1 hour ago, Swoop said:

AJ wasnt there in the playoff game. The rest of the team was, mostly. For that specific game he still had more than enough help and did nothing. That still doesn't answer his point as to why Hurts was co-lead in the biggest regular season collapse we've ever seen. What are the excuses for the other 17 games? What's the excuse for turning the ball over more than almost everyone? 

It's funny you bring up Wentz, because their career trajectory is similar in ways. I wonder though, how Hurts would look with Dorial Green-Beckham, Paul Turner, Bryce Treggs, etc. We were given a look at that this past Sunday and like Wentz at the end of his Eagles career, it was ugly.

I keep seeing every excuse in the book for Hurts: bad field, injuries, coaching, new offense, etc. Cousins is in a brand new offense, in a brand new city, coming off of a major injury and is 36 years old. He seems to be doing just fine with receivers that aren't exactly elite himself. Andy Dalton is a washed up has been and has taken one of the worst rosters in football and played pretty well all things considered. How much work did he get in camp with the 1s?

Like I said before, him playing sub par this past Sunday with the big 3 out and losing would be okay. The guy looked like he didnt belong on the field. Brown, Smith, Goedert, etc have been here for a while now. They've all been *relatively* healthy. He's had a good running game.

Yet here we are on year five and he's still scared in the pocket. Still rolls to his right. Still throws the ball out of bounds. Still refuses to use the middle of the field. Still sits on the bench alone. Still has a fumbling problem. The red flags are still there. When is the hand holding going to stop?

Killer points on cousins and dalton

9 minutes ago, Shalodeep said:

Killer points on cousins and dalton

Or how about first round bust Justin Fields? Their defense has played a large part, but he's played well and the offense has looked solid the last two weeks. No real fire power in that new system he's learning, is there?

10 hours ago, brkmsn said:

It's a lot like Wentz. 

There’s your first baby step to enlightenment.  

Two top 15 receivers. Top 10 TE. Top 3 OL. Top 3 RB.

Guys, Hurts played on a slippery field. It's not his fault he threw it into triple coverage.

3 hours ago, Swoop said:

AJ wasnt there in the playoff game. The rest of the team was, mostly. For that specific game he still had more than enough help and did nothing. That still doesn't answer his point as to why Hurts was co-lead in the biggest regular season collapse we've ever seen. What are the excuses for the other 17 games? What's the excuse for turning the ball over more than almost everyone? 

It's funny you bring up Wentz, because their career trajectory is similar in ways. I wonder though, how Hurts would look with Dorial Green-Beckham, Paul Turner, Bryce Treggs, etc. We were given a look at that this past Sunday and like Wentz at the end of his Eagles career, it was ugly.

I keep seeing every excuse in the book for Hurts: bad field, injuries, coaching, new offense, etc. Cousins is in a brand new offense, in a brand new city, coming off of a major injury and is 36 years old. He seems to be doing just fine with receivers that aren't exactly elite himself. Andy Dalton is a washed up has been and has taken one of the worst rosters in football and played pretty well all things considered. How much work did he get in camp with the 1s?

Like I said before, him playing sub par this past Sunday with the big 3 out and losing would be okay. The guy looked like he didnt belong on the field. Brown, Smith, Goedert, etc have been here for a while now. They've all been *relatively* healthy. He's had a good running game.

Yet here we are on year five and he's still scared in the pocket. Still rolls to his right. Still throws the ball out of bounds. Still refuses to use the middle of the field. Still sits on the bench alone. Still has a fumbling problem. The red flags are still there. When is the hand holding going to stop?

Inconvenient truths.

15 minutes ago, Swoop said:

Two top 15 receivers. Top 10 TE. Top 3 OL. Top 3 RB.

Guys, Hurts played on a slippery field. It's not his fault he threw it into triple coverage.

The excuses being made for him are exhausting.  If he has a good game, those of us that are critical are expected to backtrack every negative word or thought.  But when he doesn’t play well, the apologists make up even more excuses for the guy. 

I know Hurts has looked bad at times but i account some of that to the fact that right now he and probably most of the team has very little confidence in the defense whether they want to admit it or not. So he is probably trying too hard to score on every drive and taking too many risks.

2 minutes ago, Shalodeep said:

 

9 hours ago, Shalodeep said:

I took a year off of posting on here because I was spending too much time on here, and i was using it to procrastinate when i didnt want to get paperwork done at work. Im not really coming out of the woodwork because he is struggling. When I came back i stated and still stand behind Jalen is between the 8-12 range of qb when everyone is healthy. 

