1 minute ago, HazletonEagle said:

I dont get it.... We can buy a 4 zone system for like 5,000 dollars. How the hell is installation so much?

It's a brand new installation, not a replacement.  Permits, new electric, mounting.  Do you have drywall?  Would not recommend if you have plaster unless you have another contractor that specializes in that.  Not trying to talk you out of it, but I worked as a coordinator in that field for years and the couple of whole house installations that we did, the consumer was not happy.

Sometimes, you are better off just getting a replacement for what you have.  As I said before, these units are great, but I would put either in a sun room, finished attic or basement -addition that isn't connected to the whole house heat/ac.

2 minutes ago, HazletonEagle said:

I dont get it.... We can buy a 4 zone system for like 5,000 dollars. How the hell is installation so much?

Not sure what kind of electrical work would be required or if you have room on your existing panel but yeah that seems really steep.  We are going to finish our upstairs at some point but need HVAC up there and were quoted like 3.5k for a mini-split a few years ago.  Granted we'd have to probably run another panel up for electric which can get expensive, but still...they are trying to rip you off.

When you're replacing an AC unit and furnace in a home that already has central air, it's less involved than installing a mini-split.  Plus there is a more competitive market of HVAC companies doing those type of replacements than mini-splits.  There are a lot of variables involved in installing ductless so I think companies charge a higher rate because they don't really know how long or involved it will end up being.  I'd like to get one for our condo - luckily we know people who both install and my uncle works for a company that can get me the unit at cost.  We will probably trade a week or two at the condo for the installation. 

 

3 minutes ago, DiPros said:

It's a brand new installation, not a replacement.  Permits, new electric, mounting.  Do you have drywall?  Would not recommend if you have plaster unless you have another contractor that specializes in that.  Not trying to talk you out of it, but I worked as a coordinator in that field for years and the couple of whole house installations that we did, the consumer was not happy.

Sometimes, you are better off just getting a replacement for what you have.  As I said before, these units are great, but I would put either in a sun room, finished attic or basement -addition that isn't connected to the whole house heat/ac.

Basically what we would be doing.  Though if I can expand it how I want it may end up around 650 sq ft.  We were kicking back and forth about a second unit or mini split and the split was cheaper but runs all electric and we'd lose out on the cheaper natural gas in the winter.

2 minutes ago, DiPros said:

It's a brand new installation, not a replacement.  Permits, new electric, mounting.  Do you have drywall?  Would not recommend if you have plaster unless you have another contractor that specializes in that.  Not trying to talk you out of it, but I worked as a coordinator in that field for years and the couple of whole house installations that we did, the consumer was not happy.

Sometimes, you are better off just getting a replacement for what you have.  As I said before, these units are great, but I would put either in a sun room, finished attic or basement -addition that isn't connected to the whole house heat/ac.

We have drywall, and our circut breaker is full but he was going to disconnect the electric baseboards and install a piggy back breaker. Something simple. 

Its drywall.

We have a built in to the wall window AC unit downstairs, and a smaller built in window AC in our bedroom upstairs. Thats our only cooling for the house. Which works pretty fine downstairs. But the upstairs bedroom AC only cools the room its in. Doesnt go across the hall to the boys' room.

Our main reason for wanting these though was to replace our heating. Electric baseboard was too damn expensive. So we got a coal stove in the basement which works great, but we are just so sick of the dirt covering our entire basement, floors, wall, ceiling and every little thing we have down there. We cleaned it up this year and I never wanted to have to do that again. But it looks like we will be.

6 minutes ago, rambo said:

Not sure what kind of electrical work would be required or if you have room on your existing panel but yeah that seems really steep.  We are going to finish our upstairs at some point but need HVAC up there and were quoted like 3.5k for a mini-split a few years ago.  Granted we'd have to probably run another panel up for electric which can get expensive, but still...they are trying to rip you off.

Not sure about the rip off. We asked a different company last year who had them displayed at the bloomsburg fair. A brief description of our house and our needs and he said probably ball park 12k. 

