs. The fact is likely to remain, large battery packs take a long time to charge because they get hot very fast.

Now what GM may be doing is placing a bet on the next generation's attitude towards vehicle ownership and the environment in general. They might think young kids are less likely to own a vehicle due to environmental concerns and thus less likely to require typical ranges we see today. Honestly, it's not a crazy idea after what just happened to all of us. The segment of the workforce that will be working from home is expected to dwarf what it was pre-covid, so a lot of those people might not really need a vehicle with the same range it has now, and with reduced ranges come a lowering of the second and third hurdles I mentioned above. Now do I think it'll actually happen? F no. If I'm betting on this, I'll put a lot of money down that GM still will be making and selling big ass gas guzzling SUVs for the soccer moms who won't want to be dealing with range/charge issues on the way to soccer practice. They'll be hybrids at best. We are the richest country in the world, and a result, we are an extremely entitled culture that lives a very inefficient life full of waste and excess. We don't drive SUVs and trucks because we need to, we drive them because we can. So if you're asking me if I think any of that will change in 15 years, my only response is to wheeze in pained, obese, American laughter.

All good points, but I would add something else to all this. When I park my car in my driveway overnight, I basically have the same amount of fuel in the tank as the day before.  What happens to a battery if I park my car overnight and don't plug it in?  Does the battery still drain?  Will a battery drain overnight on a really cold night?  If so, that would be the equivalent of losing 1/10th a tank of gas overnight and needing to go to a gas station sooner during the week.

4 minutes ago, xzmattzx said:

All good points, but I would add something else to all this. When I park my car in my driveway overnight, I basically have the same amount of fuel in the tank as the day before.  What happens to a battery if I park my car overnight and don't plug it in?  Does the battery still drain?  Will a battery drain overnight on a really cold night?  If so, that would be the equivalent of losing 1/10th a tank of gas overnight and needing to go to a gas station sooner during the week.

Lithium based batteries have a very low self discharge profile, but there is a small drain from the on-board electronics since they don't fully shut off (think of most household devices that go into standby rather than fully powering off.) Not anything that you'd notice overnight,  but you might lose a few miles if left sitting for a week.

You bring up something else I hadn't thought of though... The inconvenience of charging an electric vehicle in your driveway. I park in the garage, but I notice a lot of my neighbors don't and leave their vehicles in the driveway instead. Dragging a cord out every day and leaving it plugged in with the garage door closed might get annoying and looks kinda dumb. 

 

I’m all for electric cars, but unless they can get the charge time down to around 15 mins and ramp up charging stations I’ll never own one. As of now they are basically good as a second car but pretty impractical as your only car. I go on at least a few road trips per year and an electric car would make them much more difficult.

1 hour ago, we_gotta_believe said:

Lithium based batteries have a very low self discharge profile, but there is a small drain from the on-board electronics since they don't fully shut off (think of most household devices that go into standby rather than fully powering off.) Not anything that you'd notice overnight,  but you might lose a few miles if left sitting for a week.

You bring up something else I hadn't thought of though... The inconvenience of charging an electric vehicle in your driveway. I park in the garage, but I notice a lot of my neighbors don't and leave their vehicles in the driveway instead. Dragging a cord out every day and leaving it plugged in with the garage door closed might get annoying and looks kinda dumb. 

 

This also brings up an issue if you have more than one car, but only a one car driveway or garage.  You’d need to charge more than one, and also be parked right in front of your house.  If you’re on a street with street parking, you may not always get a spot in front of your house.

7 hours ago, we_gotta_believe said:

Lithium based batteries have a very low self discharge profile, but there is a small drain from the on-board electronics since they don't fully shut off (think of most household devices that go into standby rather than fully powering off.) Not anything that you'd notice overnight,  but you might lose a few miles if left sitting for a week.

You bring up something else I hadn't thought of though... The inconvenience of charging an electric vehicle in your driveway. I park in the garage, but I notice a lot of my neighbors don't and leave their vehicles in the driveway instead. Dragging a cord out every day and leaving it plugged in with the garage door closed might get annoying and looks kinda dumb. 

