7 minutes ago, The Norseman said:

I'm tired of liberals telling everyone else how to think.  So yea, maybe I did. 

I also don’t think you know what the word inclusive means...

24 minutes ago, The Norseman said:

Help me?  You are sorry that you can't help me see things like you do?  Do you have any idea how arrogant and stupid that sounds? 

Trump's actual message is maybe the most inclusive message in recent history.  His demeanor is rotten at times and he says stupid things that cause offense and division...I see that for sure.  However, there is overwhelming evidence that sloppy talk will be just as bad under Biden.  Trump's message is about making all Americans prosperous, making our nation strong and self sufficient again and bringing back working class jobs to the United States in order to provide domestic prosperity for all.  All of these things were happening prior to Covid and they are recovering now.  

Contrast that with Obama who spoke very eloquently about "unity" while driving enormous racial division in this country.  Obama had a golden opportunity as an African American to bring this country together.  Instead, he chose to pander to the black community, and side with them (even when when our legal system found them in the wrong).  He did this all while cozying up to the most divisive black leadership in our country.  While doing this, he completely neglected the working class white community who had put their trust in him to bring "Change".  Meanwhile, working class jobs and communities continued to deteriorate.  Obama's divisive behavior is exactly what created a space for Trump.  

The difference between you and I is that you care more about how a president acts and what they say...you like polish.  I like results.  

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! 

    

3 minutes ago, Dave Moss said:

I also don’t think you know what the word inclusive means...

The fact that you want to continue label me as a dumb Trumpbot tells me all I need to know about your definition of inclusive

1 minute ago, The Norseman said:

The fact that you want to continue label me as a dumb Trumpbot tells me all I need to know about your definition of inclusive

There’s nothing about his message that’s inclusive.  It’s actually the complete opposite. 

12 hours ago, ToastJenkins said:

Fdr is our worst president ever

He's consistently ranked around the top-5 presidents of all time by historians who run the ideological gambit.

Your "smartest man in the room" act gets old fast.

Speaking of FDR, Eric Rauchway wrote a book called Winter War where he discusses the interregnum period between FDR’s election in November and his inauguration in March.  Might be relevant in about five weeks

8 hours ago, Diehardfan said:

LOL she will be confirmed before the election. I'd love to hear how that would cause a delay though.

I think Senate rules give a precedent to impeachment, so the idea would be to initiate impeachment as a way to push back the confirmation.

1 hour ago, The Norseman said:

Help me?  You are sorry that you can't help me see things like you do?  Do you have any idea how arrogant and stupid that sounds? 

I don't care. There is nothing inaccurate in the statement. If you cannot see how Trump's lack of leadership have fanned division in this nation over the last 3-4 years, then there's just nothing I can say that will overcome that sort of myopia. 

If you want to take that as condescending, then it is what it is. It's out of my control, and there's nothing I can say that will change it. 

A nation of 330 million people is not going to be innately unified. A nation of our size and complexity is always going to have divisions and disagreements along cultural lines.

An actual leader of the whole nation works earnestly to bridge those divides and to keep the nation united. Trump's entire strategy is "ef all the people who didn't vote for me, I'm only going to cater to red states and the 63 million who supported me". Of course the 63 million - including morons like diehard who are cheering on the destruction of any sort of unity - are going to support that. But when you become president you're president of 330 million, not 63 million.

Trump has never made that evolution in his thinking. Because he can't.

He doesn't even care about the 63 million. He cares about what the 63 million can do for him (vote). That's it.

If you cannot see any of that, if none of that rings as true to you, then we're simply operating from a different set of facts. I think more people are operating from my set however.

 

Quote

Trump's actual message is maybe the most inclusive message in recent history. 

yeah we're not operating from the same set of facts. PLEASE show me where he has been "inclusive". 

1 minute ago, JohnSnowsHair said:

I don't care. There is nothing inaccurate in the statement. If you cannot see how Trump's lack of leadership have fanned division in this nation over the last 3-4 years, then there's just nothing I can say that will overcome that sort of myopia. 

If you want to take that as condescending, then it is what it is. It's out of my control, and there's nothing I can say that will change it. 

A nation of 330 million people is not going to be innately unified. A nation of our size and complexity is always going to have divisions and disagreements along cultural lines.

