Howie's putting a whole lot of eggs in the Wentz basket

[jmac+djaxallday]

The Eagles have made a combined six first or second round picks in the last three draft classes and used all six of them on offensive players.  Of those six, three of them were receivers and five were skill position players.  Pretty much all of them were selected with the expectation that they would either back up or split time with vets already manning the position.  Hurts, like Dillard last season, will almost certainly sit barring injury.  

Now obviously there is more to the job than the first two rounds of the draft.  He invested significantly in the defense in free agency and over the final five rounds of the draft.  In 2017, he used his first three picks on defensive players.  So it's not like he's neglecting that side of the ball.

But when you think about the guys who have really made this team good over the last few years, it's easy to be alarmed at how many of them date back to Reid's tenure.  Brandon Graham, Fletcher Cox, Jason Kelce, and Jason Peters have largely all been all-pro caliber players.  Add Lane Johnson and Brandon Brooks to the mix (guys he should receive varying degrees of credit for bringing aboard) and you pretty much have a foundation of six dominant players on the line of scrimmage who've made everyone else's job a hell of a lot easier during this era of Eagles football.  I think it's easy to take them for granted.

Nigel Bradham and Malcolm Jenkins - each of whom played similarly critical roles over the last few years - have since left.  There were a lot of good players at those positions still on the board when the Eagles were picking. 

Ending up with Davion Taylor and K'von Wallace isn't the worst thing.  Both can play and should contribute immediately.  

They were picked where they were for a reason, though, and I've increasingly gotten the sense that Howie wants to cut corners at certain positions and stash premium talent in reserve where he thinks it has more value.  The analytics tell him not to draft safety's and lb's early so he doesn't.  Doesn't matter if you have a team of vets built to win now.  Doesn't matter if it could be their last run, or if the window is closing.  Guys like him will always make what they deem to be the prudent decision long-term.

I just wonder if he's overthinking it, and I wish we could be more like the Ravens and simply draft the best players available.  Drafting his way has produced mixed results, at best.        

              

[EaglesfanfromND]

I don't get the thread title....

[UK_EaglesFan89]

I don't really understand this. I mean sure they have invested a lot but that's in part been because they keep getting it wrong. 

If we look back they brought in Wallace to replace Smith. Wallace then broke his leg and missed the full season. The lack of resilience really then hurt us. 

We then brought in DeSean to replace Wallace and he went down for the season. Again a lack of resilience hurt us. 

In terms of the draft, we drafted JJAW last year and that looked a disaster last year. We drafted our future LT so let's see how that plays out. A lot of the other players we've drafted like Pumphrey and Hollins and Gibson are no longer here. 

They've invested a lot in the offense because they keep getting it wrong. This year they've brought in a number of options so hopefully a few of these will stick. 

[Infam]

I agree. But when you think of players like Malik Jackson, who never got hurt and miss the season I for one can't help but feel they are really unlucky.

[UK_EaglesFan89]

40 minutes ago, Infam said:

I agree. But when you think of players like Malik Jackson, who never got hurt and miss the season I for one can't help but feel they are really unlucky.

Oh they have been really unlucky with injuries (well partly unlucky and partly their risk based decisions with some players). I mean players like Sproles had never missed a game and then in back to back years suffers season ending injuries. Losing Malik Jackson and Jernigan and then Ridgeway? I mean that's just so unlucky.

[JohnB]

Yes, a lot has been invested in offensive skill positions, which could be a mistake in itself. When I look back at some of the most successful teams in history, they mostly had incredible trench players on both sides of the ball, but specifically the offense. Wentz seems to have the ability to be up there with the best of them, but he needs to be protected. Our line when we won the Super Bowl was a great one. Some of those players are still here but they're all a bit older now. 

[ManchesterEagle]

I’m going to do a separate thread on this, which isn’t about Wentz.

The Front office has largely focused on the offense over the last few years.

The Eagles have only used 2 top 96 picks on the D in the past 5 years. That’s bad.

Slay and Hargrave are both welcome additions, but my concern is that we have a real lack of young talent on the D.

[UK_EaglesFan89]

2 minutes ago, ManchesterEagle said:

The Front office has largely focused on the offense over the last few years.

That's because they keep getting it wrong. 

[time2rock]

42 minutes ago, UK_EaglesFan89 said:

Oh they have been really unlucky with injuries (well partly unlucky and partly their risk based decisions with some players). I mean players like Sproles had never missed a game and then in back to back years suffers season ending injuries. Losing Malik Jackson and Jernigan and then Ridgeway? I mean that's just so unlucky.