Both things can be true. He can be about the 10th best qb in the league when everyone is healthy, and he can have a lot of flaws. The problem I'm having is thay EVERY offense looks exactly the same with Jalen and it's coming down to one thing...the OCs may change, but Jalen isn't. His game isn't developing at all. He goes through progressions slowly, he's heavy reliant on two people and looks completely lost without them which makes me believe he isn't learning the systems at all cause f it, he always has brown and Smith out there anyway.  The league has caught up to his legs and showed us last year they can beat us if all they need to do is stop Smith and brown.  So if his legs aren't the threat they were in 02, and a team can force him to have to scan the field, its almost a guarantee 2 turnovers a game.  

I feel there are two camps right now. Your camp of if the turnovers go away, he is fine and this is completely overblown, and my camp that is seeing fundamental breakdowns that go well beyond unfortunate events like a barkley drop and a bad snap from a new center

The way I see it, there are two camps: One camp that has limited or no patience and wants to see change at the first sign of negative play and the other that understands QBs take years to mature and likely will go through good and bad stretches during the maturation process. 

At this time, there's nothing I'm going to say to sway camp one. Most of them have never really been behind Jalen as our starting QB, predicted he would fail, and/or believed he wasn't an NFL QB. Many of them favor pretty passing stats over winning games (see the negative feedback after each win over the last 3 seasons) and have never really been impressed with a QB that only passes for just over 20 TDs a season. Honestly to me, it doesn't matter where Jalen "ranks" in subjective QB lists. I just want the team to win. I believe they can win with Jalen. I believe he can make plays that help us win games and have a winning record. I also believe he has flaws and can make bad plays that contribute to losses. I feel the same way about all the other starting QBs in the NFL. But Hurts is on my team and we won't be trading for any of the QBs you or the others think are currently better. Trevor Lawrence was supposedly the most sure thing coming out of college since Andrew Luck and he has yet to play a playoff game, has more career INTs and a lower career passer rating than Hurts. So finding the next guy is even less certain than continuity with a QB that people like you have ranked in the upper 1/3 of NFL starting QBs. 

So until Jalen does play better again, camp one has the "high ground" in discussions. Unfortunately, they don't really have any immediate solution. For me, I saw us win a Super Bowl with a backup QB (not even a top 30 guy) because we had a very good team full of role players that did their jobs --- including a tremendous catch (and receiving game) from an otherwise insignificant NFL RB. So while people finger point and nitpick Jalen every week, I'll keep hoping this group of players comes together like that roster in 2017. We are currently 2-2 on a team that could be 0-4 or 4-0 at this point. There's only one 4-0 team currently in the NFC and so 2-2 is far from out of the playoff picture and there's a lot of football left to play. 

6 minutes ago, brkmsn said:

The way I see it, there are two camps: One camp that has limited or no patience and wants to see change at the first sign of negative play and the other that understands QBs take years to mature and likely will go through good and bad stretches during the maturation process. 

At this time, there's nothing I'm going to say to sway camp one. Most of them have never really been behind Jalen as our starting QB, predicted he would fail, and/or believed he wasn't an NFL QB. Many of them favor pretty passing stats over winning games (see the negative feedback after each win over the last 3 seasons) and have never really been impressed with a QB that only passes for just over 20 TDs a season. Honestly to me, it doesn't matter where Jalen "ranks" in subjective QB lists. I just want the team to win. I believe they can win with Jalen. I believe he can make plays that help us win games and have a winning record. I also believe he has flaws and can make bad plays that contribute to losses. I feel the same way about all the other starting QBs in the NFL. But Hurts is on my team and we won't be trading for any of the QBs you or the others think are currently better. Trevor Lawrence was supposedly the most sure thing coming out of college since Andrew Luck and he has yet to play a playoff game, has more career INTs and a lower career passer rating than Hurts. So finding the next guy is even less certain than continuity with a QB that people like you have ranked in the upper 1/3 of NFL starting QBs. 

So until Jalen does play better again, camp one has the "high ground" in discussions. Unfortunately, they don't really have any immediate solution. For me, I saw us win a Super Bowl with a backup QB (not even a top 30 guy) because we had a very good team full of role players that did their jobs --- including a tremendous catch (and receiving game) from an otherwise insignificant NFL RB. So while people finger point and nitpick Jalen every week, I'll keep hoping this group of players comes together like that roster in 2017. We are currently 2-2 on a team that could be 0-4 or 4-0 at this point. There's only one 4-0 team currently in the NFC and so 2-2 is far from out of the playoff picture and there's a lot of football left to play. 

