Cornerback

[ManchesterEagle]

On 5/6/2021 at 1:54 PM, pgcd3 said:

Yeah while Schwartz frustrated me at time I had respect for him as did the league. The playoff performances outside the SB were the best we've had and he's generally worked with little talent outside the DL.  I think fans who are expecting first year coordinator Gannon to out perform him are setting the bar maybe unrealistically high.  He might be more aggressive which we like more but I'm not sure the results will be better with this talent

 

On 5/6/2021 at 8:21 AM, Traveler Vic said:

Is there a perfect defensive scheme out there, that other NFL teams will not crack in a very short time?  Switch to Gannon is extremely refreshing..But with what Jim head inheriting the leagues worst defense...he did OK, and helped Eagles win the only Super Bowl in this town. Thanks Jim.

Schwartz was massively underrated here. I think it was probably time for a change, as he was looking weary and short of ideas in his last year, but he held together this D with minimal talent. 2017 was a really good D (Super Bowl apart). Even with the Super Bowl performance he averages conceding 17 points in the playoffs, which is incredible. That's better than Buddy or JJ in the playoffs. They were both great, but had far more talent to work with.

Yes his scheme put pressure on the corners. It also shuts down the run most of the time and cuts off the easy pass. 

I want Gannan to do well, but it's hard to blitz when you are relying on players like Maddox and Michael Jacquet to hold up in man coverage against elite receivers. He needs more talent.

[UK_EaglesFan89]

27 minutes ago, ManchesterEagle said:

Schwartz was massively underrated here. I think it was probably time for a change, as he was looking weary and short of ideas in his last year, but he held together this D with minimal talent. 2017 was a really good D (Super Bowl apart). Even with the Super Bowl performance he averages conceding 17 points in the playoffs, which is incredible. That's better than Buddy or JJ in the playoffs. They were both great, but had far more talent to work with.

It's a tough one with Schwartz and I know we have discussed this on a number of occasions. What he managed to do with limited talent (in the secondary) was pretty impressive. But he absolutely had his flaws and one of those was that he just wasn't very creative. He didn't disguise a lot and he left his corners (who weren't very good) on an island. 

[kentwo]

1 hour ago, UK_EaglesFan89 said:

It's a tough one with Schwartz and I know we have discussed this on a number of occasions. What he managed to do with limited talent (in the secondary) was pretty impressive. But he absolutely had his flaws and one of those was that he just wasn't very creative. He didn't disguise a lot and he left his corners (who weren't very good) on an island. 

Just seeing the defense be a little more complicated in what they show presnap should be exciting. Schwartz was good and he will be successful for another team but his philosophy of not disgusting coverages and keeping the pass rush simple with limited movement was frustrating. His philosophy on turnovers was also questionable. But on the other hand his defense was solid for the most part. Other than last year he tried to set things up to cover the deficiencies at LB and cover corners. 
 

The incoming draft class has a lot of positional tweener types of players. Should fit well if Gannon is going to have Dline do a lot or shifts or stunts. Same with safeties and LBs mixing up coverage and box responsibilities. 

[Traveler Vic]

2 hours ago, ManchesterEagle said:

 

Schwartz was massively underrated here. I think it was probably time for a change, as he was looking weary and short of ideas in his last year, but he held together this D with minimal talent. 2017 was a really good D (Super Bowl apart). Even with the Super Bowl performance he averages conceding 17 points in the playoffs, which is incredible. That's better than Buddy or JJ in the playoffs. They were both great, but had far more talent to work with.

Yes his scheme put pressure on the corners. It also shuts down the run most of the time and cuts off the easy pass. 

I want Gannan to do well, but it's hard to blitz when you are relying on players like Maddox and Michael Jacquet to hold up in man coverage against elite receivers. He needs more talent.

I always had a much higher opinion of Schwartz than most of TATE. And when people said his scheme is predictable and boring..I responded GREAT!!! No good coordinator will show his moves without exposing them to opponents analysis. Saving some plays for the time, when you really need it, is a sign of experienced coordinator..Which Schwartz clearly is. 