 

Or if the only charging station in town is next to a bar and you have some drunk a-hole unplugging your car in the middle of the night 🥸

6 hours ago, Jsvand12 said:

I’m all for electric cars, but unless they can get the charge time down to around 15 mins and ramp up charging stations I’ll never own one. As of now they are basically good as a second car but pretty impractical as your only car. I go on at least a few road trips per year and an electric car would make them much more difficult.

Yeah if I decide to get one I will use it as my commuter and my wife's vehicle will stay a gas car unless the tech changes. She works from home so doesn't drive to much during the week anyway, and she tends to have mini vans and we use that for road trips anyhow.

GM ???? Lol. 

The key to this is if they could actually make a quality vehicle. 

Let alone make a vehicle that their own people can diagnose and work on.

Since just about anything they make even to this day leaks some type of fluid....... imma guessing you can recharge your AA batteries by leaving them under a new high class chariot. 

Nice that they stepped up to say this........ probably hoping to distract the government that they owe money to for the last few years. 

I grew up with Chevys Pontiacs and Cadillacs...... loved them... had a few Silverados........in the last 10 to 15 years I wouldn't even remotely consider anything GM makes.

38 minutes ago, Steve 17 said:

GM ???? Lol. 

The key to this is if they could actually make a quality vehicle. 

Let alone make a vehicle that their own people can diagnose and work on.

Since just about anything they make even to this day leaks some type of fluid....... imma guessing you can recharge your AA batteries by leaving them under a new high class chariot. 

Nice that they stepped up to say this........ probably hoping to distract the government that they owe money to for the last few years. 

I grew up with Chevys Pontiacs and Cadillacs...... loved them... had a few Silverados........in the last 10 to 15 years I wouldn't even remotely consider anything GM makes.

I love chevy too. Actually haven't stopped buying them. I've never had any trouble with any of them. Comes down to luck I guess. My friend bought a Honda CR-V rated one of the best SUVs there is...... It's been in and out of the shop non stop with electrical issues meanwhile asking me where is a good place to go to get their car worked on. I said " I have no idea I don't remember the last time I've had car problems" lol. 

I grew up with having all Fords and they were absolutely horrible every one of them. 

2 hours ago, Boogyman said:

Yeah if I decide to get one I will use it as my commuter and my wife's vehicle will stay a gas car unless the tech changes. She works from home so doesn't drive to much during the week anyway, and she tends to have mini vans and we use that for road trips anyhow.

I have an electric car. Not for environmental reasons, but because it is stupid fast and fun to drive (i.e., not a Tesla). The charging thing is a complete non-factor since I only drive like 20-30 miles a day when going to work. You can easily charge it every night. You never run your battery to zero, and my wife has a hybrid if we go on a longer trip.

When she did have a Model S, we drove it to her parents' house in Northern CA a few times. Stopping for an hour to charge is annoying, but you end up getting lunch. But for a daily commuter car, a fully electric is great.

This is a pretty good article on bidens plan. Brings up good points we’ve already talked about but also shows that in some ways we are ahead of the game.  It’s clear that this is the future.  

https://www.google.com/amp/s/insideevs.com/news/483154/president-biden-plan-ev-charging-infrastructure/amp/

1 hour ago, vikas83 said:

I have an electric car. Not for environmental reasons, but because it is stupid fast and fun to drive (i.e., not a Tesla). The charging thing is a complete non-factor since I only drive like 20-30 miles a day when going to work. You can easily charge it every night. You never run your battery to zero, and my wife has a hybrid if we go on a longer trip.

When she did have a Model S, we drove it to her parents' house in Northern CA a few times. Stopping for an hour to charge is annoying, but you end up getting lunch. But for a daily commuter car, a fully electric is great.

My commute after I move will be pretty much exactly 100 miles round trip. The model 3 I am looking at has a range of well over 300 miles. My current commuter "beater" get very good gas millage but the trade off is its a complete dog. The Model 3 is many steps up from it in terms of performance and features.

The future