An actual leader of the whole nation works earnestly to bridge those divides and to keep the nation united. Trump's entire strategy is "ef all the people who didn't vote for me, I'm only going to cater to red states and the 63 million who supported me". Of course the 63 million - including morons like diehard who are cheering on the destruction of any sort of unity - are going to support that. But when you become president you're president of 330 million, not 63 million.

Trump has never made that evolution in his thinking. Because he can't.

He doesn't even care about the 63 million. He cares about what the 63 million can do for him (vote). That's it.

If you cannot see any of that, if none of that rings as true to you, then we're simply operating from a different set of facts. I think more people are operating from my set however.

 

yeah we're not operating from the same set of facts. PLEASE show me where he has been "inclusive". 

Do you think Obama didn't take this same approach though?  I would argue that in many ways he was worse, he didn't even support the white working class that voted for him.  You're right, Trump takes care of his constituents and could give an ef about everyone else.  But we disagree on the reason.  You think that he has purposefully caused the division and likes the county divided.  I would argue that this phenomenon of the left not accepting Republican presidents has been going on since Bush 2 won the electoral college but the popular vote.   I don't think there is anything that Trump could have done to get the left on board to create a bi-partisan agenda.  I mean, Obama couldn't do it, could he?

The problem with Trump is that he actually says all the things that he thinks.  He doesn't seem to have the good sense to put a filter on things.  In this way, he HAS caused division and I both see and accept that.  But this notion that his top line message is divisive is inaccurate.  Loving our country and wanting to make it better together is not divisive.  

1 minute ago, mr_hunt said:

because it may very well be the supreme court that has to decide this election

6 minutes ago, The Norseman said:

Do you think Obama didn't take this same approach though?  I would argue that in many ways he was worse, he didn't even support the white working class that voted for him.  You're right, Trump takes care of his constituents and could give an ef about everyone else.  But we disagree on the reason.  You think that he has purposefully caused the division and likes the county divided.  I would argue that this phenomenon of the left not accepting Republican presidents has been going on since Bush 2 won the electoral college but the popular vote.   I don't think there is anything that Trump could have done to get the left on board to create a bi-partisan agenda.  I mean, Obama couldn't do it, could he?

The problem with Trump is that he actually says all the things that he thinks.  He doesn't seem to have the good sense to put a filter on things.  In this way, he HAS caused division and I both see and accept that.  But this notion that his top line message is divisive is inaccurate.  Loving our country and wanting to make it better together is not divisive.  

Ok, I officially take back what I said about you not being lalone. He's the only one who could've said something as stupid as "Trump has the most inclusive message in recent history" with a straight face, and then continued to double down on it like this. Welcome back, sir. Enjoy the lonely brain cell and coke gifs that are in your future.

8 minutes ago, The Norseman said:

Do you think Obama didn't take this same approach though?  I would argue that in many ways he was worse, he didn't even support the white working class that voted for him.  You're right, Trump takes care of his constituents and could give an ef about everyone else.  But we disagree on the reason.  You think that he has purposefully caused the division and likes the county divided.  I would argue that this phenomenon of the left not accepting Republican presidents has been going on since Bush 2 won the electoral college but the popular vote.   I don't think there is anything that Trump could have done to get the left on board to create a bi-partisan agenda.  I mean, Obama couldn't do it, could he?

The problem with Trump is that he actually says all the things that he thinks.  He doesn't seem to have the good sense to put a filter on things.  In this way, he HAS caused division and I both see and accept that.  But this notion that his top line message is divisive is inaccurate.  Loving our country and wanting to make it better together is not divisive.  

Wrong.  Trump rambles and says stupid sheet, so what he says sounds authentically stupid, but he definitely doesn't say all the the things he thinks.  If he did, he would've told the American people that Covid was a deadly virus that was more dangerous than the flu.  Trump says what's convenient for him.  Whatever helps him at that moment.  He's been busted over and over again saying something different behind closed doors (soldiers are suckers and losers, the Woodward book, etc.) but somehow his cult members never understand that his style is an act.  It's a well honed act because he's been working on it for decades, but it's still an act.  

Also, in no way shape or form does Trump "love our country".  People that love their country don't trash American heroes because they disagree with them politically, or call dead soldiers suckers or run a charity that withholds funds from military causes, or fake a bone spurs injury to get out of serving, etc.  He's without a doubt the least patriotic President we've ever had.