I posted a few things above your post that show that 2022 seems to be the outlier and not a showing of progress with both his turnovers worthy plays and time to throw have both shot back up. I can post the breakdown for everyone. It shows Jalen ignoring basic route concepts consistently within this scheme that are fundamental for any qb to succeed. He also discusses the obvious physical breakdown Jalen has suffered at a young age with his explosiveness while running deteriorating at 25-26 years old. The guy had defended Jalen quite a bit in the past prior as well. I posted some of the graphics earlier from it

 

2 hours ago, Shalodeep said:

I posted a few things above your post that show that 2022 seems to be the outlier and not a showing of progress with both his turnovers worthy plays and time to throw have both shot back up. I can post the breakdown for everyone. It shows Jalen ignoring basic route concepts consistently within this scheme that are fundamental for any qb to succeed. He also discusses the obvious physical breakdown Jalen has suffered at a young age with his explosiveness while running deteriorating at 25-26 years old. The guy had defended Jalen quite a bit in the past prior as well. I posted some of the graphics earlier from it

His turnover worthy plays were pretty much the same in 2022 and 2023 --- just a 0.4 difference. The problem with turnover worthy plays is that it requires the defense to make it into a turnover. In 2022, Hurts had better luck with them than in 2023, The law of averages will always equal things out over a long span. The problem with turnover worthy plays through 4 games is the sample is too small to compare it to an entire season. So get back to me after the season if Hurts doesn't bring that 6.7% way down, which is what I expect. You said earlier, "its almost a guarantee 2 turnovers a game."

I'd bet the ranch that won't happen. He won't end the season with 34 turnovers. I expect he'll still have turnovers, just like all the other QBs, but expecting that rate to continue is comical. In the end turnover worthy plays are less important than actual turnovers. When it comes to INTs, I expect he'll finish the season with 13. Now fumbles are a little harder to gauge. If you took the amount of fumbles he had in his rookie year, the ratio per snap would have projected to around 27 fumbles for the entire season, if I remember correctly. He took much better care of the ball after that. Still, QBs take statistical credit for bad snaps and I expect we'll have a couple more of those  and you can't always blame the QB for getting the ball stripped while attempting to pass (obviously I blame Hurts for the one last week as he needs to understand that guy that just slipped off him had to be right there). But if I had to predict , I'd expect 3 more fumbles lost in the final 13 games. Hopefully the ball bounces our way on fumbles for a while since it really hasn't to date this season (law of averages). 

20 minutes ago, brkmsn said:

His turnover worthy plays were pretty much the same in 2022 and 2023 --- just a 0.4 difference. The problem with turnover worthy plays is that it requires the defense to make it into a turnover. In 2022, Hurts had better luck with them than in 2023, The law of averages will always equal things out over a long span. The problem with turnover worthy plays through 4 games is the sample is too small to compare it to an entire season. So get back to me after the season if Hurts doesn't bring that 6.7% way down, which is what I expect. You said earlier, "its almost a guarantee 2 turnovers a game."

I'd bet the ranch that won't happen. He won't end the season with 34 turnovers. I expect he'll still have turnovers, just like all the other QBs, but expecting that rate to continue is comical. In the end turnover worthy plays are less important than actual turnovers. When it comes to INTs, I expect he'll finish the season with 13. Now fumbles are a little harder to gauge. If you took the amount of fumbles he had in his rookie, the ratio per snap would have projected to around 27 fumbles for the entire season, if I remember correctly. He took much better care of the ball after that. Still, QBs take statistical credit for bad snaps and I expect we'll have a couple more of those  and you can't always blame the QB for getting the ball stripped while attempting to pass (obviously I blame Hurts for the one last week as he needs to understand that guy that just slipped off him had to be right there). But if I had to predict , I'd expect 3 more fumbles lost in the final 13 games. Hopefully the ball bounces our way on fumbles for a while since it really hasn't to date this season (law of averages). 

So 19 turnovers this season which would of put him 5th in turnovers last year and he was 4th with 20. Seems pretty consistent 🤔 so you are defending him by estimating him ending the season top 5 in turnovers again. Maybe our standard for 50+ million dollar franchise qb is different 

Ball control and time control jalen is what made him good. Always get positive yards and keep us in 3rd and short situations. He fell in love with the big play and his legs are failing him. He wants to get back to form? Learn the fundamentals of the routine play. Highlight reels rarely win superbowls

I think the big downgrade in his explosiveness and speed has played a huge factor. But Siriani is still coaching him as if he still has it. I think thats on coaching not Hurts.

30 minutes ago, Shalodeep said:

So 19 turnovers this season which would of put him 5th in turnovers last year and he was 4th with 20. Seems pretty consistent 🤔 so you are defending him by estimating him ending the season top 5 in turnovers again. Maybe our standard for 50+ million dollar franchise qb is different 

We can't do anything about the first 4 games. But at the end of the year, those totals will be added to the rest of his stats for the season. So, yeah, after a shaky start protecting the ball, I expect him to be a little better the rest of the way. He'll have a few games with no turnovers and probably at least one more with more than 1. 