Sproles was also 35 and 36 in those back-to-back years.  Father time caught up with him.  Bringing him back was part of those risk based decisions you mentioned that backfired.  

[UK_EaglesFan89]

Just now, time2rock said:

Sproles was also 35 and 36 in those back-to-back years.  Father time caught up with him.  Bringing him back was part of those risk based decisions you mentioned that backfired.  

Oh I agree bringing him back twice was a risk and I didn't agree with it, certainly not the second time. 

[birdman#12]

In what most philly fans and media considered a bad year, last year the eagles finished 9th on offense and 13th on defense in the Aikman ratings. 

That with all the injuries......I'm not going to rehash the injuries one by one, but there was no team that had to deal with so many.

Which tells us a couple things: 

1) The eagles have pretty dam good depth.  

2) The coaching staff did a really good job having guys ready and not allowing them to throw in the towel.

3) The talent the eagles have coming off IR is has been discounted by fans and media.

Also, the eagles went into the offseason with needs at WR, CB, DT, S, LB.

Those needs have been filled with established, talented guys thru trades, free agency. Others with talented guys in the draft.  Team speed has been increased and average age reduced.  And the eagles have the 3rd most cap space remaining going into the 2nd phase of free agency.  And they have some trade capital.....

Roseman isn't done with this roster.......

 

[jmac+djaxallday]

8 hours ago, UK_EaglesFan89 said:

I don't really understand this. I mean sure they have invested a lot but that's in part been because they keep getting it wrong. 

If we look back they brought in Wallace to replace Smith. Wallace then broke his leg and missed the full season. The lack of resilience really then hurt us. 

We then brought in DeSean to replace Wallace and he went down for the season. Again a lack of resilience hurt us. 

In terms of the draft, we drafted JJAW last year and that looked a disaster last year. We drafted our future LT so let's see how that plays out. A lot of the other players we've drafted like Pumphrey and Hollins and Gibson are no longer here. 

They've invested a lot in the offense because they keep getting it wrong. This year they've brought in a number of options so hopefully a few of these will stick. 

Have they really gotten it wrong, though?  Sanders looks like a home run.  Goedert was definitely a home run.  DeSean looked like a home run until he stubbornly mismanaged a 4-6 week injury.  It remains to be seen what Alshon has left to the tank and it's too early to write off Arcega-Whiteside.  That's in addition to Zach Ertz and the emerging Greg Ward.  

This idea that the Eagles are perilously thin at the skill positions is a misconception perpetuated by media and fantasy football types, and it's one that Howie seems to have bought into.  Maybe they're not as dynamic as say, the Chiefs, but they have more than enough when coupled with arguably the best offensive line in football and an extremely gifted QB entering his fifth season.  We needed to invest in defense - not only for right now, but also so we can eventually replace guys like Graham and Cox when it's time.

I'm not saying we couldn't have used a WR.  If a sure-fire stud like Jeudy or Ceedee Lamb is there and you want to trade up, then fine.  I'm saying it wasn't such a need as to decide you're drafting a WR no matter what.  That's how mistakes get made.  

I like Reagor.  He's an enticing prospect.  But is he meaningfully better, at the current moment, than what we already have?  Greg Ward caught 17 balls for 175 yards over the final three games and it seems like he's being pushed out.  Reagor struggled to produce consistently in college.  We needed a real upgrade and not just another dude.  Right now, Reagor is just another dude.

 

[Infam]

6 hours ago, birdman#12 said:

1) The eagles have pretty dam good depth.  

2) The coaching staff did a really good job having guys ready and not allowing them to throw in the towel.

3) The talent the eagles have coming off IR is has been discounted by fans and media.

Sure, and that is part of it. But besides coaching I believe it is the strength of our locker room that made them gather and overcome the odds.

Remains to be seen if it remains that way without Jenkins, Peters and to a degree even Bradham. Thank god we at least kept Graham.

[birdman#12]

1 hour ago, Infam said:

Sure, and that is part of it. But besides coaching I believe it is the strength of our locker room that made them gather and overcome the odds.

Remains to be seen if it remains that way without Jenkins, Peters and to a degree even Bradham. Thank god we at least kept Graham.

I agree that they lost quite a bit of leadership.....but guys like Kelce, Cox, McLeod, Ertz it think still have quite a bit of influence. Hopefully, that culture continues with so many new guys...