Surprisingly some of the CBs who do not do well with man, because they are not fast enough, like Rasul Douglas,.... are superstars in Cover 2 defense. We have plenty of similar CBs who may flourish with Cover2, which I suspect Gannon will run and will do an adequate job.  

As far as more Talent..That's a Pipe dream..You can never have enough talent and you can never pay and retain enough talent in this league. You need some key cornerstone pieces like a good DE, CB, and or DT. You need a smart Safety, and at least 1 versatile LB. The rest of the pieces you have to jungle... so not to have any glaring holes in your defense. Eagles plugged a few holes in this draft and free agency..which is why I am optimistic..that baring any unforeseen injuries..we could do better than Las Vegas predicted. 🙂

[UK_EaglesFan89]

7 hours ago, kentwo said:

Just seeing the defense be a little more complicated in what they show presnap should be exciting

Yeah I'm looking forward to a little bit of trickery and some presnap disguises to throw a QB off a little. Schwartz' defense was what you saw on the field. It got results and for the most part it was pretty good but it wasn't going to disguise anything or surprise you. 

[Bwestbrook36]

There is nothing a 5-10 veteran QB hasn't seen. It's not about disguising it's about getting the right players in the right positions to execute. Schwartz defense led the league or was close to top 5 in sacks and pressures for a couple of seasons. 

Jim Johnson blitzed alot and you could see it coming from a mile away most times but he had the players to execute the blitzes. When he played veteran QBs that could read his blitzes his defense got shredded, when they played rookies or guys that had trouble reading defenses he terrorized the hell out of them. 

 

[ManchesterEagle]

On 5/10/2021 at 9:56 PM, UK_EaglesFan89 said:

It's a tough one with Schwartz and I know we have discussed this on a number of occasions. What he managed to do with limited talent (in the secondary) was pretty impressive. But he absolutely had his flaws and one of those was that he just wasn't very creative. He didn't disguise a lot and he left his corners (who weren't very good) on an island. 

 

22 hours ago, kentwo said:

Just seeing the defense be a little more complicated in what they show presnap should be exciting. Schwartz was good and he will be successful for another team but his philosophy of not disgusting coverages and keeping the pass rush simple with limited movement was frustrating. His philosophy on turnovers was also questionable. But on the other hand his defense was solid for the most part. Other than last year he tried to set things up to cover the deficiencies at LB and cover corners. 
 

The incoming draft class has a lot of positional tweener types of players. Should fit well if Gannon is going to have Dline do a lot or shifts or stunts. Same with safeties and LBs mixing up coverage and box responsibilities. 

 

22 hours ago, Traveler Vic said:

I always had a much higher opinion of Schwartz than most of TATE. And when people said his scheme is predictable and boring..I responded GREAT!!! No good coordinator will show his moves without exposing them to opponents analysis. Saving some plays for the time, when you really need it, is a sign of experienced coordinator..Which Schwartz clearly is. 

Surprisingly some of the CBs who do not do well with man, because they are not fast enough, like Rasul Douglas,.... are superstars in Cover 2 defense. We have plenty of similar CBs who may flourish with Cover2, which I suspect Gannon will run and will do an adequate job.  

As far as more Talent..That's a Pipe dream..You can never have enough talent and you can never pay and retain enough talent in this league. You need some key cornerstone pieces like a good DE, CB, and or DT. You need a smart Safety, and at least 1 versatile LB. The rest of the pieces you have to jungle... so not to have any glaring holes in your defense. Eagles plugged a few holes in this draft and free agency..which is why I am optimistic..that baring any unforeseen injuries..we could do better than Las Vegas predicted. 🙂

I think Schwartz's scheme was more complex then people give him credit for. He had to simplify it in later years due to the inexperience of the players at his disposal (remember Jenkins asked him to simplify things)

Not sure what you mean on turnover philosophy? We got a bunch in 2017, the last time we had moderate talent in the back 7.

Douglas wasn't a fit in Schwartz's scheme - correct. But he didn't light it up at Carolina. Maybe his scheme will help, but you do need some talent and the Eagles have completely neglected the D in the draft for the past 6 years. We are going to pay for that. Gannon has his work cut out.