Now we had this different company come, look, measure, etc and he went home and wrote it all up and it also game out in that range. So thats 2 for 2 in that ballpark now. 

Its disappointing because id like to think we can get a cheaper quote somewhere but after being told this twice now I think we are giving up on the idea.

1 minute ago, HazletonEagle said:

We have drywall, and our circut breaker is full but he was going to disconnect the electric baseboards and install a piggy back breaker. Something simple. 

Its drywall.

We have a built in to the wall window AC unit downstairs, and a smaller built in window AC in our bedroom upstairs. Thats our only cooling for the house. Which works pretty fine downstairs. But the upstairs bedroom AC only cools the room its in. Doesnt go across the hall to the boys' room.

Our main reason for wanting these though was to replace our heating. Electric baseboard was too damn expensive. So we got a coal stove in the basement which works great, but we are just so sick of the dirt covering our entire basement, floors, wall, ceiling and every little thing we have down there. We cleaned it up this year and I never wanted to have to do that again. But it looks like we will be.

Maybe consider swapping coal out for a pellet stove?  My brother actually put a coal stove in his basement a few years back because he was electric heat.

3 minutes ago, rambo said:

Basically what we would be doing.  Though if I can expand it how I want it may end up around 650 sq ft.  We were kicking back and forth about a second unit or mini split and the split was cheaper but runs all electric and we'd lose out on the cheaper natural gas in the winter.

You could also check the specs on the unit you just replaced.  There's a calculation you can do (a manual J if I remember right) where your present system may be able to handle the added sq. footage if you'd like to take advantage of the natural gas savings and you don't mind maybe giving up some closet space to get ductwork, or the piping if you're hot water baseboard.  Can compare, anyway, but yes a mini split would also work great.

5 minutes ago, rambo said:

Maybe consider swapping coal out for a pellet stove?  My brother actually put a coal stove in his basement a few years back because he was electric heat.

Ive been under the impression that pellett is still pretty dirty. I wont spend a few thousand on a new stove to still have to deal with filling, dumping ashes, etc. The coal stove works fine and is cheap. I just really hate knowing after 2 full days of work wiping literally every single thing off that its just gonna be that way again by next spring. We have a 1/2 of our basement finished and its a completely unusable space. 

Just now, DiPros said:

You could also check the specs on the unit you just replaced.  There's a calculation you can do (a manual J if I remember right) where your present system may be able to handle the added sq. footage if you'd like to take advantage of the natural gas savings and you don't mind maybe giving up some closet space to get ductwork, or the piping if you're hot water baseboard.  Can compare, anyway, but yes a mini split would also work great.

We ran it by our HVAC guy (who we and my wife's family go way back with) he said we'd need another unit.  He said the duct work can be run pretty easily but not feasible with one.  I trust the guy.  He's managed to salvage our old AC unit for years before this year.

3 minutes ago, HazletonEagle said:

Ive been under the impression that pellett is still pretty dirty. I wont spend a few thousand on a new stove to still have to deal with filling, dumping ashes, etc. The coal stove works fine and is cheap. I just really hate knowing after 2 full days of work wiping literally every single thing off that its just gonna be that way again by next spring. We have a 1/2 of our basement finished and its a completely unusable space. 

Ah...My brother keeps the coal in his garage which is big enough for two cars and coal storage.

4 minutes ago, HazletonEagle said:

Ive been under the impression that pellett is still pretty dirty. I wont spend a few thousand on a new stove to still have to deal with filling, dumping ashes, etc. The coal stove works fine and is cheap. I just really hate knowing after 2 full days of work wiping literally every single thing off that its just gonna be that way again by next spring. We have a 1/2 of our basement finished and its a completely unusable space. 

I'm not sure about the pellets being dirtier.  Sorry HE, electric baseboard is the worst!!  I certainly understand you not wanting to use it and figuring out a more economical way.