[UK_EaglesFan89]

2 hours ago, jmac+djaxallday said:

Have they really gotten it wrong, though?  Sanders looks like a home run.  Goedert was definitely a home run.  DeSean looked like a home run until he stubbornly mismanaged a 4-6 week injury.  It remains to be seen what Alshon has left to the tank and it's too early to write off Arcega-Whiteside.  That's in addition to Zach Ertz and the emerging Greg Ward.  

It took them how long to get Ward involved?

JJAW looks like a bad pick and to be honest I'm not going to declare the Goedert pick a rip rawing success either. He's a really really good TE of that there's no doubt but have we truly seen the hoped pay off? I don't think we have in terms of that Ertz Goedert tandem. 

Alshon was given a contract last year, what a mistake that looks. Desean was brought back right at the end of his career. 

If we have so many weapons why did our offense stutter and falter so much last year?

[Infam]

42 minutes ago, UK_EaglesFan89 said:

It took them how long to get Ward involved?

Yes, one of the few weaknesses of our coaches was to actually give some guys a shot..

Quote

JJAW looks like a bad pick and to be honest I'm not going to declare the Goedert pick a rip rawing success either. He's a really really good TE of that there's no doubt but have we truly seen the hoped pay off? I don't think we have in terms of that Ertz Goedert tandem. 

JJaw had a bad rookie season. As with WRs that is the norm, not the exception. Doesn't mean he won't be good.

Goedert can flat out ball, don't be ridiculous.

Quote

Alshon was given a contract last year, what a mistake that looks. Desean was brought back right at the end of his career. 

If we have so many weapons why did our offense stutter and falter so much last year?

That was a big mistake. DJax wasn't. We still got it done 'til Wentz went down, didn't we?

[Abracadabra]

What other basket should he put the eggs in? That's a 100 million dollar basket. You're damn right he's putting all the eggs in it.

[bobokd1]

We need to give JJAW some time. I think the guy who was holding the Eagles back at the WR position was stone hands Agholar. He dropped game changing catches. His contract and 1st rd selection dictated him having to start. He had talent and I will never forget his Super Bowl run with us. His drops were in such crucial times, they were magnified. JJAW dropped a DET game pass but he doesn't really have a history of drops like Aggs. Give JJAW his contract length of time and then lets judge him. I think the Eagles will be fine. I like the draft, the FA and trade season isn't over. Whatever you may think of Howie during draft season, he crushes FA and trades. He won us a Super Bowl. In my lifetime, I will be forever grateful. That Super Bowl win gave him 20 years of leeway to me. Was the best time of my life. Our team just won the division with historic injuries crushing our team since the Super Bowl year. We will be ok. If we stayed even remotely healthy, we would have looked even better. We needed speed at WR and we got it. The UDFA look really good, I like Killins and Warren look good, and I like the Dante Olson pick up as well. I trust the Eagles organization, it is one of the best run ones in the NFL. I know we need to discuss the draft and team, but we need a present and future outlook just like the GMs do. Let's give these rookies a chance and lets cheer them all on, fly eagles fly.

[UK_EaglesFan89]

8 hours ago, Infam said:

Goedert can flat out ball, don't be ridiculous.

My point is we've hardly seen that tandem be put in situations to flat out dominate though. Now yes that's on the coaches but also it's on the strategy of this organisation to draft him.

[Infam]

5 hours ago, bobokd1 said:

We need to give JJAW some time. I think the guy who was holding the Eagles back at the WR position was stone hands Agholar. He dropped game changing catches. His contract and 1st rd selection dictated him having to start. He had talent and I will never forget his Super Bowl run with us. His drops were in such crucial times, they were magnified. JJAW dropped a DET game pass but he doesn't really have a history of drops like Aggs. Give JJAW his contract length of time and then lets judge him. I think the Eagles will be fine. I like the draft, the FA and trade season isn't over. Whatever you may think of Howie during draft season, he crushes FA and trades. He won us a Super Bowl. In my lifetime, I will be forever grateful. That Super Bowl win gave him 20 years of leeway to me. Was the best time of my life. Our team just won the division with historic injuries crushing our team since the Super Bowl year. We will be ok. If we stayed even remotely healthy, we would have looked even better. We needed speed at WR and we got it. The UDFA look really good, I like Killins and Warren look good, and I like the Dante Olson pick up as well. I trust the Eagles organization, it is one of the best run ones in the NFL. I know we need to discuss the draft and team, but we need a present and future outlook just like the GMs do. Let's give these rookies a chance and lets cheer them all on, fly eagles fly.