 

12 minutes ago, VanHammersly said:

Wrong.  Trump rambles and says stupid sheet, so what he says sounds authentically stupid, but he definitely doesn't say all the the things he thinks.  If he did, he would've told the American people that Covid was a deadly virus that was more dangerous than the flu.  Trump says what's convenient for him.  Whatever helps him at that moment.  He's been busted over and over again saying something different behind closed doors (soldiers are suckers and losers, the Woodward book, etc.) but somehow his cult members never understand that his style is an act.  It's a well honed act because he's been working on it for decades, but it's still an act.  

Also, in no way shape or form does Trump "love our country".  People that love their country don't trash American heroes because they disagree with them politically, or call dead soldiers suckers or run a charity that withholds funds from military causes, or fake a bone spurs injury to get out of serving, etc.  He's without a doubt the least patriotic President we've ever had.

buuuuut, you're voting for Biden, right?

And please stop with the WW1 fallen soldiers story.  It's been refuted by everyone who was there. 

21 minutes ago, we_gotta_believe said:

Ok, I officially take back what I said about you not being lalone. He's the only one who could've said something as stupid as "Trump has the most inclusive message in recent history" with a straight face, and then continued to double down on it like this. Welcome back, sir. Enjoy the lonely brain cell and coke gifs that are in your future.

I love it when you guys preach inclusivity and then do everything in your power to label those who disagree with you as stupid

9 minutes ago, The Norseman said:

buuuuut, you're voting for Biden, right?

So, is this you admitting that Trump doesn't say what he thinks?  Because we both know he doesn't.

12 minutes ago, The Norseman said:

And please stop with the WW1 fallen soldiers story.  It's been refuted by everyone who was there. 

No it hasn't.  Who, besides the lackeys on Trump's staff, have refuted the story?  Not Bolton, that's for sure.  You already lied a couple weeks ago and said Bolton said it never happened, but that isn't at all what Bolton said.  We both know he said it.  Imagine how deep you have to be in the cult to see a story about someone trashing dead soldiers and think "F the soldiers, I need to lie to protect this a-hole".  Truly sick and disgusting.

6 minutes ago, The Norseman said:

I love it when you guys preach inclusivity and then do everything in your power to label those who disagree with you as stupid

I didn't say you were stupid, I said your statement was stupid. But maybe you should stop trying on that shoe, soon enough you'll find one that fits.

probably already posted but romney is toeing the party line. 

4 minutes ago, VanHammersly said:

So, is this you admitting that Trump doesn't say what he thinks?  Because we both know he doesn't.

No it hasn't.  Who, besides the lackeys on Trump's staff, have refuted the story?  Not Bolton, that's for sure.  You already lied a couple weeks ago and said Bolton said it never happened, but that isn't at all what Bolton said.  We both know he said it.  Imagine how deep you have to be in the cult to see a story about someone trashing dead soldiers and think "F the soldiers, I need to lie to protect this a-hole".  Truly sick and disgusting.

No, this is me saying that in your reasons for hating Trump you literally just described Biden.  

Bolton, said he didn't hear those comments and he was there when the decision was made not to attend the event.  The Atlantic story's "anonymous" source also said that Trump didn't want to go to the event because of his hair would get wet.   Bolton said that that was not the reason for the decision not to travel, that it was weather related and that he supported it.  None of the damning details of that Atlantic story have been corroborated by anyone on the record.   

10 minutes ago, mr_hunt said:

probably already posted but romney is toeing the party line. 

Not surprising.  This one's not a pro-Trump/anti-Trump thing.  It's a long game Republican thing.  Also, appointing another justice before the election ensures that Trump loses, so Romney voting for it only helps Trump go down.

9 minutes ago, The Norseman said:

No, this is me saying that in your reasons for hating Trump you literally just described Biden.  

But you're not disputing the fact that Trump says one thing behind closed doors and says another in public, ie the Woodward tapes.  So he doesn't say what he thinks, correct?

10 minutes ago, The Norseman said:

Bolton, said he didn't hear those comments and he was there when the decision was made not to attend the event.  The Atlantic story's "anonymous" source also said that Trump didn't want to go to the event because of his hair would get wet.   Bolton said that that was not the reason for the decision not to travel, that it was weather related and that he supported it.  None of the damning details of that Atlantic story have been corroborated by anyone on the record.   