[kentwo]

3 hours ago, ManchesterEagle said:

 

 

I think Schwartz's scheme was more complex then people give him credit for. He had to simplify it in later years due to the inexperience of the players at his disposal (remember Jenkins asked him to simplify things)

Not sure what you mean on turnover philosophy? We got a bunch in 2017, the last time we had moderate talent in the back 7.

Douglas wasn't a fit in Schwartz's scheme - correct. But he didn't light it up at Carolina. Maybe his scheme will help, but you do need some talent and the Eagles have completely neglected the D in the draft for the past 6 years. We are going to pay for that. Gannon has his work cut out.

Schwartz always felt that turnovers will come naturally if you play solid defense. Which is true, but at the same time, certain DCs play an aggressive style that try to strip balls or attack the ball in the air. Pitt, Bal, Mia, are some teams that seem to always to working to strip the ball on every play. Jim was more pragmatic and felt that TOs weren't necessarily coachable and would come as a by product of game situations. Nothing wrong with that, but I like defenses that attack a bit more and use motion and deception to catch the eye of the offense and hopefully disrupt their progressions.

[Bwestbrook36]

3 hours ago, kentwo said:

Schwartz always felt that turnovers will come naturally if you play solid defense. Which is true, but at the same time, certain DCs play an aggressive style that try to strip balls or attack the ball in the air. Pitt, Bal, Mia, are some teams that seem to always to working to strip the ball on every play. Jim was more pragmatic and felt that TOs weren't necessarily coachable and would come as a by product of game situations. Nothing wrong with that, but I like defenses that attack a bit more and use motion and deception to catch the eye of the offense and hopefully disrupt their progressions.

Eagles had more forced fumbles then the Steelers last year .. the eagles were 3rd in sacks only 7 sacks behind Steelers for first. 

The only category the eagles struggled with was getting interceptions. When most of your secondary was hired form the grocery store you will have that problem. 

I didn't like Schwartz and his style but, I still can understand that he was pretty damn good especially for what he had. 

He isn't wrong though most coaches know turnovers come.in bunches. I'd rather them be in position to make the stop then go for the turnover and get absolutely burnt, most people I think would feel the same. 

Jalen Mills gets burnt on double moves because he is trying to jump the route for the interception and gets absolutely murdered on here for it because it leads to him getting burnt. 

[kentwo]

2 hours ago, Bwestbrook36 said:

Eagles had more forced fumbles then the Steelers last year .. the eagles were 3rd in sacks only 7 sacks behind Steelers for first. 

The only category the eagles struggled with was getting interceptions. When most of your secondary was hired form the grocery store you will have that problem. 

I didn't like Schwartz and his style but, I still can understand that he was pretty damn good especially for what he had. 

He isn't wrong though most coaches know turnovers come.in bunches. I'd rather them be in position to make the stop then go for the turnover and get absolutely burnt, most people I think would feel the same. 

Jalen Mills gets burnt on double moves because he is trying to jump the route for the interception and gets absolutely murdered on here for it because it leads to him getting burnt. 

The Steelers had 9 fumbles while the Eagles had 11. Not a large margin, still the Eagles were 28th in total takeaways while the Steelers were second. As a defense the Eagles have been below average in takeaways for the last three seasons. Is that on the players or coaches? Probably both. 

Schwartz was a pragmatic coach that taught his players to be in position. He admitted that his philosophy is to get guys in the right spot to make stops and prevent points. Which is all well and good, but it does not mean that it prevents the coaches from also trying to force turnovers. There are a lot of things that could be done, but those would have required a philosophical change. For example, Chip used to have players punch balls out everywhere they went. Gannon is planning to run Zimmer's defense which will use a lot of shifts to try and cause turnovers through deception and zones to allow help in coverage. Schwartz liked to do straight rush with very little stunts or other movement. He wasn't big on disguising coverages and blitzes. He kept things simple and expected the players to win individual battles. I don't see why the defense can't be both technically sound as well as aggressive when attacking the ball.  

I think based on the rancor towards Jim last year and his release from the team, most people were frustrated with his lack of production. I actually like Jim and hoped that he would stick around and Doug/Howie would get the boot. Still, I'm excited to see what a different, and perhaps more innovative style of defense will bring. 