Agholor was a slot WR, and that was the problem. When he was in the slot he did fine, on the outside he was inconsistent at best and painful to watch at times.

He is one of the reasons I never wanted a pure slot in the first.

[birdman#12]

13 hours ago, UK_EaglesFan89 said:

It took them how long to get Ward involved?

JJAW looks like a bad pick and to be honest I'm not going to declare the Goedert pick a rip rawing success either. He's a really really good TE of that there's no doubt but have we truly seen the hoped pay off? I don't think we have in terms of that Ertz Goedert tandem. 

Alshon was given a contract last year, what a mistake that looks. Desean was brought back right at the end of his career. 

If we have so many weapons why did our offense stutter and falter so much last year?

Goedert would be starting for about 20 teams if he wasn't on the eagles.....and he's a better all-around TE than Ertz.  He just doesn't get the chances right now....but yes, that was a very good draft success.

The weren't as bad on offense as everyone makes out.....they lost their 3 starting WR, Hollins was given a chance after the injury and never was the same.  JAWW wasn't ready for a full time role and the rest of the WR were practice squad players.  Howard was the leading RB when he got hurt and that lasted longer than expected.  

But the biggest reason was that Wentz still wasn't himself......he wasn't going thru his progressions, and he had lost confidence in his ability to throw into tight windows...couple that with not having familiarity with the replacement receivers and he was double clutching or holding the ball too long. He got better as the year went on and was able to get them thru the stretch run and into the playoffs.   The finished 9th in the Aikman ratings on offense........so again, not nearly as bad as most fans think they were.

JJAW, typically, is being labeled a bust after one f------ year.....ridiculous.  He was drafted to fill a role, wasn't targeted much and that has alot to do with what I said earlier. 

How many teams do you know who EVER went to the playoffs with a rookie, 3 practice squad players and sheldon gibson??  And yet, if Wentz doesn''t get hurt vs Seattle, they probably win that game.  So how bad were they?

See the problem with most fans is that they like to look at things simply and say injuries are just an excuse.  But like I've always said, that if injuries shouldn't matter, then neither should talent.  But we know that's not true.  

The eagles will be dynamic on offense this year......if injuries don't side track it.  They have speed and versatility all over the offense.....Wentz should be close to what he was in 2017 as he worked out a ton of kinks late last year. 

[UK_EaglesFan89]

22 minutes ago, birdman#12 said:

The eagles will be dynamic on offense this year......if injuries don't side track it.  They have speed and versatility all over the offense.....Wentz should be close to what he was in 2017 as he worked out a ton of kinks late last year. 

We shall see. We have added speed but that will only matter if those players end up on the roster. Hightower, Watkins and Goodwin are no locks to make this roster so we will have to wait and see. 

[birdman#12]

Just now, UK_EaglesFan89 said:

We shall see. We have added speed but that will only matter if those players end up on the roster. Hightower, Watkins and Goodwin are no locks to make this roster so we will have to wait and see. 

ONE guy with deep speed who can catch could make a big difference in this offense......Jackson, Reagor, Goodwin all can do that......

[UK_EaglesFan89]

29 minutes ago, birdman#12 said:

ONE guy with deep speed who can catch could make a big difference in this offense......Jackson, Reagor, Goodwin all can do that......

I don't deny that but Goodwin has injury issues and Desean does miss games too. There's no guarantee Goodwin makes the roster, in fact I think it is slightly less than 50%.

[birdman#12]

37 minutes ago, UK_EaglesFan89 said:

I don't deny that but Goodwin has injury issues and Desean does miss games too. There's no guarantee Goodwin makes the roster, in fact I think it is slightly less than 50%.

If Goodwin is healthy, he going to make the roster.

And most receivers get injured......very few play 16 games year after year.  Jackson never missed a whole season like last year and that was only because he mismanaged that injury.

There's a reason why NFL teams have medical staffs, training staff, rehab facilities and protocols.....because players get hurt.  And nobody can predict injuries. Metcalf in Seattle missed almost half his games in college due to injury, but he has been healthy in the pros.  Sometimes, it's just circumstantial.....

What matters is that the eagle have 6-7 reliable WRs......who can rotate in and out, catch the ball and contribute.  KC didn't have any WR come near 1,000 yards, but they had 5 dependable fast receivers, only one of which played all 16 games.

If Wentz gets back to spreading the ball around, these WRs will be very effective.