3 minutes ago, rambo said:

We ran it by our HVAC guy (who we and my wife's family go way back with) he said we'd need another unit.  He said the duct work can be run pretty easily but not feasible with one.  I trust the guy.  He's managed to salvage our old AC unit for years before this year.

24 years is pretty good though rambo!!!!   Always good to know someone in the biz, cause there is a lot of rip offs out there as well.

 

9 minutes ago, rambo said:

Ah...My brother keeps the coal in his garage which is big enough for two cars and coal storage.

we dont have one. There is a window in our driveway to the unifinished half of the basement. Coal gets dumped in that window directly in to a gigantic coal bin ( more like a room) my FIL and I built.

But from there I carry buckets of coal to the stove in the finished side because thats where the chimney is. 

Ashes get dumped in pales back on the unfinished side.

So we get black coal dust by the coal bin when I get it in the bucket to carry over. and the whole finished side with the stove from dumping it in to the hopper.

And by the pales, there is gray ash dust from dumping the ashes.

And the whole process ends up covering the entire basement. Its a mess. Literally everything down there gets turned black. 

7 minutes ago, DiPros said:

I'm not sure about the pellets being dirtier.  Sorry HE, electric baseboard is the worst!!  I certainly understand you not wanting to use it and figuring out a more economical way.

I didnt say dirtier, but still dirty nonetheless. 

Ductless seemed the best combination of economical and clean. But its apparently too expensive for our budget to install. So I guess coal it will be.

16 minutes ago, HazletonEagle said:

Ive been under the impression that pellett is still pretty dirty. I wont spend a few thousand on a new stove to still have to deal with filling, dumping ashes, etc. The coal stove works fine and is cheap. I just really hate knowing after 2 full days of work wiping literally every single thing off that its just gonna be that way again by next spring. We have a 1/2 of our basement finished and its a completely unusable space. 

Are you close to a gas line?  You could weigh the cost of getting hooked up and purchasing a gas boiler with running new piping where you current baseboards already are?  Oil is cheap right now too, but as you know, a volatile market.

 

Or, do you think Wood stove would be cleaner than the coal.  

2 minutes ago, DiPros said:

24 years is pretty good though rambo!!!!   Always good to know someone in the biz, cause there is a lot of rip offs out there as well.

 

We had him out after we bought the place to check it out and he said it was on its last legs 4 years ago.  It was the original unit.  Home inspector said the same which gave us a little leverage to get the house price down.  We knew it was coming but were prepared.

A few days ago we came back from walking the dogs.  Some guy was looking down into our HVAC unit.

dude: Are you the original owner?

paco: No

dude: Oh, so you don't know if this is the original AC

paco: No

Then he walked away.  So strange

 

TL:DR: Stay the F off my property HazeltonEagle

 

3 minutes ago, paco said:

A few days ago we came back from walking the dogs.  Some guy was looking down into our HVAC unit.

dude: Are you the original owner?

paco: No

dude: Oh, so you don't know if this is the original AC

paco: No

Then he walked away.  So strange

 

TL:DR: Stay the F off my property HazeltonEagle

 

LOL.   You probably know this, and that stranger didn't, but there's a data plate on the unit with model and serial number.   The serial number first two numbers- usually, in most cases, is the year it was manufactured.  

Just now, DiPros said:

LOL.   You probably know this, and that stranger didn't, but there's a data plate on the unit with model and serial number.   The serial number first two numbers- usually, in most cases, is the year it was manufactured.  

I'm not telling HE that.  Get the F out of my yard

I did work today, but then I got a beer.  Now I'm on wine, talking HVAC and household issues I simply do not care to deal with-EVER!  I just want to light a match to the place, yet I know I can't do that.  It's just hot already and wish I could just flip a switch and feel good.  I think it's going to take awhile.  I'll figure it all out.

A silver lining with this virus was being here, in the compound, with Mr. Di spending lots of time with him.   One day I asked him if he would show me how to use the circular saw.  He said no.

I did get the push mower started, so there's that!  I don't like the big mowers in my tiny front lawn, I like to do that piece myself. 