You act like at this point in his career (positive) change can't happen. That's absurd. Before this season, Josh Allen had 102 (24 lost fumbles) turnovers in 94 career games played. This season he has 0 INTs and 1 fumble lost out of 3 fumbles through 4 games. It's probably his best start to a season. It's also his 7th season. Hurts has played, to date, 66 games, and has 52 turnovers (including 14 fumbles lost). 

As I mentioned in another post, turnovers were up last year for many of the big name QBs. I believe it's because of better DB play. For years QBs got away with throwing bad passes big completions because DBs wouldn't look back for the ball. That trend may have changed last year and QBs that like to throw those types of passes (Hurts, Wentz, Mahomes, Allen, etc... ) need to adjust their decision making --- because now a higher percentage of those risky throws are becoming turnovers. The early trend this season is to get rid of the ball quickly and to expose soft coverage. A few surprising QBs have had early success but we probably shouldn't draw conclusions based entirely off September games. 

 

9 minutes ago, opa-opa said:

I think the big downgrade in his explosiveness and speed has played a huge factor. But Siriani is still coaching him as if he still has it. I think thats on coaching not Hurts.

lol @ the perception he can't run anymore. 

He has still posted a faster speed than Lamar Jackson to date this season. Explain that ...

Josh Allen turns the ball over too much as well, but Josh Allen has also never had:

- Two top 15(ish) receivers

- A top 10 Tight End

- A top 3 OL

- A strong running game

Consistently, all at the same time. 

Let's stop sweeping the fact that Hurts has a stacked offense around him under the rug.

While the games played are different, here are the totals for the regular season:

Allen has 27,234 total yards and 229 TDs in 98 games.

Hurts has 15,360 total yards with 114 TDs in 66 games.

I'll even remove the two best seasons of Allen's career and he still has 1,400 more yards and 29 more TDs. With no where near the offensive talent around him.

Stop making the comparison, because there is none.

 

8 hours ago, brkmsn said:

lol @ the perception he can't run anymore. 

He has still posted a faster speed than Lamar Jackson to date this season. Explain that ...

If you cant see the difference in his runs now vs 22, that's on you 

8 hours ago, brkmsn said:

We can't do anything about the first 4 games. But at the end of the year, those totals will be added to the rest of his stats for the season. So, yeah, after a shaky start protecting the ball, I expect him to be a little better the rest of the way. He'll have a few games with no turnovers and probably at least one more with more than 1. 

You act like at this point in his career (positive) change can't happen. That's absurd. Before this season, Josh Allen had 102 (24 lost fumbles) turnovers in 94 career games played. This season he has 0 INTs and 1 fumble lost out of 3 fumbles through 4 games. It's probably his best start to a season. It's also his 7th season. Hurts has played, to date, 66 games, and has 52 turnovers (including 14 fumbles lost). 

As I mentioned in another post, turnovers were up last year for many of the big name QBs. I believe it's because of better DB play. For years QBs got away with throwing bad passes big completions because DBs wouldn't look back for the ball. That trend may have changed last year and QBs that like to throw those types of passes (Hurts, Wentz, Mahomes, Allen, etc... ) need to adjust their decision making --- because now a higher percentage of those risky throws are becoming turnovers. The early trend this season is to get rid of the ball quickly and to expose soft coverage. A few surprising QBs have had early success but we probably shouldn't draw conclusions based entirely off September games. 

 

If he was as good as allen was by year 5, id probably be far more comfortable taking the good with the bad....he isn't. Allen's average year is a career year/mvp like year for most other qbs. He literally is the qb we all made as kids on madden. I'd pick another qb to try to compare with,  but I'm guessing the others who turn the ball over at jalens rate you don't want to bring up because they aren't starting anymore 

4 hours ago, Shalodeep said:

If you cant see the difference in his runs now vs 22, that's on you 

Some times he looks slower than the lineman blocking for him and other times like he could run for 1st downs all day. Truly concerning 

When are we getting a real Franchise QB? So frustrating that twice in a row we have had regressing QBs when we thought we found the guy.

1 hour ago, wrestlevessel said:

When are we getting a real Franchise QB? So frustrating that twice in a row we have had regressing QBs when we thought we found the guy.

Tbf, both times it looked like a good move overall when it was made. The difference between this time and the last is the no trade clause and the way it's structured makes it painful extremely early in the contract to bail out on it if we had to. For the next few years, he is definitely under center or on the bench no matter what.