As for Mills, him getting burnt was it because Schwartz coached him to bite on routes or was that his personal deficiencies? 

"Under Schwartz, the emphasis has been to never just go for turnovers because they’re worried mistakes will happen if they prioritize going for the football instead of, for instance, wrapping up a ball carrier."

""When you play a lot of man (coverage), your back is turned to the ball and it is hard getting those type of picks every play,” Darius Slay said after Monday’s loss. "When you see guys that play zone, or guys that do a lot, those are the guys that make a lot of picks. When you play a lot of man, it is tough."

[ManchesterEagle]

22 hours ago, kentwo said:

Schwartz always felt that turnovers will come naturally if you play solid defense. Which is true, but at the same time, certain DCs play an aggressive style that try to strip balls or attack the ball in the air. Pitt, Bal, Mia, are some teams that seem to always to working to strip the ball on every play. Jim was more pragmatic and felt that TOs weren't necessarily coachable and would come as a by product of game situations. Nothing wrong with that, but I like defenses that attack a bit more and use motion and deception to catch the eye of the offense and hopefully disrupt their progressions.

 

18 hours ago, Bwestbrook36 said:

Eagles had more forced fumbles then the Steelers last year .. the eagles were 3rd in sacks only 7 sacks behind Steelers for first. 

The only category the eagles struggled with was getting interceptions. When most of your secondary was hired form the grocery store you will have that problem. 

I didn't like Schwartz and his style but, I still can understand that he was pretty damn good especially for what he had. 

He isn't wrong though most coaches know turnovers come.in bunches. I'd rather them be in position to make the stop then go for the turnover and get absolutely burnt, most people I think would feel the same. 

Jalen Mills gets burnt on double moves because he is trying to jump the route for the interception and gets absolutely murdered on here for it because it leads to him getting burnt. 

When Schwartz had half decent talent, they produced plenty of turnovers. The problem with having Slay and a bunch of scrubs is you don't have any playmakers.

[Cheesteakitis]

So I don’t know much about this mike Hughes that the chiefs just traded for other then he was a first round pick not long ago... Howie seems to be sleeping on getting a cb.

[eggs]

So I was furious that we didn’t take a CB before the fourth round and I know we can’t fix in one season all the holes Howie has created and cap problems he kicked down the road. However, I am intrigued by the play we got out of Jacquet last year before he got injured and then had that terrible game against Dallas when he came back (maybe too early and trying to earn a roster spot) and I read a little about how he is a converted WR who is learning the position. I’d maybe bring in a a serviceable, reasonably priced (all we can afford anyway) vet and give Jacquet a shot in preseason to win the position as the tall dynamic outside cb. 

Read these articles:

https://theeagleswire.usatoday.com/2020/11/06/philadelphia-eagles-michael-jacquet-highest-graded-rookie/

 

https://www.bleedinggreennation.com/2020/6/6/21282504/eagles-michael-jacquet-rookie-profile-nfl-draft-2020-philadelphia-louisiana-lafayette-defensive-back

 

i don’t know, maybe it’s just wishful thinking, but he does have potential and a good attitude  

 

 

 

[UK_EaglesFan89]

3 hours ago, eggs said:

So I was furious that we didn’t take a CB before the fourth round and I know we can’t fix in one season all the holes Howie has created and cap problems he kicked down the road. However, I am intrigued by the play we got out of Jacquet last year before he got injured and then had that terrible game against Dallas when he came back (maybe too early and trying to earn a roster spot) and I read a little about how he is a converted WR who is learning the position. I’d maybe bring in a a serviceable, reasonably priced (all we can afford anyway) vet and give Jacquet a shot in preseason to win the position as the tall dynamic outside cb. 

I mean look I think we were all disappointed that we didn't draft a CB before the fourth. But if Howie would have traded up to get Horn or Surtain some fans would have been against that (myself included). In the second I think the logical pick of Campbell went off the board before we picked. So yeah it's frustrating and it's not what we wanted but I think they stuck to their board. This is a team in a major rebuild and they've got ammo next year to address needs. 