1 hour ago, rambo said:

I just replaced my A/C (which was toast) and did the gas furnace, too, since they were both 24 years old with mid-grade systems (not builder grade but not premium either) for less.  The A/C is a 16 SEER and furnace is 96 efficiency rating.  Should get $150 credit from the electric co for the A/C and $500 from the gas company for the furnace, too.

my townhouse doesn't have the necessary access to do the higher efficiency furnaces, so I went with an 80%. I think even if I could have gone to something in the 90s, payback would stil lbe 7-8 years which is longer than I plan to be here. 1986 build and home inspection said it appears to be the original back when I bought.

Similarly, went with the lower EER condensing unit because our cooling season would have put a high end efficiency at close to 10 years before the energy savings pay off the difference in cost. 

53 minutes ago, HazletonEagle said:

I dont get it.... We can buy a 4 zone system for like 5,000 dollars. How the hell is installation so much for what many people can DIY? We were expecting 8-10000. Not 12500. 

 

the DIY is more up in the air. There is a lot of refrigerant piping to be ran, with bends/etc, and braising at a handful of locations. Plus gauges and other stuff to check the refrigerant levels in the system. Stuff that most people aren't familiar/experienced with doing and probably runs a lot of cost in tools for something that will be a one time job (if lucky enough to not F anything up). Plus running and tying in electrical which can become very difficult depending on what someones infrastructure and panel looks like.

4 hours ago, HazletonEagle said:

We were told over 12.5k for the Bryant system.  Didn't even get the Mitsubishi quote.

Not doing it. 

I looked into Mitsubishi. To do my entire 2500 sqf house with the optimum smart system using my ducts was over 25k. If I dumbed it down to save money it was about 18k. It's the most expensive system money can buy. 

17 minutes ago, MR-CYN said:

I looked into Mitsubishi. To do my entire 2500 sqf house with the optimum smart system using my ducts was over 25k. If I dumbed it down to save money it was about 18k. It's the most expensive system money can buy. 

Ive come to learn mitsubishi is the cats meow of ductless. However, my house is less than half the size of yours and we didnt even get the mitsu price. He only sent the Bryant quote. Probably realized from our discussion that there was no way we were going for that mitsu price.

2 hours ago, Agent23 said:

my townhouse doesn't have the necessary access to do the higher efficiency furnaces, so I went with an 80%. I think even if I could have gone to something in the 90s, payback would stil lbe 7-8 years which is longer than I plan to be here. 1986 build and home inspection said it appears to be the original back when I bought.

Similarly, went with the lower EER condensing unit because our cooling season would have put a high end efficiency at close to 10 years before the energy savings pay off the difference in cost. 

the DIY is more up in the air. There is a lot of refrigerant piping to be ran, with bends/etc, and braising at a handful of locations. Plus gauges and other stuff to check the refrigerant levels in the system. Stuff that most people aren't familiar/experienced with doing and probably runs a lot of cost in tools for something that will be a one time job (if lucky enough to not F anything up). Plus running and tying in electrical which can become very difficult depending on what someones infrastructure and panel looks like.

I think if youre a little handy you can DIY some systems. A bunch on Lowes and Home Depot are specifically marked as DIY kits, as well as a brand called Mr Cool (though this is a budget brand that up till recently is only offering a single zone system). My understanding is that DIY units come pre-charged so you dont have to do the technical Freon stuff. 

I had a convenient location planned out for the outdoor unit to be able to run easily on the same wall to all 4 indoor units. So I wouldnt need to run piping inside walls at all. Itd be easily on the outside of the house until the cutout it comes through to get in to the inside unit. 

It seems simple enough from the various youtuve videos Ive watched, but Im not handy so I draw the line at cutting holes all the way through to the outside of my house cause if something goes wrong, that feels like a fix too complicated for my lack of handy man skills. 

 

Yeah as really you have to be there and/or do it yourself in order to notice it. And that it may be something else when you do things by yourselves in person there. Not much of an outdoors person myself I confess!