Bolton said he never heard Trump say it but that it's consistent with Trump's character to say something like that.  And Kelly's the source.   We all know it.  Even Trump.  Trump said it and really is disgusting that you're so adamant about protecting someone who would cavalierly sheet on our soldiers like that (something he's already done multiple times in public).  Trump supporters as a whole truly are the least patriotic people in this country.

2 minutes ago, The Norseman said:

Do you think Obama didn't take this same approach though?  I would argue that in many ways he was worse, he didn't even support the white working class that voted for him.  You're right, Trump takes care of his constituents and could give an ef about everyone else.  But we disagree on the reason.  You think that he has purposefully caused the division and likes the county divided.  I would argue that this phenomenon of the left not accepting Republican presidents has been going on since Bush 2 won the electoral college but the popular vote.   I don't think there is anything that Trump could have done to get the left on board to create a bi-partisan agenda.  I mean, Obama couldn't do it, could he?

The problem with Trump is that he actually says all the things that he thinks.  He doesn't seem to have the good sense to put a filter on things.  In this way, he HAS caused division and I both see and accept that.  But this notion that his top line message is divisive is inaccurate.  Loving our country and wanting to make it better together is not divisive.  

Why do you think he "didn't even support the white working class?" 

"White working class" wages, if we're defining them as whites without a college degree (that's broad, yes, but it's the accepted proxy available to us in these stats) , along with working class wages across all races, have been diverging more and more significantly from the educated/white collar worker class since 1980. It didn't start under Obama, and nothing Obama did accelerated it (or decelerated it, from what I can see).

Separately, you talk frequently about separating Trump's rhetoric from his actions. What actions has he taken that have actually improved the situation for the white working class voter? His rhetoric lays claim to a "blue collar boom", but that is not supported by the numbers.

So he makes an assertion, his supporters rarely fact check it and take it as truth. When challenged, we have TDS. How are we to have a conversation like this?

If you want to have a real conversation, I'm all ears. I would love to have an actual debate about what's actually going on with numbers. 

They're not as rosy as Trump likes to contend. There has not been some amazing rebirth of manufacturing. Yes, it's been growing, but not in a manner particularly different from under Obama (even accounting for starting from the financial crisis):

I don't exactly spot some major boon under Trump, and it was really flat in 2019. Do you see something I do not? Because if you want to talk from the same set of facts, this is one place we have to start.

What other numbers do you want to discuss? 

15 hours ago, The Norseman said:

I hope it makes you feel better to type out these long winded retorts because I honestly have no idea what you're blathering on about.   It also strikes me as odd that you project stupidity on those to have offsetting opinions but you never offer even the slightest amount of variance in your own.  It must be awfully convenient for you to pretend to be 'objective' while constantly trashing one candidate and not voting for the other.  What you call objectivity, I call unproductive. 

You and I have had the discussion countless times that I voted for Gary Johnson in 2016.  At the time I disliked Trump and Hillary and didn't think it made much difference who won.  This time around I dislike Trump and Biden but I think it makes a BIG difference who wins.  Sit on the sidelines and pout about bad candidates all you want....but don't talk trash on the rest of us who have the balls to actually pick a side. 

Trump is a criminal openly defying the law and the constitution. If someone robs your house would you really care to hear from people who want to explain the criminal's side of things?

3 minutes ago, VanHammersly said:

But you're not disputing the fact that Trump says one thing behind closed doors and says another in public, ie the Woodward tapes.  So he doesn't say what he thinks, correct?

Bolton said he never heard Trump say it but that it's consistent with Trump's character to say something like that.  And Kelly's the source.   We all know it.  Even Trump.  Trump said it and really is disgusting that you're so adamant about protecting someone who would cavalierly sheet on our soldiers like that (something he's already done multiple times in public).  Trump supporters as a whole truly are the least patriotic people in this country.

You are making everything into absolutes.  Does Trump ALWAYS say exactly what's on his mind, no...of course not.  Does he do it far too often?  Yes, he does.  I don't know what you're trying to accomplish with this.  

And please spare me the drama about the WW1 comments.  I have been very critical of Trump's comments about McCain.  If the WW1 stuff turns out to be true I will openly condemn that too.  However, today, there is far more evidence that these comments weren't said that otherwise.  Kelly has shown a propensity for anti-Trumpism and assuming he the anonymous source, I'm really not sure what credibility he has.