[kentwo]

We're saved at CB2!

https://www.philadelphiaeagles.com/news/eagles-sign-db-nate-meadors

[UK_EaglesFan89]

Just now, kentwo said:

We're saved at CB2!

https://www.philadelphiaeagles.com/news/eagles-sign-db-nate-meadors

Is he actually any good? Can't say I've heard of him and the fact he's referred to as a DB makes me think he's a depth guy at best. 

[pgcd3]

6 minutes ago, UK_EaglesFan89 said:

Is he actually any good? Can't say I've heard of him and the fact he's referred to as a DB makes me think he's a depth guy at best. 

He says he is.

 

[UK_EaglesFan89]

29 minutes ago, pgcd3 said:

He says he is.

 

I'm sure he does...

[ilikepargo]

I understand that we're cash-strapped.  Blame for that should be spread pretty widely through the organization.  But regardless, if this is all we do at CB, we'll be looking at another high draft position next Spring.

[Guest]

32 minutes ago, ilikepargo said:

I understand that we're cash-strapped.  Blame for that should be spread pretty widely through the organization.  But regardless, if this is all we do at CB, we'll be looking at another high draft position next Spring.

The tank is already in.  Use the Eagles #1 selection on a QB, and then still have two first rounders, mid 20's and 32.

[eggs]

55 minutes ago, downundermike said:

The tank is already in.  Use the Eagles #1 selection on a QB, and then still have two first rounders, mid 20's and 32.

Are you projecting the colts or miami to be #32?

[Bwestbrook36]

4 hours ago, ilikepargo said:

I understand that we're cash-strapped.  Blame for that should be spread pretty widely through the organization.  But regardless, if this is all we do at CB, we'll be looking at another high draft position next Spring.

Probably what they want, so good

[ManchesterEagle]

On 5/14/2021 at 6:22 PM, kentwo said:

We're saved at CB2!

https://www.philadelphiaeagles.com/news/eagles-sign-db-nate-meadors

 

On 5/14/2021 at 6:29 PM, pgcd3 said:

He says he is.

 

 

On 5/14/2021 at 6:23 PM, UK_EaglesFan89 said:

Is he actually any good? Can't say I've heard of him and the fact he's referred to as a DB makes me think he's a depth guy at best. 

I'm excited about this - Nate Meadors is one of the best talent evaluators out there (he said he definitely would have taken Metcalf and Jefferson over JJAW and Reagor).

If Nate Meadors says Nate Meadors is great- I'm sold. Troy Vincent mark 2 here we come!

[eggs]

Jacquet

[ManchesterEagle]

On 5/14/2021 at 4:30 AM, eggs said:

So I was furious that we didn’t take a CB before the fourth round and I know we can’t fix in one season all the holes Howie has created and cap problems he kicked down the road. However, I am intrigued by the play we got out of Jacquet last year before he got injured and then had that terrible game against Dallas when he came back (maybe too early and trying to earn a roster spot) and I read a little about how he is a converted WR who is learning the position. I’d maybe bring in a a serviceable, reasonably priced (all we can afford anyway) vet and give Jacquet a shot in preseason to win the position as the tall dynamic outside cb. 

Read these articles:

https://theeagleswire.usatoday.com/2020/11/06/philadelphia-eagles-michael-jacquet-highest-graded-rookie/

 

https://www.bleedinggreennation.com/2020/6/6/21282504/eagles-michael-jacquet-rookie-profile-nfl-draft-2020-philadelphia-louisiana-lafayette-defensive-back

 

i don’t know, maybe it’s just wishful thinking, but he does have potential and a good attitude  

 

 

 

 

On 5/14/2021 at 10:39 PM, ilikepargo said:

I understand that we're cash-strapped.  Blame for that should be spread pretty widely through the organization.  But regardless, if this is all we do at CB, we'll be looking at another high draft position next Spring.

Look Jacquet is interesting. But he’s a guy you want battling to make the roster, not pencilled in at CB2.

They need to bring in at least a serviceable veteran outside corner, otherwise it’s going to badly hurt the D and the O (Hurts was bad when he was trying to make up a big deficit, it’s important for him that the D can make some stops.